Lysacek out of Grand Prix; at odds with USFS | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Lysacek out of Grand Prix; at odds with USFS

Either I'm confused or this thread is. Two different things are being talked about --- earning extra money on the side and being paid to compete in an ISU competition. It's the latter that is shocking, at least to me. (I agree with Sorcerer.) Just how common is this?
 
...Does anyone know what the system is in Russia nowadays? In the old days, the Soviet Union, East Germany, and other Communist countries completely subsidized their athletes, who were amateur in name only. This is how Katarina Witt was able to stick around for two Olympic cycles and the legendary pairs skater Irina Rodnina for three. Then when the government changed, there was so little help that skaters practically had to smooth out the ice on the rinks themselves, and many skaters and coaches left to work at rinks in other countries. I think the tide has obviously turned again, but I wonder what the extent of government subsidy is these days. Since it's a national goal to excel at Sochi, I'm sure they're devoting everything possible to that end.

Your question merits inquiry. I was alarmed when the Russian federation "encouraged" prominent Russian coaches not to train non-Russian skaters back in the last spring. (Remember P/B wanted to stay with Zhulin but ended up in Detroit?) Although the president of Russian federation later "clarified" that it was not "a requirement," I felt that the implication was clear. That kind of remark only carries weight when you are financed by your federation/state. Power of pursestrings is power to control you.

This is one of the main reasons why I am wary of state-sponsored athletic activities. It is true that private financial arrangement such as corporate sponsorship has certain say over an athlete it sponsors. The arrangement, however, is voluntary. I am not so entirely certain "how free/voluntary" the state sponsored athletes are. Examples abound, as I once saw a documentary in which Shen Xue, as a young athlete, described how difficult it was to live apart from her parents to train. I wonder if her parents had a true freedom to say "no," to the Communist Chinese state. For that matter, how much freedom Wenjing SUI's parents had a say over the "true age" of their daughter? I also read a horror story of East German female swimmers who were forced to take steroid to bulk themselves up.

Even such a promient Chinese Tennis pro, Li Na, took 12 years to have finally severed the financial tie with her federation. It is true that they "financially" supported her, but the federation confiscated, I mean, "claimed" 75% of her prize money. And Li Na was able to sever tie only when she became sufficiently prominent as she was the only Chinese woman to have won a grand slam title (2011 French open).

Examples I enumerated above may appear extreme, but totalitarian/oppressive states can exert control over athletes to promote the state/collective interests over the individual interests.

I am stating those as I am apprehensive about the prospect of the former KGB officer, Vladimir Putin, is set to become Russian PM again in the near future. For that reason, I am interested in what Russian fans have to say about the fiancial arrangement of the current Russian skaters.
 
Either I'm confused or this thread is. Two different things are being talked about --- earning extra money on the side and being paid to compete in an ISU competition. It's the latter that is shocking, at least to me. (I agree with Sorcerer.) Just how common is this?

I, too, am surprised (although I do not fault Lysacek for wanting whatever piece of the pie is up for grabs).

I wonder if this appearance fee issue goes back to before the Grand Prix, when events like Skate America were locally organized, were sponsored by the USFSA, and were expected to be money-makers for all involved. The USFSA rounded up the usual suspects, invited some international stars, and put on a stand-alone show.

But in the modern era :), the ISU has a lot of rules in place. I remember one Skate America in which the field was weak in terms of audience draw and Todd Eldredge volunteered to skate in the gala (for free) just to give the event a ratings boost. The ISU said no dice.

When Michelle Kwan was the big enchilada of U.S. skating, it was assumed (without anyone actually knowing) that she was getting all kinds of perks under the table from the USFSA. The point being, no ‘chelle, no show.

In the present case, I do not think that Lysacek’s participation or lack of it will affect the event’s bottom line, so Evan does not really have any leverage in the deal.
 
I would have expected there to be an ISU rule against it. (There's something wrong with their website so I can't hunt for it... thank heavens!)
 
When Michelle Kwan was the big enchilada of U.S. skating, it was assumed (without anyone actually knowing) that she was getting all kinds of perks under the table from the USFSA. The point being, no ‘chelle, no show.

In the present case, I do not think that Lysacek’s participation or lack of it will affect the event’s bottom line, so Evan does not really have any leverage in the deal.

Considering who his people are (mainly the same peeps as MK had in the height of her career) it wouldn't surprise me if he have very little personal involvement in the dealing and that he was letting agents/coaches/whoever to negotiate... hence the "extremely trained" comment... in other words "I felt ready, but they told me no go." lol but again we'll never know and folks will vilify one side or the other based on personal biases...
 
