Kim undecided on Worlds

[Bartek]

DING! DING! DING!
I went back and looked at the protocols because I felt the comment that Cohen was undermarked to be more skate fan-ish than fact driven. Cohen was barely punished for her 2 footed jump (should have been an automatic -1 from each judge and if the judges felt it was egregious, -2, but only 2 judges chose to give her the deduction for it at all, in fact she only got -0.14 negative GOE for it).
Here's the scoring breakdown:
Nagasu: 40.2/29.86 = attention call on the 3Lz take off. PCS breakdown: 7.43/7.07/7.75/7.57/7.5
Cohen: 39.26/30.37 = no attention or wrong edge take off for her 3z, no real negative GOE for the 2 ft jump. PCS breakdown: 7.61/7.14/7.96/7.57/7.68
Flatt: 39.39/29.96 = 3+3 included. PCS breakdown: 7.39/7.18/7.68/7.57/7.64

Actually, looking at the scores, I think Nagasu was undermarked on PCS because based on the objective criteria of SS, she should have won that category HANDS DOWN over the other 2, not been second to Cohen who doesn't have the same power, security, or depth of edge and for Nagasu's SS mark to be that close to Flatt is ridiculous.

Well, I'd actually give Cohen 9's for P/E and I and 8,5 for Ch/C. For me she just have this "wow factor".

 

[pangtongfan]

Cohen even in her prime was not averaging 9 for PE and 8.5 for Ch/C, not even at Nationals in 06 where she skated almost perfectly and which had the usual home inflated Nationals scoring, so why on earth as a past her prime, slower, more choppy, skater not even doing her best performance get it. I mean if you would give her that fine, but dont expect the judges will or should. If there are 2 categories she would score really high in it would be PE and IN, rather than Ch/C. What is so amazing about her choreography, I dont think her programs are anything groundbreaking or that couldnt be done by many other skaters, Sasha just executes them with more style, line, elegance, and better positions than most. Her best programs ever were her 2003-2006 ones minus the 2004 Swan Lake.

 

[Bartek]

Cohen even in her prime was not averaging 9 for PE and 8.5 for Ch/C, not even at Nationals in 06 where she skated almost perfectly and which had the usual home inflated Nationals scoring, so why on earth as a past her prime, slower, more choppy, skater not even doing her best performance get it. I mean if you would give her that fine, but dont expect the judges will or should. If there are 2 categories she would score really high in it would be PE and IN, rather than Ch/C. What is so amazing about her choreography, I dont think her programs are anything groundbreaking or that couldnt be done by many other skaters, Sasha just executes them with more style, line, elegance, and better positions than most. Her best programs ever were her 2003-2006 ones minus the 2004 Swan Lake.

I said I would give her 9's for PE AND In. In her prime (I consider 2003-2004 season to be her prime, she had the best consistency then) she got close to avarege 9 for PE and IN (actually for CH/C too).
http://www.isuresults.com/results/sa2003/
http://www.isuresults.com/results/sc2003/
TAT's Swan Lake is wonderful. This sport is so objective... "Sasha just executes them with more style, line, elegance and better positions than most" - yeah, that's it for me I think. What's so special in her 2010 SP choreography? Everyone's waving their hands in all directions and usually it has nothing to do with the music but she's doing that in connection with the music. She uses her arms to emphasise the high notes just like in her Malaguena program.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

To be fair, that was the 2003-2004 season, when the judges had no idea how to use PCS and COP was still in it's nascent phase.

 

[skfan]

Yes, ITA. However, continuing to compete is a privilege and, to me, is something you have to earn.

