- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
LOL I don't think he was upset with the *skater* on the top of the podium... just the judges
(though he always said he was never *friends* with Boitano... not sure if that's changed in all this time).
Scott Moir says its a piss off
- Thread starter skateflower
- Start date
LOL I don't think he was upset with the *skater* on the top of the podium... just the judges
(though he always said he was never *friends* with Boitano... not sure if that's changed in all this time).
"one of the greatest dance teams of all time" - I'm not so sure of this. Yes, they have been wildly successful, esp. given how poorly NA dance teams have faired but "one of the greatest of all time", it's too early for that (and I really LIKE D/W)
There's a HUGE difference between disagreeing with the judges on how they scored and accusing them of corrupt judging. One involves saying "I think we could have scored higher" and/or "I don't understand why we scored poorly in this element." The other is saying "The judges are conspiring together make sure Davis and White are winning no matter what" and/or "The judges are accepting money/trading votes/whatever so this team can win."
I think that even though he could have said it more eloquently, I think Scott is talking the former not the latter. And I think that's fine. It's perfectly fine to question how a decision is made and I agree with the earlier poster that it is also reasonable to not hold feelings in. That said, there's also a big difference between "expressing your feelings/disappointment" and "I'm just going to completely rant angrily about the result with no regard for anyone else."
There does seem to be fans that believe that Davis and White seem to be the benefactors or corrupt judging and politicking, which is absolutely laughable because it seems to take a miracle for USFS to acknowledge ice dancing at home.
But it does bother me, seriously, that Davis and White are painted as a team that is getting favoritism or are given marks, especially when Doris and other posters spend a LOT OF TIME explaining why they got the marks they got. Again I think it's reasonable to argue magnitude or question maybe details -- "I think Davis and White should have only been in the lead by 2 or 3 points" or "I don't agree that they should have gotten that much GOE or any GOE" -- but I think it's uncalled for to dismiss their victory to some vague "they got it because of politics/corrupt judging" speculation and providing no facts to back up that case.
And I think while Scott is maybe putting a subtle dig at his teammates, he's definitely not saying, "Davis and White are the benefactors of corrupt judging" either.
AMEN! This year, I prefer V/M to D/W. Last year it was reversed. I think they're pretty well matched. Actually, I'm kinda glad that one of these two teams finally said something. I was getting tired of the "we're best buddies and training together makes us better blah, blah, blah". After a while, I just tune it out. Don't get me wrong, I don't want controversy but rather, I want honesty. Tell me how you feel and dance like you feel.
D/W rightfully won. My personal opinion was that I thought that even with the fall, D/W were over-marked in the SP and V/W were under-marked in the FD. The overall placement is correct though I would have had it 2-3 points difference rather than the 5 or so it was.
Belbin made an interesting point re the Shibs on UniSports yesterday, saying they have such a clear vision of themselves and the image they want to project that they (and presumably their very involved mother) exercise an excessively high amount of control over their program concepts and how they are presented. Also, Marina has frequently commented that Meryl and Charlie are extremely involved in the conception and development of their programs. Given their competitive nature and Marina and Igor's clear willingness to work collaboratively with their skaters and supplemental coaches, I would not be surprised in the slightest if Scott and Tessa had a say in the number of lifts. Also, I give V/M credit in that their long lifts tend to be visually very appealing and are usually their best lifts in their programs IMO. They may not have wanted to let go of that despite the scoring concerns, particularly if they assumed they would be in the driver's seat once fully healthy. Now they may be forced to reconsider. The curve lift however is definitely a problem in need of a solution.
BTW, fine posts Buttercup.
There's a HUGE difference between disagreeing with the judges on how they scored and accusing them of corrupt judging...
Bravo Mrs. P.
A perfect example is if Tessa and Scott were to skate an exhibition on a Canadian morning news show, they would likely not be relegated to the final hour or half hour of the program. By contrast, Meryl and Charlie were dumped in the third hour of the Today show in every appearance they've made. Plus USFSA absolutely no media pull in the US anymore. They just managed to score a new sponsor for Nationals in the last two weeks. While it's true they give ice dance ridiculously short shrift, in all honesty, they are so ham handed and inept in general with all disciplines that they are becoming a bit of joke. I've said before, the organization is too insular, volunteer-oriented and frankly lacks clear management and organizational development goals and execution. It's rather sad how USFSA has declined so rapidly. They are too disorganized to mount any sort of credible political or media campaign for anyone really IMO.
