Should the base value of jumps be different for men and ladies?

[Phobiamaster856]

Should jump base values be different for ladies than it is for men?
Since the ISU increased the value of quads it seems as if the quad era is taking off again

Ladies skating however has regressed technically over the last few seasons and it is mainly due to the problem of the risk is not worth the reward (a similar scenario we saw with men's skating pre 2011)
If harder jumps like flip and lutz were worth more for ladies maybe we will see the technical contet pick up again like two triple lutzes in a program or tougher triple triple combinations being attempted

 

[l'etoile]

Above all, I don't understand why ISU insists on not changing the BV of triple lutz.

 

[FSGMT]

Yes, I think they reallu should: in the Ladies, there should be a bigger difference between flip/lutz and the other triples, and another big difference between flip and lutz. What about something like this:
3 LUTZ 6.5
3 FLIP 5.5
3 LOOP 5
3 SALCHOW 4.2
3 TOELOOP 4.1
What do you think?

 

[gkelly]

Let's ask all coaches who have taught female skaters to do medium-difficult triples. Is triple loop easier for all females who can do harder triples, or is there a sizable percentage of "toe jumpers" for whom triple flip is easier than triple loop?

I don't think most coaches could answer that question accurately because few will have successfully taught enough women to do those jumps to have a large enough sample size. But if we ask them all, we should get a more accurate answer.

I do think there is a general consensus that triple flip is closer in difficulty to triple loop than to triple lutz, as the most recent revision of the scale of values reflects.

* * * * *

My other question is this, and has a few sides to it.

Let's take it as a given that triple jumps are difficult and not all good skaters will be able to master all of them to consistent technical perfection. In particular, it is especially dificult for women to do triple lutz from a correct takeoff edge with full rotation. Therefore when it is done correctly we do want to reward it appropriately.

Is the goal to value this jump so highly that its successful presence in a program will often be the determining factor in the results? We recognize that only a minority of women will be able to perform it successfully, so therefore we want to stack the deck so that, if the other jumping and non-jumping skills are even in the same ballpark, the winner will be a someone who landed triple lutzes in both programs?

What about all the other skaters who can't do it at all, can only succeed inconsistently, or who almost always change edge and/or underrotate? Do we want to encourage them to put inevitably flawed attempts in their programs or do we want them to stick to jumps they have already mastered?

There are already benefits to being able to include the triple lutz, compared to doing everything else the same and leaving it out. So I don't think anyone who is leaving it out is doing so because they just don't feel like working on it. They're leaving it out because they are not currently able to take off from the correct edge, rotate, and land it consistently. If they're already doing all or most of the other triples, we can be pretty sure they have already put in plenty of time trying to master the triple lutz.

So is raising the point value even further likely to help them overcome whatever technical or athletic limitations have prevented them from mastering it consistently already?

 

[emma]

It is difficult for me to come up with a scenario where raising the point value even further for the lutz will help the kinds of ladies gkelly is referring to, which appear to be a sizable group of senior ladies. But, I have a question about juniors - I don't watch it enough, so I'm asking those who do: are junior lades learning better edges/take - offs with the lutz given the attention to the correct edge now and in recent years? Would 'scaring' them by a larger point spread be the 'benefit' of making a change at the senior level?

I would like to see more reward for a) all 5 triples in the LP; b) perhaps better rewards for triple triples, and then have a sequence count more than it does now (maybe and I emphasize maybe less than a triple triple, but more than 80% of BV for sure).

 

[gkelly]

Having a triple lutz in one's repertoire is already just as big advantage at the junior level as in seniors -- even moreso in the years when double or triple lutz is the required solo jump in the junior SP.

The penalties for wrong-edge takeoff are the same for juniors and seniors.

Wider hips seems to be a disadvantage for this jump in particular, so there are probably some girls who can do it as juniors and then lose the ability to rotate it completely taking from the correct edge as their bodies mature.

 

[Mathman]

I would like to see more reward for a) all 5 triples in the LP; b) perhaps better rewards for triple triples, and then have a sequence count more than it does now (maybe and I emphasize maybe less than a triple triple, but more than 80% of BV for sure).

On the other hand, there are already extra rewards bult in for triple-triples and for all five triples. Without a triple-triple (or a 2A-triple) and all five triples you can't skate a seven triple program.