Ah, to only return to the good old days when figure skaters competed for the opportunity of representing their country in international competition. Money, endorsements, and all that stuff just wasn't in the mix, and in my opinion, those skaters were among the greatest to ever lace up skates.

Lysacek sounds as though he's in it for the money. Perhaps he feels entitled to take this view, as he is the reigning Olympic gold medalist. It's disappointing, anyway.
 
So I'm late to the discussion but here are my thoughts. Evan shouldn't have let the USFSA submit his name for Grand Prix events if he wasn't committed to skating. The USFSA shouldn't have submitted his name with out a firm commitment. It's just bad for the sport, and in the US the figure skating doesn't need any bad news.

As far as the money goes - the prize money, points and prestige should be enough for elite skaters to appear at the Grand Prix events. I heard once that the US may be getting new Sr B level events. I could see a rationale for giving top skaters appearance fees for events like that, as they establish a reputation, but it shouldn't be allowed for Grand Prix level events, IMHO. Regarding use of his image, I would say the the USFSA should have a right to use the image of any skaters scheduled to appear in its events. I know it's a business, but it's also a non profit organization that promotes all level of skating across the country. It's not the same as Coca Cola or even SOI using his image.

I've been a fan of Evan for years, ever since he was a young skater coming up. Sorry to say this does make me think less of him.
 
To argue out of the other side of my mouth: Grand Prix fees are not what they used to be, IIRC. I still agree with ivy, though.
 
Ah, to only return to the good old days when figure skaters competed for the opportunity of representing their country in international competition. Money, endorsements, and all that stuff just wasn't in the mix, and in my opinion, those skaters were among the greatest to ever lace up skates.

Well, yes and no. Dorothy Hamill won the U.S. novice title at age 12 and promptly signed to skate in a Champions on Ice show at Madison Square Garden. Immediately upon winning the Olympics she signed with Ice Capades, eventually buying it. She famously said, about the 1976 Olympics, "it was either get gold and join Ice Capades or get silver and go back to Connecticut and get a job as a secretary."

Sonja Henie skated with one eye on Holliwood. She was there in a flash after her last Olympic win, and ended up parlaying her skating fame into a fifty million dollar film career. Janet Lynn signed with Ice Follies the instant her "amateur" career ended. Her contract of 1.5 million dollars made her the world's highest paid female athlete.
 
Ah, to only return to the good old days when figure skaters competed for the opportunity of representing their country in international competition. Money, endorsements, and all that stuff just wasn't in the mix...Lysacek sounds as though he's in it for the money.

Yeah the good old days were great, when parents took out 2nd and 3rd mortgages on their homes, worked odd jobs, lived in separate places, practically bankrupted themselves an suffered poor health in some cases so their kid could pursue a dream just long long enough to become good before quitting for lack of funds. All warm fuzzy memories there. Money never came into the mix at all...Give me a break. This looking at the past through rose colored glasses is getting a little precious.

Lysacek seems to be the particular pet target of a fairly large number of people here for actions which are not exclusive to him. If he's guilty of anything, it's misjudging the financial landscape of skating and how he might partake in that. He's not some sort of criminal thug like Mike Tyson. Kwan's a virtual saint so she gets a pass despite the fact the she skipped the GP for years so she could make mountains of cash doing specials while still maintaining her eligibility. She was making more money than the actual declared pros at the time. Kurt Browning also made huge amounts of money as an "amateur". Most of your are probably too young to remember how absolutely HUGE he was 20 years ago. He was a national hero in Canada and pretty darn popular in the US also. Money was being thrown at him like it was nothing. But again, he's a saint and thus above criticism. Yu-Na is of course the second coming and Plushenko is some sort of invincible warrior, so we can't criticize them for making mad amounts of cash either. No, we can only direct all our sanctimonious ire at one person as an indirect outlet for the privately held belief among many that his signature accomplishment was undeserved.

In reality, any skater who makes it to the level of success Evan achieved has to take these financial factors into consideration. That post championship period is likely the peak of their individual earning potential. Everything is downhill from there once the next big name comes along. Every Olympic champ faces the same issues. Deep debt, loyalty to family who sacrificed for you, concern over long term financial security,

Carol Heiss made movies after retiring. Her dad was a baker, not exactly big money. She had to set a foundation for herself. Peggy Fleming made the first sustained big money off her success since Sonja Henie. She had to, her dad literally died to help give her the training she needed to succeed. She had a mother and sisters to help support and a husband in med school. Peggy was the breadwinner for her whole family for years after her OGM. It all looked glamorous, but she was on the road week after week, performing, shooting tv specials, doing press and promotional work. Her memoir details the amount of work she had to do and the strain she felt to honor her family for the sacrifices they made for her. Dorothy Hamill was in much the same boat when she retired, also at 19. They could have all continued competing and, at least in Peggy's case, had an interest in doing so. But money worries set their course. Who knows what Evan's financial motivations are. He may also be looking out family and not just himself.

