Different 3-3s

[FSGMT]

Thanks for the info!
What's SEQ?

Under the IJS, when you do two (or more) jumps not directly in combination but with some other minor movements between them tehre is a SEQ (sequence): just the two jumps with the highest value are counted and their BV is calculated multiplied by 0.8. Ex: in this last SC performance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1duC4sYCY&feature=g-u-u), Kanako at 3:15 lands a 3F+1A SEQ, so the BV is 5.63 instead of 7.04, because it's easier than a "real" combo. Two seasons ago, a 3Lz+half loop+3S would have been a 3Lz+3S+SEQ, not it's a 3Lz+1Lo+3S.

 

[FSGMT]

"A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that may be linked by non-listed jumps and/or hops immediately following each other while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee); there can be no turns/steps (not even as an entry into a jump), crossovers or stroking during the sequence (Turns are three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers. Steps are toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge, cross-rolls)."

Base value of sequence is 20% lower than combo or solo jump.

We posted it almost simultaneously!

 

[gkelly]

Also, there's a rule stating that jumps are called according to the takeoff, regardless of which foot they land on.

There are two reasons why a jump might land on the "wrong" foot:

1) It was a mistake -- she didn't get her weight positioned correctly in the air. In that case, she'll probably put her other foot down right away, and the judges will give the element negative GOEs.

2) It was an intentional variation. This is usually only done with single jumps, and the two most common kinds have their own names: one-foot axel, and half-loop (which is closer to a full than a half rotation, with backward takeoff and backward landing). But the opposite foot landing could be chosen for any jump takeoff, usually as a connecting move for a single jump (waste of points in IJS where it will fill a jump box and count as a single jump) or else to set up a salchow or flip as a second or third (or later) jump in a combination or sequence.

It is possible but quite difficult and therefore quite rare to land a double or triple jump on the opposite foot for these purposes. Although not common, the example I've seen more than once is one-foot double salchow, usually in combination with a regular double salchow following.

Back in the 1980s and earlier, when jumping wasn't all about number of rotations in the air, some skaters would include these opposite-landing jumps for variety and originality. Into the 1990s we sometimes saw one-foot axel-triple salchow combinations.

For Slowdive, the typical, most secure jump landing is the back outside edge that curves in the same direction as the jump rotation. For most skaters, who jump counterclockwise, this is the back outside edge on the right foot. From there, the possible jump takeoffs from the back outside edge are toe loop and loop. As FSGMT points out, toe loop combinations are easier in general, although some skaters prefer the loops.

It's possible but less secure and harder to maintain flow and balance if you land the jump on the back inside edge of the other foot instead (left back inside for counterclockwise jumpers). For those who can do it, it's possible to put a salchow or flip as the next jump.

To my knowledge, no one has ever done a opposite foot landing jump-salchow/flip combination in which both jumps were triples, and I can only think of one attempted example in which one of them was a triple. It's just that much harder to control the back inside landing to pull off such feats. Even double something-double sal/flip has been very rare.

As I mentioned above, we have seen one-foot axel-triple salchow before IJS, but since it's much harder to do 1A+3S than it would be to do 3S+2T, but the point value would be lower under the current rules, it's not worth doing. I'd like to see the rules for scoring combos adjusted so that it would be, but I'm not holding my breath.

What we have seen is skaters doing triple something-half loop-triple sal/flip. In that case the half loop serves mainly as a transition to get the skater onto the other foot for the salchow or flip takeoff. It was rare before IJS (not so rare at lower levels with double jumps). It continued to be rare at the beginning of IJS because at first the rules defined this kind of element as a jump sequence, worth only 80% of the value of the jumps. A couple years ago they redefined it so that something-half loop-something is considered a three-jump combination, with the half loop called as 1Lo. Now that it's worth more points, we're seeing them become a bit more common.

It is not possible to do a combination with 2A as the second jump, because all correctly landed multiple-rotation jumps land on a backward edge (usually outside, rarely inside), and the axel takes off from a forward edge. There would need to be a turn in between, in most cases with a step to the other foot, which makes it a jump sequence and not a true combination. We have indeed seen skaters do triple something-double axel sequences, probably more often under IJS than before, especially ladies who are trying to get in as many triples as they can fit into the 7 allowed jump passes and who are still required to do an axel jump as well.