For excample, if Kim Yu-na had a loop she could do something liker this:

3Lz
3Lz+3T
3F
3F+2Lo+2T
3Lo
3S
2A (or 2A+2A SEQ)

Seven triples, with the two highest repeated. Take away the loop (or any other triple) and she has to scramble.

Likewise, compared to this program, look how many points a skater would give up if the missing triple was the Lutz.

 

[bekalc]

I disagree that having all the triples gets you really rewarded. Look at Akiko's loss at NHK....And look at how some of the girls who do 7 triples get scored. Right now PCS are more important than TES.

Look, I don't think the sport should be all jumps jumps jumps. But I do think having all the triples and especially having a 3lutz-should be worth more than it is.

 

[creme cup]

I do think there should be some adjustments in BV, but I'm more worried about side effects.
If BV of flip or lutz gets higher, more skater will try the jump - even though the quality isn't quite good.
Raising BV might cause increase of wrong edge jumpers.
Even now, I see a lot of strange lutz or flip with incomprehensible entrance and shaky edge.

 

[bekalc]

I do think there should be some adjustments in BV, but I'm more worried about side effects.
If BV of flip or lutz gets higher, more skater will try the jump - even though the quality isn't quite good.
Raising BV might cause increase of wrong edge jumpers.
Even now, I see a lot of strange lutz or flip with incomprehensible entrance and shaky edge.

My only concern is the edge issues. I do think wrong edges should be punished.

 

[mary01]

no the base value of the jumps should not be different from the Men's and Women´s event, since that would change it into two different sports!

 

[draqq]

I think making the base values different between ladies and mens would unfortunately make an unintentional stance on gender inequality. I would rather see a rule that awards bonus points (at least 2) for performing all the different triples (plus 2A) correctly. That would make the 3Lz pretty much mandatory for the top ladies and encourage skaters to have a balanced technical program.

 

[pitterpatter]

I'm on the fence about different BVs, but scoring already does differ between the Mens and Ladies events, since PCS isn't factored uniformly.

 

[ivy]

I wonder how many of these skaters could do a full set of really excellently executed doubles with correct edges et al. Are they rushing to triples without getting doubles perfect.

How much harder is a triple toe compared to a correct double lutz?

 

[gkelly]

I wonder how many of these skaters could do a full set of really excellently executed doubles with correct edges et al. Are they rushing to triples without getting doubles perfect.

How much harder is a triple toe compared to a correct double lutz?

I guess one way to get a sense of this would be to look at novice ladies' protocols. How many are doing correct double lutzes (would you want +1 GOE or accept at least 0 with no edge call?) vs. how many are doing triple toe at all (GOE at least 0 or -1?).

At least that would be easier research to do than surveying coaches. Although there would be a lot more coaches who have taught multiple skaters to do 2Lz and 3T than who have taught multiple ladies to do 3Lo and 3F.

We'd need to find novice protocols from different parts of the world, though, because there might be regional trends at work beyond the absolute relative difficulty of the jumps.

Or the lower-ranked JGP short programs in a year when the solo jump is either loop or flip -- how many do correct 2Lz in their combinations vs. how many do 3T (or 3S)?

 

[OS]

I might be crazy, but I look at it purely from a Mathematical view since essentially COP is about Code of Points, where inclusion of whatever mix of technical element is almost secondary. It is NOT about incentivise the best well designed program (although it should be) but about generate the best well scored program. That is where Morozov got it right, exploiting the weakness of the system, and that is why the system sucks so much, and it need to be fixed.

To change in base value to address the imbalanced algorithm is a start, and it is not about treating it as 2 separate sport but acknowledging there are rule variables for different genders that have not been accounted properly in the first place.

In Senior FS program, there's 13 elements for men, and only 12 elements for ladies.
Men do 8 jumps 3 spins, 2 steps sequences have 4 min 30 seconds to do this.
Ladies do 7 jumps, 3 spins, 1 step sequence and 1 spiral sequence and have 4 minutes to do this.