Basically, what troubles me is if a skater competes in only 5 competitions in an Olympic cycle (4 Worlds and an Olympics). To me, that is not giving back, regardless of what you have done in the past. People are going to watch the Olympics (and to a lesser extent the Worlds) anyway, so those are not the events that the ISU needs star power to promote.

i don't understand why she owes skating anything. she's made the ISU plenty of money. sure, she made herself money too--even steven, as mathman said.


in fact, i don't understand how any skater owes skating (the ISU?) much of anything. if say, skater X had been badly injured enough to quit before she ever hit the big time, before she earned enough endorsement money or show skating money to recoup even a third of the expenses that have gone into her skating from, say, age 9 to 15, what would 'skating' have done to recognize this skater's efforts and sacrifice-- a blurb on icenetwork announcing skater X has retired? what about all the money, sacrifices skater X and her parents have put into skating, to say nothing of the physical pain that skater X has endured in her youth--can skating 'give back' any of that?



if your answer is skating doesn't owe skater X anything, because nobody made her and her parents pursue this sports, well...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

i don't understand why she owes skating anything. she's made the ISU plenty of money. sure, she made herself money too--even steven, as mathman said.


in fact, i don't understand how any skater owes skating (the ISU?) much of anything. if say, skater X had been badly injured enough to quit before she ever hit the big time, before she earned enough endorsement money or show skating money to recoup even a third of the expenses that have gone into her skating from, say, age 9 to 15, what would 'skating' have done to recognize this skater's efforts and sacrifice-- a blurb on icenetwork announcing skater X has retired? what about all the money, sacrifices skater X and her parents have put into skating, to say nothing of the physical pain that skater X has endured in her youth--can skating 'give back' any of that?



if your answer is skating doesn't owe skater X anything, because nobody made her and her parents pursue this sports, well...

It's frustrating and unfair that you so grossly construe my argument just because you don't like the underlying premise. Here is the point, so if you are going to be so critical at least be fair and criticize my main point:

If you are only competing in Worlds and Olympics, sure that helps the ISU and your figure skating federation. But it is primarily about individual glory (i.e. racking up your total of World titles and Olympic medals). Any skater can do whatever they want, but I like to see skaters participate in events that help promote the sport while they remain eligible. I just don't like a skater showing up to the ISU's premiere event, expecting heavy promotion and great marks, and not have participated in lesser events that undoubtedly struggle with live attendance and viewership. I have never asserted that she hasn't given a lot to the sport, nor is this about the tremendous financial sacrifice. (It's not clear to me how parents' financial sacrifice even benefits the ISU to an extent where it would need to repay injured skaters. I wish the WNBA would repay me for hurting myself playing basketball in HS ) If she wants to just do shows, I have absolutely no problem with that. But then don't only compete in ISU events worthy of advancing your legacy. Again, it's just one opinion people, arguing that competing in GP events would absolutely result in career ending injuries or that not skating in ISU events somehow helps the sport more than skating in them just isn't very convincing.

 

[Jtsmith12]

@drivingmissdaisy I agree 100%

 

[doubleflutz]

If you are only competing in Worlds and Olympics, sure that helps the ISU and your figure skating federation. But it is primarily about individual glory (i.e. racking up your total of World titles and Olympic medals). Any skater can do whatever they want, but I like to see skaters participate in events that help promote the sport while they remain eligible. I just don't like a skater showing up to the ISU's premiere event, expecting heavy promotion and great marks, and not have participated in lesser events that undoubtedly struggle with live attendance and viewership.

That sounds you're saying athletes should have to "give back" to the ISU to be marked fairly. Am I just reading too much into your phrasing? Promotion I suppose I can see, although it's really the networks broadcasting the Olympics and Worlds that control that, but marks? The sport is subjective, but that attitude is completely repugnant. I hope that's not really what you meant.