If D/W are getting any credible politicking in their favor, it's likely from the coaches. Not say that politicking is any more strong than what S/Z give V/M. I actually think this is less about politicking and more about Scott and Tessa taking for granted that all things being equal (healthy, training time, etc.) they would win any close decision as they have in the past. It's never a good idea to assume competitive dynamics will remain unchanged. It opens you up to being overtaken by surprise. Would Funny Face have been good enough to beat D/W a couple of years ago? Yes. But D/W have made massive improvements in packing their routines with more linking steps and transitions, improved flow, line, dance holds, posture, stretch, and yes personal connection and interaction. So the former presentation gap has closed. At the same time, D/W have not given any ground on difficulty and execution. From a pure sporting perspective, V/M will have to regroup and (as Tessa stated) go over their scores to determine what changes need to be made. A healthy acknowledgement of the points I made would also help. They are by no means out of the game.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Is it just something American sports are dealing with then? Because your complaints are SO SIMILAR to the complaints being made about the Iditarod and how it's being run. (yay another Iditarod reference, hee hee). It's funny how much behind the scenes the sports are similar.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
Tessa and Scott have never been invited to skate on Canada AM, as far as I know so that comparison is moot.
All season long I've watched V&M and D&W and wondered, objectively, who had the better program and who performed their programs better. I finally concluded that I couldn't objectively decide which which was better, they are just too close to call. In the past, D&W were great technicians but they lacked that extra something in their performance - the innate connection that Tessa and Scott have, but this season their performances have shone. You forget they're on skates, until they're forced to do a required element.
My only criticism of D&W is that they're skating a waltz and in ballroom, lifts are not allowed in the waltz, and the dance is to be done in closed dance hold. Because of the lift, footwork and twizzle requirements for ice dance, they have to violate these ballroom rules, but that's the only off-note that the program strikes. Everything else is magical, right down to Meryl's beautiful dress. I had these same comments about lifts, footwork and twizzles, last season when the Golden Waltz was the SD rhythm so this isn't something I just came up with to down D&W.
In a tie, I'm always going to come down on the side of Virtue and Moir and I do love Funny Face - both the movie their program is based on, and their program. But man, I wouldn't want to be a judge and have to pick between these two teams this season. Given the closeness of the scores, the judges don't seem to want to do it either.
All season long I've watched V&M and D&W and wondered, objectively, who had the better program and who performed their programs better. I finally concluded that I couldn't objectively decide which which was better, they are just too close to call. In the past, D&W were great technicians but they lacked that extra something in their performance - the innate connection that Tessa and Scott have, but this season their performances have shone. You forget they're on skates, until they're forced to do a required element.
My only criticism of D&W is that they're skating a waltz and in ballroom, lifts are not allowed in the waltz, and the dance is to be done in closed dance hold. Because of the lift, footwork and twizzle requirements for ice dance, they have to violate these ballroom rules, but that's the only off-note that the program strikes. Everything else is magical, right down to Meryl's beautiful dress. I had these same comments about lifts, footwork and twizzles, last season when the Golden Waltz was the SD rhythm so this isn't something I just came up with to down D&W.
In a tie, I'm always going to come down on the side of Virtue and Moir and I do love Funny Face - both the movie their program is based on, and their program. But man, I wouldn't want to be a judge and have to pick between these two teams this season. Given the closeness of the scores, the judges don't seem to want to do it either.
Toni you are right. Many sports are dysfunctional. We're all aware of the breakdowns the NBA and NFL have suffered this year. MLB has had it's own problems over the years. The NCAA is a total joke at the moment and the ISU has always had shady issues going on. Tennis is an absolute mess. Separate tours for men and women, with different governing structures. Another governing body for the majors. All three have their own rule books with slight differences between them. Inept leaders at all level. An unclear vision for the sport going forward. (On top of that the women's tour is on the verge of devolving into a complete laughing stock with no one able to stay healthy for more than three months any everyone afraid of sustaining their own success.) By contrast, one of the things I admire about golf is that despite being just as complex organizationally as tennis (if not more so), it is a far better run sport which is capable of maintaining its media presence on mainstream broadcast TV and in print media even in lean times. Pretty impressive for a relatively niche sport. I think that is because it's leaders treat is much more as a serious business (including most of its athletes being seriously involved on the leadership and business sides) rather than as a community volunteer effort.