Not every skater has the skill and talent to go on to become a surgeon like Albright or Thomas. For most, they have forgone enough formal education that it no longer seems like a viable option. Skating is their trade and they have every right to pursue it and make whatever living from it they can manage.
 
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Kurt Browning also made huge amounts of money as an "amateur". Most of your are probably too young to remember how absolutely HUGE he was 20 years ago. He was a national hero in Canada and pretty darn popular in the US also. Money was being thrown at him like it was nothing. But again, he's a saint and thus above criticism.

Well, he's actually a skategod, but we'll take saint. And he wrote in his book that - at the time - none of the big shots within skating were too keen on his money making... and it was his agent that did a lot of everything and Kurt was left dealing with the aftermath...

and he competed in the age before the internetz. he got a lot of negative comments this past year for not bowwing to Joubert, not speaking well of Plushenko... and apparently laughing at a joke people took offense to. So he's still the rogue of 20 years ago... just a little older... with bad knees :laugh:
 
Ok, it's very late here and I should be asleep, so please forgive if these thoughts are still kind of vague, but I'm with Spun Silver and others who are just surprised that anyone could be paid just to come compete in an ISU competition -- which after all is part of a series which has a finite number of competitors and which affects rankings and invitations to a final competition in the series, etc. In other words, if SA were still a stand alone competition, I could see it being "anything goes" because it wouldn't affect much beyond the competition itself. But that's no longer the case with SA, only a certain number of slots are available for not just this comp but also for the whole series, yada yada as we all know. So to me it just seems strange that some competitiors could be paid just to show up -- because one athlete's participation means that others from his/her own country may not be able to go, the standings will be affected, and so on.

Front-end money just to appear and compete adds another factor, then, and means that an athlete saying, "I'm trained and ready" may not in fact be saying JUST that s/he is trained and ready, but that s/he is trained and ready IF the price is right. And it would be nice, I think, if that process were open/known/transparent. Just so I'd know as a fan that appearance fees/differential compensation for different competitors has played a part in what I'm seeing. More practically, if I were hoping to see certain skaters, I'd also consider whether I think it's realistic that the budget for the event is such that the ones I want to see will be paid enough to come.

I should be able to know what I'm seeing and for an event that's part of a series and which accumulates rankings for a final competition, I should know if one event somehow differs from another in how the entries were determined. After all, if fees to appear are part of the equation, then that's one more factor that can be used to strategize for the series -- one skater might know that a strong rival is going to be paid well to go to a particular competition, so they try to get in another. That already happens with the GP series, of course -- they try to spread the strong skaters out during the series and bring them together for the final -- but again, IF this is a factor in determining the makeup of the competition, it seems to me it should be a transparent one.

For me, all this is aside from concerns about whether international elite athletes are truly amateurs or whether they are making money AT ALL in any way from their sport -- I don't fault Evan for wanting to make money in skating or for feeling that as an OGM he has some clout/potential financial draw. However, I would VERY MUCH like to know ALL the criteria an athlete might consider when deciding on entering a competition -- if differential fees for athletes are one of the considerations, I'd like to know, and I want to know if the fees are the same or not for all the comps in the series, etc.

And I guess maybe I'm learning that here -- so do indeed all the GPs offer different appearance fees for different athletes?
 
If all Evan wants is money he is dumb to return to amateur anyway. I am sure he is getting more on Stars on Ice than he will ever get for the USFSA or ISU. He has other shows I am sure he could participate in during the fall and winter, and other promotional activities he could be doing while he is still a known name in the U.S (which unlike say Michelle Kwan will be a relatively short window and one he needs to exploit). The ISU are probably just as happy he stays gone, he is not an asset to them of any kind. No way on planet Earth they pay him any kind of big money to return. His gravy period with the USFSA ended a few years back, ironically though his biggest titles came after that. Abbott was the USFSA's favorite in both 09 and 2010 but he couldnt deliver for them, and now he is being tossed by the wayside as well. I am sure they are eternally grateful to Evan winning them a World and Oly Gold which nobody expected, but they now would most likely want to see their younger skaters emerge and grow, then dish out big dollars just for a past champion who has already peaked and overachieved as an amateur, and clearly wont be a medal threat in Sochi at age 28 on a beat up old body.