Given how men are allowed to perform more elements than women and have extra 30 seconds time to do so, their program components are factored according to these differences. So no wonder any major changes to constant relative values like GOEs (include depreciate in scale) that were designed to reward the men for the quads and remove risks (GOE losses and gains, bonuses are redistributed to Quad BV) for hardest elements, would have such a weird effect for the women; considering women and men compete according to different elements and conditions in the first place.

No women does the quad currently, only 1 do the 3axel. The most tricky/rare element other than the 3A is suppose to be the 3Lutz point remained unchanged, which are widely acknowledged and accepted according to the history of this sport, while other jumps that have been inflated in value and depreciate in value made literally no difference when Lutz itself no longer get rewarded properly like before unlike the new BV of the quad and 3A. When the inflated 3T and 3L done with positive GOE can easily offset the risk for the 3Lz, and an UR 3A is worth practically the same as a fully rotated 3Lutz. The mathematicians behind these changes are either deliberately ignorant to these rippling effect to have affected the level playing field for the ladies, or were hopelessly negligent failed to cater for these risks/reward variables in the first place.

If they want to have the same set of relative GOE and apply to both genders in the first place, then women and men should be allowed to perform the same number of elements and within the same amount time. Then that is properly treated as 1 sport, but that would be more about make it convenient for the maths, but not the sport, and not the fact women and men do have different thresholds of performance.

I am not sure how to fix this without a major overhaul to the system. We can tweak it here, tweak it there, but we'll just ends up at the mercy of ISU, who can easily use this as power play to manage the feds or favour a particular type of skater du jour.

 

[ivy]

I guess one way to get a sense of this would be to look at novice ladies' protocols. How many are doing correct double lutzes (would you want +1 GOE or accept at least 0 with no edge call?) vs. how many are doing triple toe at all (GOE at least 0 or -1?).

At least that would be easier research to do than surveying coaches. Although there would be a lot more coaches who have taught multiple skaters to do 2Lz and 3T than who have taught multiple ladies to do 3Lo and 3F.

We'd need to find novice protocols from different parts of the world, though, because there might be regional trends at work beyond the absolute relative difficulty of the jumps.

Or the lower-ranked JGP short programs in a year when the solo jump is either loop or flip -- how many do correct 2Lz in their combinations vs. how many do 3T (or 3S)?

I think skaters would be served if they were consistently getting +2 and +3 on any given double jump before being allowed/encouraged to competed the same triple.

 

[gkelly]

I might be crazy, but I look at it purely from a Mathematical view since essentially COP is about Code of Points, where inclusion of whatever mix of technical element is almost secondary. It is NOT about incentivise the best well designed program (although it should be)

When you say "the best well designed program" do you mean a single ideal program design that every skater should attempt (and they'd all be measured on how well they succeed at executing the same thing)?

Or the best program design for each skater to showcase his/her own strengths, given that each skater has his/her own unique skill set with as many differences as commonalities?

Seems to me that the short program would tend more toward the former and the long program more toward the latter. Although if we wanted to redesign the program requirements so that everyone would be required to demonstrate all jump takeoffs, it might make sense to use a longer program time for the required-elements program and come up with different names that "short" and "long" to distinguish them.

If they want to have the same set of relative GOE and apply to both genders in the first place, then women and men should be allowed to perform the same number of elements and within the same amount time. Then that is properly treated as 1 sport, but that would be more about make it convenient for the maths, but not the sport, and not the fact women and men do have different thresholds of performance.

Good point. I can definitely make a case for lengthening the ladies' time limit and allowing one more element (not necessarily a jump element) and increasing the PCS factor accordingly. But that's probably a subject for a different thread.

Just for fun I'd also love to see a IJS-scored competition with elite skaters of both sexes using 2001-2010 ladies' SP elements (solo 2A required, no quads allowed in the solo jump or combination; layback and spiral sequence required).

I think skaters would be served if they were consistently getting +2 and +3 on any given double jump before being allowed/encouraged to competed the same triple.

Allowed by whom? Their coaches? Kind of hard to enforce across the board by any kind of rule.

You could encourage this approach by adjusting the Scale of Values to ensure that any double with +3 is worth more than the triple from the same takeoff with 0 GOE. We'd see a lot more cleaner programs with some excellent jumps -- and they would often win over programs with much more difficult jump content. I'm sure there would be complaints about that -- e.g., look how many people were unhappy with Laura Lepisto's bronze medal.

