If your opinion was a true, Plushy fans won't be worried forever. But unfortunately it isn't. Tell me when he won with a high PCS despite meltdown.
Mishin Slams Skating Judges
- Thread starter Taan
- Start date
If your opinion was a true, Plushy fans won't be worried forever. But unfortunately it isn't. Tell me when he won with a high PCS despite meltdown.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Mishin is a coach. He can say whatever he likes and people will consider whether or not he is biased. Inman is a supposedly unbiased judge. As such, trying to draw attention to what he considers a skater's weakness shortly before the Olympics was completely inappropriate if not unethical.Mishin is the new Inman
Naturally he's still working as a skating official.
I agree with Mishin in general, and would add that the GOEs are also sometimes used to protect elite skaters. However, I do wish he hadn't picked on Mao specifically.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
I'm also curious - have most of you read the NHK Ladies' FP thread? Or is it only when "named" people say something, that it is wrong? Most people on that thread considered Akiko Suzuki to be the true winner of NHK - I have not participated in the discussion, but, for the record, so do I. And I love Mao.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
She was Boginskaya
Exactly, she is Boginskaya.
Lol. My thoughts are pretty much what others have pointed out: there may well be some truth to the notion that the components score doesn't accurately reflect skill and that reputation counts (not necessarily time spent on the scene, but time spent winning medals). But...pretty ironic that someone in Plushy's camp is complaining about this.
What is so ironic? Plushenko has never won a competition with multiple mistakes but held up only by PCS. I am in Plushy's camp, and I can say that with a proud face.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
Well, Plush doesn't have the skating skills of let alone Patrick Chan, he can't even match most of his competitors like Daisuke, Kozuka, Jeremy Abbot, etc. etc so there is no way that he could ever have a chance at winning just based on PCS alone. What is being pointed out that he has gotten far higher PCS than he actually deserves in the past, mostly because of his legendary jumps.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Can they compete with him when it comes to performance ability and charisma? PCS are not just based on skating skills, you know, and other than Dai, I would say the answer to my question is "absolutely not".
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
This always comes up, but if you read the definition of PCS very carefully, 'charisma' isn't listed as a criteria. I think PCS basically is just skating skills as they are displayed through the choreography and through how much you embody the music through the full use of your body as you skate. That's why Patrick Chan last season, without showing too much charisma, got great PCS scores in all of the categories. I would say the one element that seems to measure charima in PCS definition is 'projection', which is one bullet point out of six in P/E. So if charisma figures in PCS at all, it is minimal.
I think if you are a charismatic skater, you get a whole legion of fans like Dai does, but that's not why Dai gets the PCS that he does. At least, it shouldn't. No one should get more PCS for the amount of 'charisma' they display.
Incidentally, while I think Plushenko has charisma, I don't think too much of his performance ability. His body language is too frenetic for me to see him as a great performer. I think his knees and back are too injured for him to shift his center of gravity with the kind of fluidity that is required to 'perform' well. I much prefer Gachinski (when he is on) as a performer. And Gachinski doesn't have much charisma.
Last edited:
Plushenko may have different style of skating, that does not mean his skating skills are not good. Maybe Chan is better but Plushenko has top level SS, period.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
What you think PCS are doesn't match what the ISU has up on its website*. If you look at them - not even all that carefully - you will also see that skating skills (and transitions) are not prerequisites for high marks on every other component. That fans seem to think otherwise is annoying; I'm tired of pointing out that there are five program components, and they do not all have the same criteria. That the judges don't seem to understand this is troubling. I used charisma along with performance ability in general, because the ability to reach out the the audience is an obvious part of P&E and a strength of Plushenko's. BTW, power/energy is listed under skating skills here, along with acceleration. I don't think every skater who scores highly in that component has great power and energy.
The suggestion that Patrick Chan is superior at embodying "the music through the full use of your body as you skate" is one I disagree with. He's good enough, but there are skaters who are far better than him in this regard - including ones that people often complain are overscored. Having great skating skills and lots of transitions =/= having top notch-musical interpretation. Having fewer transitions or merely decent skating skills does not necessarily lead to weaker interpretation and performance. And this is exactly what Mishin was getting at: the marks are bunched together and used as placeholders, just like the second mark was under 6.0, only supposedly objective.
