Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

[Bluebonnet]

Given that Takahashi is MUCH better artistically and as a performer than Patrick Chan to begin with (you don't have to agree but I'm positing the idea), his overall PCS should generally be higher than Patrick's anyway. However, that never happens. When Takahashi skates better than Patrick - look at the recent Grand Prix Final Long Program - his PCS are still lower.

So, no, your theory is incorrect. Patrick Chan is held up in the PCS more than anyone else in the world of figure skating.

Like Boeing787 said, the thing you held in the highest esteem, such as better artistically and better performer, doesn't worth much in CoP. Patrick is better in SS, TR, CH, even he could match or exceed Takahashi in PE half of the times. The only part that Patrick is a little weaker is his IN due to his limited musicality. Even that, IN would be sometimes in favor of Patrick if you go one by one in the details of definition of IN. Unless you score by your own scoring system, your conclusion is wrong. CoP's result won't satisfy you or anyone who come and seek pure art. And your last sentence was totally baseless!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Here we go again. PCS consists of five departments: SS (Patrick is better than Dai). CH (Lori beats Dai's). TR (Patrick wins by quantity and variety). IN and PE (these are the only two areas where Dai can beat Patrick).

Patrick Chan's choreography (Lori's) is absolutely not better than Takahashi's. Would love to see an analysis of that because I very much disagree.

Patrick Chan's transitions are not superior to Takhashi's anymore. The latter has added more into his programs this year and several of them are exceptionally difficult. Look at the way he goes into his last Triple Flip in his LP. In the SP, Takahashi's transitions into and out of his solo jump are more difficult than Patrick's.

Patrick Chan's skating skills are not better than Takahashi's in every performance. He may be superior when he skates perfectly, but not when he is stumbling on elements. Such mistakes negatively affect the overall edge quality being presented, which is part of this component.

You left out the "Performance" mark, which is something most everyone agrees that Takahashi tends to be better at (and Takahashi is obviously better with Interpretation, as you stated).

I used to think that, too. It just didn't seem reasonable that every element that Patrick undertook was one of the all-time great examples of that element.

But in reading the new GOE guidelines, the ISU has lowered the standards for satisfying each bullet. So by the new rules, Patrick does deserve these GOE scores.

I wouldn't say they have lowered the standards (nor are those bullets set-it-stone to begin with, they are guidelines). Judges have simply become more free with handing out GOE in the past few years and, IMO, they score very much on reputation and have become too obsessed with rewarding transitions that actually hinder the flow of elements at times.

So which Program Component is Artistry?

Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation. They comprise 60% of the PCS and Takahashi is the best in those areas when he is on form. Skating Skills are part of Artistry as well (edge quality and blade control makes everything look better) and Transitions can be too (this component is essentially "difficulty of choreography aside from the technical elements themselves"), but they don't form the core of what Artistry is.

 

[jettasian]

When someone's mind is already made up (you know, already fixated to believe "Chan will win no matter what", "Chan's mark will always be inflated", "Chan will win with 10 falls", "Chan has 4 falls cushions" etc), facts will never going to convince them. And regardless how Chan skates, the result for them is always the same.

 

[Violet Bliss]

When someone's mind is already made up (you know, already fixated to believe "Chan will win no matter what", "Chan's mark will always be inflated", "Chan will win with 10 falls", "Chan has 4 falls cushions" etc), facts will never going to convince them. And regardless how Chan skates, the result for them is always the same.

But they can make declarations. Too bad they don't count. E.g. Amodio's highly exalted artistry got him nowhere.

 

[jettasian]

(and, frankly, because Chan constantly gets way better GOE scores than he should).

Chan totally deserves all the GOE he got. His jumps usually have little or no set up, in/out footworks as well, and the height and flow.

Amodio's highly exalted artistry got him nowhere.

I never like Amodio's so-called "artistry". Most of the time, I feel like he's skating for the Gala, not competition, and always over the top and exaggerated expression. Leave those to the Gala.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Chan totally deserves all the GOE he got. His jumps usually have little or no set up, in/out footworks as well, and the height and flow.

But does he have the best jump face with a smile and flying hair?