I know, I know! Is there body language for, "I can't believe I'm standing here on the second step of the podium with this joker ahead of me!"
yes, there is. surya bonaly demonstrated it. unless one's body language is as impossible-to-second-guess as surya's, IMO onlookers shouldn't try to read minds and infer, for example, what's behind mao's tears, yeonah's tears, etc.
i don't care for honesty from athletes, unless their honest words reveal them to be even more admirable folks than they were previously thought to be.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Even when being like that; heck especially when being like that, Johnny seemed to be having fun with us & the press. One of his charms.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2007
:disapp:Not Scott's classiest moment. Then again, he's always been a hot head, and he was clearly displeased when the marks came up yesterday. While I agree that skaters should be able to express their opinions to the media, I hate it when they make "I was robbed" type comments. I don't necessarily disagree with everything he's saying, but he really should have kept it to himself. Honestly, D/W have always been classy about being second best, so I think Scott owes them the same respect now that the situation was reversed. I exclude Tessa from this, because I've never heard her say anything the least bit controversial. I really hope he doesn't make a habit of this.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
After pounding my brain reading this discussion of behaviour. So what? Why do you hate the guy because he sounded off in his defense of the judging. One grants what is right in a standard fight 'cause' that is the law of Man, of Man, etc.
Scot lost by afew points. That's the way the cookie crumbles. He will get over it.
Scot lost by afew points. That's the way the cookie crumbles. He will get over it.
Again, here is the excerpt from the article:
It sounds pretty obvious to me that they felt they should have won this competition with the performances they had.
He only mentions the free dance in this content:
I feel the statement I put in bold tells me that V/M did not feel shafted from working with S/Z on this program, as many in this board has speculated. If anything, they felt this piece was the BEST program they ever had and they were bothered that the judges scores' did not reflect this (though it's worth noting that they achieved a personal best in the FD at GPF). And further more, it's even worse that judges did not acknowledge that their best program was artistically superior to Davis and White's.
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2006
He says "gold-medal free dance'. Read it again...I believe he felt they should have won the free dance.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
The top 5 ice dancers are so close technically to my untrained eye. Ice dance is still the most subjective of the four disciplines. Maybe he is the best male ice dancer on the scene. It seems to me it comes down still to reputation, judges favorites, the most interesting/well crafted programs, as they all do twizzles so well. I think Meryl /Charlie have the better programs this year, but I'd be totally ok is they gave gold to the Shinutanis. They are just as gold worthy in my eyes.
I never get too upset about ice dance anymore because the CoP changes and the spotlight on the fraud in ice dance fixed the crazy sport of ice dance and opened it up. Going back in time, there is plenty to get aggravated about in the judging messes. I just think Voir feel they are always the best with Olympic gold, and they are not. I would never want to judge ice dance unless there are falls or awful mistakes. It is never clear to me who is the best and these top teams are pretty much equal in talent to me. It all comes down to the best program these days. But then I suppose if you are a former skater, you can judge the subtle differences in edge, speed, difficulty of footwork, lifts etc. These comments are typical. Why does anyone get upset about 2nd place saying they deserved gold? It happens all the time. I prefer the honest ones to the pc ones. Shows their true selves. I would have chosen Davis and White as the best, but I'm not sure if they really are or if I just preferred their programs.
I never get too upset about ice dance anymore because the CoP changes and the spotlight on the fraud in ice dance fixed the crazy sport of ice dance and opened it up. Going back in time, there is plenty to get aggravated about in the judging messes. I just think Voir feel they are always the best with Olympic gold, and they are not. I would never want to judge ice dance unless there are falls or awful mistakes. It is never clear to me who is the best and these top teams are pretty much equal in talent to me. It all comes down to the best program these days. But then I suppose if you are a former skater, you can judge the subtle differences in edge, speed, difficulty of footwork, lifts etc. These comments are typical. Why does anyone get upset about 2nd place saying they deserved gold? It happens all the time. I prefer the honest ones to the pc ones. Shows their true selves. I would have chosen Davis and White as the best, but I'm not sure if they really are or if I just preferred their programs.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
it's not really as subjective as you're making out... all four disiplines are equally subjective in the second mark... but there are clear ways you can tell which team is better in the technical.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Canadian bad boys of figure skating 
even if their images have to be manufactured.
They can't hold a candle to the real deals though, with no steroid or drug use, violence, temper tantrums, DUI, animal cruelty, arrests and incarcerations, etc.
We will make do. Thank you for the effort.
even if their images have to be manufactured.They can't hold a candle to the real deals though, with no steroid or drug use, violence, temper tantrums, DUI, animal cruelty, arrests and incarcerations, etc.
We will make do. Thank you for the effort.