* If ever there was any doubt that the IJS was developed primarily by Canadians, the reference to "cross-cuts" in the explanation of transitions certainly makes it clear.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
You misquoted me. I opined that PCS measures 'skating skills as they are displayed through the choreography and through how much you embody the music through the full use of your body as you skate.' So it's obviously not just about the use the blade, but how much you can control your blade in relation with the whole body as it co-ordinates itself to the music.
I think Plushenko has this incredible way of accelerating into jumps that is impressive. PCS no longer allows you to win based on how powerful your stroking is. You have to show a whole package of skills to be certified a great skater. Is that why Mr. Mishin thinks PCS is unfair?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I'm sorry for misquoting you; I misunderstood your point. However, the bolded part strikes me as relevant only to the SS mark, so I still disagree with your interpretation of what PCS measures and should measure. Also, I don't think your understanding aligns with the official ISU guidelines on this.
Just coordinating with the music is definitely not deserving of a high score on the IN mark.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
What is the problem? In this thread- http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?38911-2012-NHK-Ladies-Free-Skate- I read so many same posts..The problem is Mishin said this? In last year Tarasova also said same things, and she said will write her opinion to ISU. Mishin has risked that he will lose his popularity-he and his pupils are very popular- in Japan, but he was brave.
___
I don't understand why do think the North-Am FS fans, that Plushy has bad SS...
Jackie Wong mentioned in response to people questioning Evgeni's PCS that:
"Plushenko had a great effortlessness in movement and a natural ability to generate great speed and power. Those aspects of his skating are sometimes underappreciated."
http://www.youtube.com/user/lindafmb- I don't know who is this American lady, but he is not only a simply FS fan.
In 2010:
" I've seen literally thousands of hours of Plushenko skating over his career, and have done tons of biomechanical analyses of his and several skaters' jumps, spins, and footwork. Not only is he better than almost every other skater EVER in terms of his completeness in ALL aspects of skating, he's also eerily consistent."
___
I don't understand why do think the North-Am FS fans, that Plushy has bad SS...
Jackie Wong mentioned in response to people questioning Evgeni's PCS that:
"Plushenko had a great effortlessness in movement and a natural ability to generate great speed and power. Those aspects of his skating are sometimes underappreciated."
http://www.youtube.com/user/lindafmb- I don't know who is this American lady, but he is not only a simply FS fan.
In 2010:
" I've seen literally thousands of hours of Plushenko skating over his career, and have done tons of biomechanical analyses of his and several skaters' jumps, spins, and footwork. Not only is he better than almost every other skater EVER in terms of his completeness in ALL aspects of skating, he's also eerily consistent."
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
Really? If you have time start to look at this thread, please http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?38503-The-one-and-only-Plushenko! I collected his best performances, details etc. since 1996. Or check it his wikipage.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeni_Plushenko
After I would like to read your opinion.
This is the protocol of European Championships 2012, look at his PCS!
http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2012/ec2012_protocol.pdf
Last edited:
Plushenko's SS are still good despite his age/injuries/surgeries. If other skaters had performing skills as bad as Plushenko' SS , we wouldn't see boring performances anymore.
Maybe I misunderstand hurrah too, but as far as I get from his/her post she/he thinks he components are/should be all related somehow to the SS. I've read a lot of similar opinions on forums or youtube, which makes me think ISU rules are vague.
Maybe I misunderstand hurrah too, but as far as I get from his/her post she/he thinks he components are/should be all related somehow to the SS. I've read a lot of similar opinions on forums or youtube, which makes me think ISU rules are vague.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2011
Not with multiple mistakes, but overscoring on PCS is overscoring on PCS regardless of what happens with jumps. Even if you deny that he's ever been overscored, he has been around a long time in the skating world, so if "judges favor skaters who've been around a long time" that's not exactly going to hurt him. That's why it's ironic.