 

[jettasian]

But does he have the best jump face with a smile and flying hair?

No. Most people like "sad" face, "tragic and the world will end soon" expressions. Most skaters do that if you notice.

What Chan needs in order to improve his "artistry" score is maybe to flirt with the audience, making sexy eyes to the judges, and the thrusting and caressing and being naughty........wait, those belong to the Gala as well...

 

[Tonichelle]

When someone's mind is already made up (you know, already fixated to believe "Chan will win no matter what", "Chan's mark will always be inflated", "Chan will win with 10 falls", "Chan has 4 falls cushions" etc), facts will never going to convince them. And regardless how Chan skates, the result for them is always the same.

It goes both ways.

 

[jettasian]

It goes both ways.

Not if people already declare that BEFORE the event.

 

[Blades of Passion]

When someone's mind is already made up, facts will never going to convince them. And regardless how Chan skates, the result for them is always the same.

No "facts" have been presented that hold any kind of meaning against anything I've said. Saying "regardless of how Chan skates" is missing the point as well. Just because Susan is forced to eat 100 hotdogs, and has been made hotdogs by the best chefs in the World, that doesn't mean she HAS to like hotdogs or that hotdogs are magically nutritious.

Amodio's highly exalted artistry got him nowhere.

Yeah, winning a European Championship is nothing.

BTW, do you see me cheering Amodio this season? I judge the work on a case-by-case basis. If Chan ever skates with what I feel qualifies as real artistry, then I would praise it. As it is, I find him to be a supremely talented technician who is becoming better as a performer (his performances at Canadian Nationals were his best ever and really very good) but has yet to show true emotion or a unique viewpoint.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Patrick Chan's choreography (Lori's) is absolutely not better than Takahashi's.

That's your opinion. The judges don't think so.

Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation. They comprise 60% of the PCS and Takahashi is the best in those areas when he is on form.

Ha, not all the time?

 

[jettasian]

No "facts" have been presented that hold any kind of meaning against anything I've said. Saying "regardless of how Chan skates" is missing the point as well. Just because Susan is forced to eat 100 hotdogs, and has been made hotdogs by the best chefs in the World, that doesn't mean she HAS to like hotdogs or that hotdogs are magically nutritious.

Facts about the TES and PCS marks regarding a few skaters. Chan's not the one got held with his PCS marks. As to what you consider is great "performance" or "artisty", I guess that's very subjective that we just see different things. Luckily the judges seem to agree my view.

And it is true that to some posters, regardless how well Chan skated, they will always see only one thing, "overscored".

 

[Boeing787]

Let's take a look at both Patrick and Dai's PCS in GPF 2011:

SS: Pat 8.75 Dai 8.57 Pat won by better speed, deeper edges.

TR: Pat 8.61 Dai 8.36
Definition: The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements.
To my untrained eyes, Pat had more variety in his program. In addition to the 3 turns, brackets, there were little hops, sperad eagle, lunge which didn't exist in Dai's LP.

PE: Pat 8.61 Dai: 8.61
Definition: Performance is the involvement of the skater physically, emotionally and intellectually as he translates the intent of the music and choreography. Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery.
Pat's performance in Aranjuez is close to Dai's because he has improved a lot. His execution was not good because of the fall, but, Dai was not that great either, he doubled a triple (3F+3T became 3F+2T). Considering the fact that Pat's program is more difficult, the score is justified.

CH: Pat 8.75 Dai 8.5 I think the difference should be greater. Lori designed movements to match every beat of the music, the program is more complicated.

IN: Pat 8.82 Dai 8.75 Interpretation
Definition: The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice.

Criteria:
•Effortless movement in time to the music ---- Both are good.
•Expression of the music's style, character, rhythm ----- Patrick was better because the music was more dramatic.
•Use of finesse* to reflect the nuances of the music --- Patrick won because of the complexity of the music.
*Finesse is the skater's/team's refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal artistic ways of bringing variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or musicians.

Dai generally wins in this department but not this time. Because Pat has improved so much and it helps that this program
is much better designed than Dai's. The judges obviously thought so.