And you didn't ask about lutzes, but don't expect to see those at the end of combinations either, since they take off from an edge that's traveling in the opposite direction from the jump rotation and landing. The only ways to put a lutz on the end of another jump would be
1) put a change of edge in between, which would invalidate it as a combination under the current definitions (not sure whether that would be called as a sequence worth only 80% or as two separate jumps taking up two jump slots), or
2) rotate one of the jumps, either the first one which could be any kind or a lutz as the second jump) in the opposite direction (very very difficult with double jumps, even moreso with triples) but not worth any more than a normal combination according to the rules and therefore not worth trying. I don't expect to see that with triples in our lifetime, and with doubles only if the rules change to give extra credit for jumping both directions.

There's more to say about listed vs. unlisted jumps and how the half loop is sort of a special case, but it's not directly relevant to this thread.

 

[Slowdive]

Learning a lot today - thanks to both of you!

 

[FSGMT]

To my knowledge, no one has ever done a opposite foot landing jump-salchow/flip combination in which both jumps were triples, and I can only think of one attempted example in which one of them was a triple. It's just that much harder to control the back inside landing to pull off such feats. Even double something-double sal/flip has been very rare.
Do you mean by elite skaters or in practice/local competitions? I don't remember it...

 

[AlexRus]

gkelly, yes.

Little addition.
There are two ways - to land on left foot or to rotate second jump in other direction (right instead of left, in this case Lutz, Flip or Salchow is from right foot).
Both are too difficult and hardly possible with 3+3 combo. 3A is simpler with higher score.

Some time ago were (rarely) 2S+2S in different directions. But common 3S+2T is simpler to do and gives better score.

Because of this nobody does so.

 

[gkelly]

This is what I was thinking of. As you can see, it wasn't executed quite successfully.

 

[AlexRus]

This is what I was thinking of. As you can see, it wasn't executed quite successfully.

At old judging system (6.0) "exotic" elements could be used to make judges think "how difficult!" and make scores higher.
At new system, when all elements have known, fixed base value, it makes no sense.

 

[FSGMT]

This is what I was thinking of. As you can see, it wasn't executed quite successfully.

I've never seen something like this before! This is one of the few things I liked about the 6.0 system: the skaters could experiment, try new and unusual things... Thank for sharing this!
But, going back to the main topic, does anyone else remember other female skaters who landed more than three different 3-3s?

 

[raress]

Shelepen landed also 3F-3T-2lo and 3F-3Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Qb7ARRB1A 3F-3T-2Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a6fR7ouw-s 3F-3Lo

 

[mskater93]

Yep. But for some reason, they just count it as a 1Lo on the protocol sheets. Anyone know why?

because then it's not a sequence. There's a rule SPECIFICALLY stating that a 1/2 loop connecting two other listed jumps will be considered a 1Lo on the protocol and will be scored as such and NO sequence deduction will be applied.

 

[mskater93]

I want to see a skater do a 3T or 3Z-2A combo (or is that humanly possible)?

No, it will always be a sequence and scored as such - a step must be taken to enter the 2A which makes it a sequence.

 

[mskater93]

3Lz as the second jump: only if someone can jump consistently in both directions. The only skater I know who could do it (at least in practice) was Rohene Ward. His CW 3Lz was not "pretty" enough and he was concerned he might get minus GOE and/or <<...

 

[FSGMT]

Shelepen landed also 3F-3T-2lo and 3F-3Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Qb7ARRB1A 3F-3T-2Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a6fR7ouw-s 3F-3Lo

Really interesting! So, a total of 6 different 3-3s from Polina!

 

[gkelly]

We have seen single walley-triple lutz combinations with the walley rotating in the opposite direction.

It doesn't count as a combination under IJS because the walley is a nonlisted jump not in the scale of values, specifically so it will just count as a transition and not fill a jump box with a single jump when used in isolation.

Also the resettling on the landing edge usually takes so long before the lutz takeoff that the rhythm is not at all like a typical jump combination.

However, if there were a desire to encourage opposite direction jumps, combinations with more rotations in the last rather than first jump, and/or combinations with jumps other than toe loop and loop at the end, there could be ways to rewrite the rules so that opposite-rotating single jump followed by normal double or triple lutz would be worth more than a double or triple lutz with a double toe loop or loop on the end. E.g., a bonus for combinations that rotate both directions and a bonus to the base value of the second jump in a combo.