I'm not denying the guy can perform, but he doesn't always bother to take advantage of this ability in competitive programs.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2009
So you are saying it should favour Patrick Chan only. Unlike your idol, who (and actually anyone else) will never be shining with all regalia that Plu has by now, the Russian never won anything with polishing the ice with his butt multiple times (probably due to poor politiking skills of RusFed, unlike SCSo it should favour Plushenko and Suzuki. And not Hanyu and Fernandez.
), and therefore wasn't boo-ed as a champion
. Plu never got any unfair advantage, similar to the ones your buddy normally gets, from PCS and the system in general leading to getting fake titles. Just less than 2 months ago he made mistakes at JO, still had a bigger BV than the quadless Buttle skating with safe-skating policy. But errors spoilt the general impression of Plu's prog, so his PCS went down immediately. Plus challenging tougher elements required a lot of nerves and it was one of the reason why he got lesser GOE (but still got!) on the executed elements. As the result he was put lower Buttle thanks to GOE and PCS and didn't get any advantage from his rank. So the fact that you dragged Plu has no merit and therefore count as lame trolling. If RusFed were as good at politiking and using the system as you suggest here, Plu wouldn't have ended up 4th at JO. So you guys are still the best at screwing everyone around. 
Mishin, TAT, Vasilljev, Gorshkov, Lakernik, others have been critisizing the system for the last two years if not longer, including how Chan was scored, not Asada only. I don't remember that anyone would make a soooooo big fuss of it. Here it happened just because rsport.ru put the English version on their site and gave some people the extra reason to bash Plu. He rules! He-he. In fact rsport.ru took translated-into-English quotes out of the context from the original Russian article where Mishin was asked about chances of Tuktamysheva at GPF. There it sounded quite logical that he mentioned that it's more difficult for younger skaters to get higher PCS because it's often based on "name." www.rsport.ru/figure_skating/20121126/632822063.html He mentioned Asada because it was the freshest example but the whole critics of the system is not smth. that he never said before. He wasn't much in love in CoP before Vancouver too. Wasn't it when Yuna won Worlds-2009 with 3 triples over Flatt with 7, thanks to the lead in SP? Oh, wait, her coach was Orser! Lol. Or PC getting over 8 in PCS with four falls and over 9 with three doubles. It's not like NHK-2012 with Asada's win is a unique thing. It happened with others too, they were just bashed less due to lobbying, passports, etc. The whole system sucks. That is what Mishin was and is saying. And not him only.
Then why on earth the Rules have all those categories if it's all about SS as you claim? No, dear, sport is recreation and entertainment, the key factor in the last is power, talent, attractiveness and charm, i.e. charisma, the things that can directly result in Performance&Interpretation and therefore impress the audience. The one that actullay pay for tickets, provide the venue and popularity, it leads to sponsors, TV contracts, etc. Some sofa specialists with popcorn are those who contribute the less in the system in fact. Btw, PC doesn't have the super-puper SS. Kozuka has not worse but he is not scored even nearly as PC, who is looking for the balance on each curve while Taka is flying.
Kozuka has not worse but he is not scored even nearly as PC, who is looking for the balance on each curve while Taka is flying.
This, Kozuka's PCS is very strange, especially if PCS is scored based on SS, as hurrah suggests. :scratch:
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
You recall, of course, that Suzuki was sidelined for a significant period of time while dealing with a severe eating disorder, and was never her federation's favorite afterward. It took her a long time to get herself noticed, nationally and internationally, and her reputation does not correspond to her age and experience. Plushenko has skated one full season out of the past seven, so what does that tell us? Because when it comes to PCS, it's kind of you snooze, you lose. Except maybe if you're Shen and Zhao coming back for the Olympic season.So it should favour Plushenko and Suzuki. And not Hanyu and Fernandez.
Fernandez is now in his seventh season skating senior events. His reputation has been built up gradually and his federation and coaches has played it smart. It helps that he's talented.
I do agree that Plushenko has at times been overmarked. I don't agree that he has been as egregiously overmarked as some skaters, and he has not won anything he didn't deserve.
Similar threads