 

[Blades of Passion]

flirt with the audience, making sexy eyes to the judges, and the thrusting and caressing and being naughty

Whilst artistry may be subjective, you don't really seem to understand what it is to begin with. These definitions are misplaced and derogatory.

It's about moving and emoting to express oneself, to express the music, and to conjure ideas and emotions.

Being flirtatious and sexy are not bad things and they are qualities which should be used if that is what the program and the music are trying to convey. You seem to be frightened by the idea of someone actually expressing those emotions. That is not the skater's problem, that is your problem. You could criticize the skater doing it out of time/character with the music or the choreography as a whole but anything else is ignorance and bias on your part.

Facts about the TES and PCS marks regarding a few skaters. Chan's not the one got held with his PCS marks.

Those "facts" about TES and PCS don't mean anything at all, as I already wrote about. Yes, he IS the one who gets held up.

But just answer this one question - do you feel Patrick Chan deserved to win the LP at the 2011 Grand Prix Final?

And it is true that to some posters, regardless how well Chan skated, they will always see only one thing, "overscored".

And it is true that some posters will always just agree with what the judges say and fall back on that as the entire basis for their argument, regardless of reasoning and education.

A case could be made that Patrick Chan has been overscored in virtually every performance he has given, from the autumn of 2008 up to the present time. Saying "regardless of how well he skated" doesn't mean anything either. Regardless of how well he skates, he can still be overscored. What do you not understand about that. If a "perfect" skate from Patrick Chan objectively deserves something like 180 and he receives 200, he has been overscored. Yes, he skated amazingly and deserved a huge score, but he was overmarked nonetheless.

Ha, not all the time?

Nobody is the best all the time.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Nobody is the best all the time.

That's why Chan could succeed in all categories in PCS over Takahashi, even those areas that you said Takahashi was the best but not all the time.

 

[Ravensque]

Patrick is also faster than Takahashi. This is something that doesn't always appear evident watching on TV, but very evident when both are seen live.

 

[Blades of Passion]

SS: Pat 8.75 Dai 8.57 Pat won by better speed, deeper edges.

Patrick's edges in that performance were shaky in 4 separate places.

TR: Pat 8.61 Dai 8.36
Definition: The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. To my untrained eyes, Pat had more variety in his program. In addition to the 3 turns, brackets, there were little hops, sperad eagle, lunge which didn't exist in Dai's LP.

Whereas Patrick had hops and a spread eagle and a lunge, Dai's program had many different kinds of turns and steps that Patrick's did not. Takahashi has something between every element just as Patrick does and the former's transition into the last 3Flip I would rate as more difficult (and more expressive of the music) than any single transition Chan does into a jump. Chan has less setup time for a couple jumps, but he also was shaky on a couple of the transitions in this performance, so I do not see him being superior here.

PE: Pat 8.61 Dai: 8.61
Definition: Performance is the involvement of the skater physically, emotionally and intellectually as he translates the intent of the music and choreography. Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery.
Pat's performance in Aranjuez is close to Dai's because he has improved a lot. His execution was not good because of the fall, but, Dai was not that great either, he doubled a triple (3F+3T became 3F+2T). Considering the fact that Pat's program is more difficult, the score is justified.

Nothing you said has much to do with performance. A program being more difficult does not mean the skater gave a superior performance. You're also wrong that Dai mistakenly doubled any jump; he did a 3Axel-3Toe combination and would have zayaked if he did 3Flip-3Toe.

CH: Pat 8.75 Dai 8.5 I think the difference should be greater. Lori designed movements to match every beat of the music, the program is more complicated.

A program being more complicated does not mean the choreography is better. Choreography is about how striking the movement itself is and how it works together to build a greater whole. Music is part of it too, although that's a bit more towards the interpretation component. I do not feel this choreography is particularly brilliant, though, and I described my opinion in detail here - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-11-8-25AM-EST&p=596708&viewfull=1#post596708

IN: Pat 8.82 Dai 8.75 Interpretation
Definition: The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice.

•Expression of the music's style, character, rhythm ----- Patrick is better because the music is more dramatic.
•Use of finesse* to reflect the nuances of the music --- Patrick won because of the complexity of the music.