Perhaps he is wise to pull the plug on his whole comeback idea which likely wont go well from any respect (competitively or otherwise) and return to his lucrative life as the lead performer on Stars on Ice, which wont last forever, especialy as the show will probably go bankrupt before the decade are out the way things are going. Now is the time to make as much money as possible for being famous and milk his OGM (and not see the American public who are mostly non die hard skating fans, see that he basically won it by peaking against a weak and disjointed field when they see him 2 years later losing to Patrick Chan by 40-50 points in competition, must let them think he is so great and unbeatable because he won OGM which is far from the truth in reailty) so he can be set for life. As the money is obviously his main priority anyway, that is what he should be doing, and returning to amateur competition wont do that for him.
 
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Perhaps he is wise to pull the plug on his whole comeback idea which likely wont go well from any respect (competitively or otherwise) ...

The reason been used to pull the plug was innovative though not wise at all. It backfired at him.
 
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Are we sure that what was at issue was an "appearance fee" for Skate America?

The only information we have is from the Harsh article, where is was mentioned that "in the days when the USFSA was flush with television money" top skaters got six figure deals with USFSA for package deals that included participation in USFS and ISU events as well as for making public appearances and promoting the sport in general.

In the present "non-flush" era, that's out the window.
 
That's a fair point. It may be about additional funding for training above and beyond the standard contractual levels USFSA are currently prepared to offer. On the flip side, USFSA may have wanted him to commit more time to a promotional role than he was willing to give under the terms of the contract they were negotiating. They may have wanted a commitment to compete in future events this season or next (perhaps team events given their upcoming inclusion in Sochi). It could have been any number of factors. Contract disputes rarely come down to one issue. It's more often the result of cumulative issues that are often smaller, but build upon each other to prevent a resolution.
 
Even if Plushenko was weaker than he was in 2006 he still was the only one at the Olympics who accomplished quad triples, triple axels and level 3 and 4 spins and steps. Now it just happened to be that at the 2010 Olympics that combo of skills had no value against Lysaceks overvalued all triple SP and FP's with great GOE and high PCS. But now his whole programs are worth less and even though he is saying he has a quad toe and triple axel/triple flip combinations he has decided not to compete, Better to stop competing than show all that your programs was horribly overvalued and leading to jump regression and sport regression and you would lose to Patrick Chan- maybe not by 40 or 50 points but lose anyway and maybe by 15- 20 points. His skating of holding back for GOE still has lots of value.
 
Gmyers, do you have a crystal ball or a time machine? You seem very consistent in confidently making prediction after prediction about what will or will not happen in competitions that have yet to take place. If you have any inside knowledge, can you give me any tips on finding a new job or investing for my retirement? I could also use some good powerball numbers. :)

Seriously, in sports, you can never be certain about what will happen until it happens.

BTW, Plushenko lost absolutely zero technical points for his jumps. He earned full credit for them. What he failed to account for was the COP had changed since 2006. Other skating elements were being given greater weight. His assumption that competing at the same level and with no adjustments would end in the same result were his own fault and not imposed on him by Lysacek. To assert anything otherwise is flatly ridiculous. Further, Lysacek and Plyshenko tied on on PCS in the LP. Evan won based on TES, which burns people up and probably will forever. I say get over it. Evan played the game differently and better in the end. Good strategy is a part of sports. Plushenko is not the first skater to lose a close Olympic contest and he won't be the last. There's more than one way to count to 10. Evan got there with lots of 2s and 1s. Evgeny got there with a couple of 5s. It's our fault as fans if we can't see that and accept it.

Have the rules been adjusted? Yes, and they likely should have been. But that does not counteract Evan's win anymore than the use of factored placements negated the point total system used up to 1980. Would some results flip if different systems were applied? Yes, but that's true in any sport and adjustments to its constituent parts (rules, equipment, participants, etc.).

Assuming that Evan would skate exactly as he did two years ago is shortsighted. Yes he is older, but that does not mean that he can still be competitive, especially given access to more advanced sports medicine practices. Dara Torres is a clear example of that fact. Every time she thinks she's physically done, she finds another way to get better. Dismissing him based on the failures of other comebacks, speculation about his motivation, assumptions about his technical capabilities or personal animus seems like a waste of time.
 
He also got level 4 spins and same level steps as Lysacek. BUt he did a lot by doing a quad triple. Plushenko knew the 2008 and 2009 world champions didn't do quads but thought that if someone did them and didn't make any mistakes like falling they would win. That was wrong. So it would have been smarter of him probably not to do any quads and had a program like the world champions and the person who would win the Olympics but they must have had the placement attitude and did have the Placement attiude because Plushenko talked about the old system where quads mattered the night of the free skate. On the technical mark can't see quad triple two triple axels and high level spins losing to no quad triple. So the system was changed to give Plushnenko type skates more points and lysacekd style programs less points. Because it didn't make sense to do quads anymore. People were talking about Plushenko having definicies like no three jump combo or frontloading but of course not doing a quad was no problem and doing two if you include the SP had no value.
 
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