 

[prettykeys]

drivingmissdaisy's posts in this thread are full of contradictions and assumptions about skaters and their motivations. It's even funnier that of all the other posts addressing her last post, she replies to skfan's and bawwww's about his/her "not addressing her point" even though she fails to address his/her point, either.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

What is repugnant is you insulting my opinion with your name calling. The judges have been very generous with her, essentially awarding her the OGM before Mao had a chance to skate. Turns out she was the best that competition anyway (by a mile), but she has been a great representative for the sport and if you think that doesn't play some role in any skater's mark then I think you are a bit naive. You don't have to look hard for such cases throughout the history of the sport. I used to be very much against "paying your dues" but over time I have started to understand the perspective of the ISU. You have a sport whose popularity is driven by the popularity of its stars, and while those of us on the boards care about the 9th-ranked skater in the US, you average viewer doesn't. It is problematic when you frequently have winners in ISU events like Grand Prixs who will absolutely not factor into the medals at Worlds. It diminishes the importance of those events as a result. You can insult me and say my opinion is ridiculous and has no credibility, but there are people out there who agree (maybe not on this board )

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Well it's frustrating that I am trying to express my opinion and you sit here and say I just bawwwww and contradict myself, when all you do is completely exaggerate any point I try to make. It's not really fair, I don't insult people I'm just trying to state an opinion thatI believe furthers the sport.

 

[skfan]

It's frustrating and unfair that you so grossly construe my argument just because you don't like the underlying premise. Here is the point, so if you are going to be so critical at least be fair and criticize my main point:

If you are only competing in Worlds and Olympics, sure that helps the ISU and your figure skating federation. But it is primarily about individual glory (i.e. racking up your total of World titles and Olympic medals). Any skater can do whatever they want, but I like to see skaters participate in events that help promote the sport while they remain eligible. I just don't like a skater showing up to the ISU's premiere event, expecting heavy promotion and great marks, and not have participated in lesser events that undoubtedly struggle with live attendance and viewership. I have never asserted that she hasn't given a lot to the sport, nor is this about the tremendous financial sacrifice. (It's not clear to me how parents' financial sacrifice even benefits the ISU to an extent where it would need to repay injured skaters. I wish the WNBA would repay me for hurting myself playing basketball in HS ) If she wants to just do shows, I have absolutely no problem with that. But then don't only compete in ISU events worthy of advancing your legacy. Again, it's just one opinion people, arguing that competing in GP events would absolutely result in career ending injuries or that not skating in ISU events somehow helps the sport more than skating in them just isn't very convincing.

where did i say the ISU need to repay parents? i'm just saying, on the whole, the athletes give far more to the sports organized bodies than the organized bodies (USFS, ISU) give back to the athletes.

to re-state, i'm saying skaters give far more to skating as a sport, because it's their parents money and their own joints and future disability on the line, compared to what the sports give back to 99.9% of skaters. just because someone is blessed enough to succeed in the sport, doesn't tilt that ratio in my opinion. skating still owes Ms. Kim and all the other skaters far more than Ms. Kim, MK, the recently retired Joylyn Yang... will ever owe skating in my opinion. far as i'm concerned, no matter what glory or financial rewards they reap, the skaters have already paid in advance--in the long hours at the rink, the painful rehab, all of that. and i consider that as the dearest price paid, not the total in dollars or won or yen that the parents have paid to coaches, choreographers, etc.

and what did you mean by 'expecting heavy promotion and great marks'? are you able to read Ms. Kim's mind? how do you know she feels all this entitlement?

to be perfectly blunt, i prefer Ms. Kim's skating vastly to Ms. Ando's, but I was fuming at the marks after the short and I was happy Ms. Ando won over Ms. Kim's far-from-her-best long program, so don't mistake me for someone so zealotly in Ms. Kim's camp that i'm defending her for that reason.

i don't wish to debate just how many GPs a skater needs to skate in to 'deserve' the opportunity to skate in worlds or olys with you--because to me that's sooooooo far beyond where i stand it's not worth debating. the skaters don't owe the ISU any promotion. the ISU is not some helpless infant--it's perfectly capable of hinting heavily that it wants Ms. Kim to participate in the 4CC before Olys. it's perfectly capable of re-writing its by-laws at anytime to limit the # of GP participants, to require an extra qualifying round at worlds, even to decree, for example, that unless a skater has some sort of medical injury no one who opts out of the GP will be able to skate at worlds.