This is mind-bogglingly wrong. Music being more dramatic has nothing to do if whether or not the skater gave a better interpretation. Music being more complex similarly does not mean anything with regards to if the skater's interpretation was good or not. You're not even correct to begin with that Patrick's music was more complex! "Blues for Klook" is certainly more complex musically than "Aranjeuz"!!!

I'm sorry, but your arguments here are completely uninformed.

 

[jettasian]

Whilst artistry may be subjective, you don't really seem to understand what it is to begin with. These definitions are misplaced and derogatory.

Oh, I know what artistry is. I just don't have the same definition as yours. As for my suggestions, I was partly joking, and partly not because I HAVE SEEN some did those in the past!!! So not sure about where your "misplaced and derogatory" coming from. Condesending much?

It's about moving and emoting to express oneself, to express the music, and to conjure ideas and emotions.

And I, and many judges, saw that in Chan's program. I dare to say that you don't see it, not because it's not there, it's because you have a bias toward the skater. And when you dislike someone, sometimes it clouds over your emotion. I can say that it happens to me as well to some other skaters.

Being flirtatious and sexy are not bad things and they are qualities which should be used if that is what the program and the music are trying to convey. You seem to be frightened by the idea of someone actually expressing those emotions. That is not the skater's problem, that is your problem. You could criticize the skater doing it out of time/character with the music or the choreography as a whole but anything else is ignorance and bias on your part.

No, I am not frightened by those emotions...but I AM frightened by over exaggerated expressive emotions. This IS figure skating, so skate, instead of pausing in the middle of the program to make silling facial expressions. Leave those to the Gala and Star on Ice. It proves nothing except you are tired and you need a break.

Those "facts" about TES and PCS don't mean anything at all, as I already wrote about. Yes, he IS the one who gets held up.

The "facts" show Chan did NOT get held up by PCS, meanwhile, that could not be the same for Dai. Since these facts don't mean anything to you, no wonder you still believe Chan is the one that gets held up. So what's the point for this on going debate when you admit yourself that facts mean nothing to you?

But just answer this one question - do you feel Patrick Chan deserved to win the LP at the 2011 Grand Prix Final?

After looking at the protocol, yes. His program was much more difficult, his transitions and skating skills and speed were all superior to Dai. Though he had problem with the jumps, he DID rotate them, so he got partial marks. That is one of the points that some posters (the ones always scream that Chan gets overscored) seem to like to ignore.

A case could be made that Patrick Chan has been overscored in virtually every performance he has given, from the autumn of 2008 up to the present time. Saying "regardless of how well he skated" doesn't mean anything either. Regardless of how well he skates, he can still be overscored. What do you not understand about that. If a "perfect" skate from Patrick Chan objectively deserves something like 180 and he receives 200, he has been overscored. Yes, he skated amazingly and deserved a huge score, but he was overmarked nonetheless.

I think the point you don't understand (not me) is that, to some, no matter how well Chan skates, they will always believe the marks are inflated even before they see the protocols. And for you to say that Chan's been overscored virtually on every competition since 2008 proves nothing except your bias and refuse to see facts. It also proves my point. Regardless, he's overscored, and in your case, since 2008.

 

[Boeing787]

Blues for Klook" is certainly more complex musically than "Aranjeuz"!!!

*** I don't agree. For me it's monotonous, Arnajuez is more sensational and complicated musically with the cadenza of the guitar.

Music being more dramatic has nothing to do if whether or not the skater gave a better interpretation. Music being more complex similarly does not mean anything with regards to if the skater's interpretation was good or not.

*** I already stated that "Effortless movement in time to the music ---- Both are good." So if a skater can meet this requirement skating to more complex music, he deserves higher IN marks.

I know it's impossible to win an argument on the internet. So I quit. Have a nice super weekend. May the Giants win!

eta. Why are the judges so generous to Patrick? There must be a reason, right ? He didn't bribe them as far as I know.

 

[skatinginbc]

Arnajuez is more...complicated musically with the cadenza of the guitar.

What does it mean? The cadenza makes it more complicated than the other in terms of musical structure?