 

[OS]

When you say "the best well designed program" do you mean a single ideal program design that every skater should attempt (and they'd all be measured on how well they succeed at executing the same thing)?

Or the best program design for each skater to showcase his/her own strengths, given that each skater has his/her own unique skill set with as many differences as commonalities?

Seems to me that the short program would tend more toward the former and the long program more toward the latter. Although if we wanted to redesign the program requirements so that everyone would be required to demonstrate all jump takeoffs, it might make sense to use a longer program time for the required-elements program and come up with different names that "short" and "long" to distinguish them.

What is the "best well designed program"? Oh boy, isn't this the 64 million dollar question! It is like what is the best art, the best car, the best food? My guess is what I feel personally the best well designed program might not be same as yours, although it would be nice if it could be because we all agreed to the values and principles as well as the judging criterion which it is written.

In principle, I do think the judges should vigorously adhere to some good general art and design principles when marking for these programs for example, in particularly the PCS. I do think there should be additional formal guideline or even scoring that factor success and failure of the skater on the day beyond +-.25, +-0.5 off judge's impressions. As much as Carolina is revered for her skating skills and speed, if it is not on display on the day, she should not be award for it, and series of major mistakes likewise should be reflected more in the PCS than just just one major mistake.

Take Dieter Ram's 10 principles for industry design for example (Which Apple's chief designer Jonathan Ives follows)

Good design is innovative.
Good design makes a product useful.
Good design is aesthetic.
Good design makes a product understandable.
Good design is unobtrusive.
Good design is honest.
Good design has longevity.
Good design is consequent down to the last detail.
Good design is environmentally friendly.
Good design is as little design as possible.

I would add two more to his list that is more relevant to skating:

Good design is NOT formulaic
Good design is good execution

It would be nice if the design program can tick at least some of the above points. When the program fails more than 60-70%, then a red flag should be raised.
(I consider Yuna's Gershwin program fits majority of the above principles that is why I consider it as one of the greatest COP program of all time, but that is just me.)

I am hugely in favour of you advocating that FS should be truly free, in the sense other than satisfy the minimum requirement, the performers should be allowed to express a choreographed program that can showcase and highlight to their strength, unique qualities, and specialties. I also consider the need for 2nd panel of judges to able to give more literal interpretation and immediate impression on the performance of the day that is beyond the numeric. The survival of figure skating must be that it remains a spectator sport, and to celebrate diversity and unique qualities are the way forward where different audience can rewarded with the best of skater's abilities instead of watching more or the same cookie cutter program done over and over where choreography are done for the sake of COP and while ignoring spectating sport almost as an afterthought.

The Olympic Motto consist of Citius, Altius, Fortius, "Swifter, Higher, Stronger", that all athletes should always perform to their best abilities. I honest think something is lost in the ladies figure skating these 2 years, that does not conform to this sporting standard. It became about calculated risks, more about momentum building based on PCS over a season which only advantage certain senior ladies based on their built in PCS.

 

[gkelly]

I think there are two separate sets of questions we could ask. Maybe the first should be in this thread and the second in a separate thread.

1) What should the rules require and encourage of all skaters? (And reward them when they deliver it)
Examples of places to build in the rewards and their relative values would be in the short program required elements and long program well-balanced program rules, the Scale of Values, the rules for earning higher levels on leveled elements, with appropriate differences for different competitive disciplines (different sexes in the case of singles freestyle) and competitive levels.

2) How should judges evaluate and reward the program design -- as executed -- of different skaters in relation to a fixed standard and/or to each other?
This would be the place to look at program components, especially but not exclusively Choreography in relation to
What are the written criteria? How are they understood, applied, weighted against each other?
How could they be rewritten for better clarity or better agreement with a consensus of what constitutes good choreography (and good performance/execution and good musical interpretation)?

What can the rulemakers or the judges learn from fans or official consultants with extensive training in off-ice principles of choreography and other forms of design? What can nonskaters learn from skaters, skating choreographers, and judges/rulemakers about how the limits and possibilities of skating technique inform the parameters of good design within this specific medium? What about the ways that competitive rules under 1) above also shape the design possibilities in short programs differently than long, let alone the difference between competitive programs in general compared to programs designed for artistic performance contexts?