in short, if one must take sides, then i'm for the skaters, not the federations, just like i was for the NFL players in the NFL lock out rather than the owners, even though i'm aware both sides only want the most profit they can reap out of their investments--because it's the athletes' bodies and their disability on the line and 99% of them won't end up reaping big bucks in exchange for the physical toll on their bodies.


in the ideal world everybody would help each other, that would be great, but i think your view, as i understand it, tilts in favor of those who already hold the better cards. that's all i will say on this topic.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'm a fan of Kim's skating. Ergo, I want to see her skate as much as possible.

I'm a fan of Kim in general. Ergo, I want to see her be happy.

I hope those two aren't mutually exclusive. If they are, I hope she chooses the latter. If the absence of one skater who may or may not have shown up to that event in the first place (it's not as if Kim's gonna skate each GP event), then the sport needs to fix itself.

 

[prettykeys]

What is repugnant is you insulting my opinion with your name calling.

Who are you referring to? I didn't see any name-calling.

Well it's frustrating that I am trying to express my opinion and you sit here and say I just bawwwww and contradict myself, when all you do is completely exaggerate any point I try to make. It's not really fair, I don't insult people I'm just trying to state an opinion thatI believe furthers the sport.

Well, the problem is, is that people addressed a number of your opinions/arguments (re: Sasha, re: TV ratings, etc.) but you ignored them and replied only to skfan's by missing his/her own point.

And hey, if you really do want me to get surgical with your posts here I will do so, just say the word, because it really looks to me like you are going back and forth, equivocating and grasping at straws.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Re: Sasha's marks - There are people who agree with me, and there are those who don't; if you read the posts that's evident. You choose not to read those that think Sasha was undermarked. That's fine, because you disagree with me doesn't make what I have to say less meritorious.

Re: TV Ratings - You cited ONE event (GP Finals last year) that Yuna did not participate in to support your ENTIRE argument that somehow Yuna is not good for TV ratings. You said that "Thanks Yuna for not showing up" then backtracked and said you never suggested she was bad for TV ratings. That's fine, I never felt the need to call you out.

Please do get surgical with my posts if you have the time, I certainly don't think I contradicted myself but it is within the realm of possibility. I just didn't think any topic was "hands off" on this board as long as you tried your best to explain yourself and were respectful to others. Apparently that isn't the case.

 

[YunaBliss]

everybody wants to see Yuna skate more - the ISU, the fans, and her global sponsors like Samsung, and the TV networks.

I would love to see Yuna compete in GP events as well as the worlds.

But if she doesn't, and only competes at the 4cc and the worlds,

1. Is that still better than her not competing at all? Yes.

2. Should she get a lower score for the same performance just because she didn't participate in GP events? Heck No.

I think most everyone here can agree to the above two questions/answers.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

where did i say the ISU need to repay parents? i'm just saying, on the whole, the athletes give far more to the sports organized bodies than the organized bodies (USFS, ISU) give back to the athletes.

to re-state, i'm saying skaters give far more to skating as a sport, because it's their parents money and their own joints and future disability on the line, compared to what the sports give back to 99.9% of skaters. just because someone is blessed enough to succeed in the sport, doesn't tilt that ratio in my opinion. skating still owes Ms. Kim and all the other skaters far more than Ms. Kim, MK, the recently retired Joylyn Yang... will ever owe skating in my opinion. far as i'm concerned, no matter what glory or financial rewards they reap, the skaters have already paid in advance--in the long hours at the rink, the painful rehab, all of that. and i consider that as the dearest price paid, not the total in dollars or won or yen that the parents have paid to coaches, choreographers, etc.

and what did you mean by 'expecting heavy promotion and great marks'? are you able to read Ms. Kim's mind? how do you know she feels all this entitlement?