And I expect that if opposite single-normal lutz combos became popular, a few skaters who are able to rotate both ways better than most would develop the skills to do opposite double something-normal triple lutz combinations. Triple-triple in opposite directions is likely too difficult to foresee in upcoming decades.

Again, I've seen no evidence that the ISU is interested in promoting that kind of element. But I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for them to consider it.

 

[FSGMT]

So, this is the summary of what I've learned with this thread (thx everyone!):
6 DIFFERENT 3-3s: Polina Shelepen (3T+3T, 3S+3T, 3F+3T, 3F+3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3Lz+3Lo)
5 DIFFERENT 3-3s: none
4 DIFFERENT 3-3s: Surya Bonaly (3T+3T, 3S+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T); Elena Radionova (3Lz+3T, 3Lo+3T, 3S+3T and, according to AlexRus, 3T+3T)
3 DIFFERENT 3-3s: Midori Ito (3T+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3A+3T (maybe 3Lo+3Lo, if you remember when please post the link)); Irina Slutskaya (3S+3Lo, 3T+3T, 3lz+3Lo); Shizuka Arakawa (3Lz+3T, 3S+3T, 3S+3Lo); Adelina Sotnikova (3T+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3Lz+3Lo); Carolina Kostner (3T+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T); Yu-Na Kim (3T+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T); Sarah Hughes (3T+3Lo, 3S+3Lo, 3Lo+3Lo).
I didn't count the 3-jumps combos nor Liza, because she has never landed a clean 3T+3T in competition, just 3S+3T and 3Lz+3T (please correct me if I'm wrong...)!
I've learned a lot of things...

 

[Mrs. P]

So, this is the summary of what I've learned with this thread (thx everyone!):
6 DIFFERENT 3-3s: Polina Shelepen (3T+3T, 3S+3T, 3F+3T, 3F+3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3Lz+3Lo)
5 DIFFERENT 3-3s: none
4 DIFFERENT 3-3s: Surya Bonaly (3T+3T, 3S+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T); Elena Radionova (3Lz+3T, 3Lo+3T, 3S+3T and, according to AlexRus, 3T+3T)
3 DIFFERENT 3-3s: Midori Ito (3T+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3A+3T (maybe 3Lo+3Lo, if you remember when please post the link)); Irina Slutskaya (3S+3Lo, 3T+3T, 3lz+3Lo); Shizuka Arakawa (3Lz+3T, 3S+3T, 3S+3Lo); Adelina Sotnikova (3T+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3Lz+3Lo); Carolina Kostner (3T+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T); Yu-Na Kim (3T+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T).
I didn't count the 3-jumps combos nor Liza, because she has never landed a clean 3T+3T in competition, just 3S+3T and 3Lz+3T (please correct me if I'm wrong...)!
I've learned a lot of things...

Too bad that Polina Shelepen has been able to translate those six 3-3 into doing well at competitions. Hope she has a better season...

 

[gkelly]

Would you include sequences of triple-half loop-triple?

If so, add Tara Lipinski, who did 3S+3Lo, 3Lo+3Lo, and 3T+1Lo+3S?


Oh, and IIRC Sarah Hughes did 3Lo+3Lo, 3S+3Lo, and 3T+3Lo at least once each.


Whether they would have gotten full credit for rotation under IJS scrutiny is another question. But few 3Lo combinations would.

 

[Mrs. P]

Would you include sequences of triple-half loop-triple?

If so, add Tara Lipinski, who did 3S+3Lo, 3Lo+3Lo, and 3T+1Lo+3S?

I think FSGMT said he wasn't counting 3-jump combos for some reason.

If that counted, Gracie Gold would be on the last for three as well for her 3F-3T, 3Z-3T and 3F-1Lo-3S.

 

[FSGMT]

Would you include sequences of triple-half loop-triple?

If so, add Tara Lipinski, who did 3S+3Lo, 3Lo+3Lo, and 3T+1Lo+3S?


Oh, and IIRC Sarah Hughes did 3Lo+3Lo, 3S+3Lo, and 3T+3Lo at least once each.


Whether they would have gotten full credit for rotation under IJS scrutiny is another question. But few 3Lo combinations would.

3Lo+3Lo? When?
And, yes, I didn't count the 3-jumps combos because (for me, at least, as a skater) they are easier than "real" combos so they are not really 3-3 combinations but 3-3 sequences (now counted as combos, I know) and the list would have been too long!