to be perfectly blunt, i prefer Ms. Kim's skating vastly to Ms. Ando's, but I was fuming at the marks after the short and I was happy Ms. Ando won over Ms. Kim's far-from-her-best long program, so don't mistake me for someone so zealotly in Ms. Kim's camp that i'm defending her for that reason.

i don't wish to debate just how many GPs a skater needs to skate in to 'deserve' the opportunity to skate in worlds or olys with you--because to me that's sooooooo far beyond where i stand it's not worth debating. the skaters don't owe the ISU any promotion. the ISU is not some helpless infant--it's perfectly capable of hinting heavily that it wants Ms. Kim to participate in the 4CC before Olys. it's perfectly capable of re-writing its by-laws at anytime to limit the # of GP participants, to require an extra qualifying round at worlds, even to decree, for example, that unless a skater has some sort of medical injury no one who opts out of the GP will be able to skate at worlds.

in short, if one must take sides, then i'm for the skaters, not the federations, just like i was for the NFL players in the NFL lock out rather than the owners, even though i'm aware both sides only want the most profit they can reap out of their investments--because it's the athletes' bodies and their disability on the line and 99% of them won't end up reaping big bucks in exchange for the physical toll on their bodies.


in the ideal world everybody would help each other, that would be great, but i think your view, as i understand it, tilts in favor of those who already hold the better cards. that's all i will say on this topic.

I respect your opinion and agree on many points.

In general, athletes give more to their sport than they take. I agree. Yuna in particular has given more to the sport than she has received. I agree. You are not some Yuna zealot. I agree. If the ISU really wanted to compel skaters to participate in events they have the power to do so, and they have not done so. I agree. So please don't attack me personally on any of those points.

I think if you are healthy and able to compete in the GP and are planning to compete in a World or Olympic competition, I would like to see that skater participate. Does this apply to a skater who isn't healthy? No. Does this apply to now-retired skaters like Michelle Kwan or Katarina Witt? No. That's all; it isn't an attack on any particular skater, it's just a principle I believe in.

On the topic of marks, here is the gist of what I'm saying:
Marks are not always based solely upon what is done the ice. Let's say you had a skater who, a month before an important competition, hired someone to permanently disable another skater by hitting them in the knee with a blunt object. Now the skater, in this scenario, shows up to a competition and skates great, but is undermarked. Are you outraged? Probably not. Before any of you say I'm accusing Yuna of attacking Nancy Kerrigan, that is not the point I'm trying to make. Outside factors play a role in judging. Some of you think that should never happen, some of you think it's ok under egregious circumstances (Harding), and some think, for better or worse, it happens quite frequently (me).

 

[yangjie]

i think the point is , is it fair that she just skates in 4cc or worlds and not in GPS.

some skaters don't wanna skate in GPS too, but they do.
so why is only kim allowed ?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

But that's not true either. Virtue/Moir only skated in the 4CC/Worlds twice, due to injury. Stephane Lambiel wasn't allowed to skate in the GPs during the Olympic season. Delobel/Schoenfelder and Domnina/Shabalin did that as well. Ryan Bradley didn't compete on the GP circuit at all last year, nor at 4CC.

Is it fair? Yes. Why wouldn't it be?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But that's not true either. Virtue/Moir only skated in the 4CC/Worlds twice, due to injury. Stephane Lambiel wasn't allowed to skate in the GPs during the Olympic season. Delobel/Schoenfelder and Domnina/Shabalin did that as well. Ryan Bradley didn't compete on the GP circuit at all last year, nor at 4CC.

Is it fair? Yes. Why wouldn't it be?

Well, besides Lambiel, none of those skaters cited are headlining acts. The ISU isn't losing sleep over the Ryan Bradley's not showing up to their events, not trying to be rude but it's true. And an injury obviously is an acceptable excuse; no one here has asserted an injured athlete should be forced to compete.