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- Dec 28, 2006
indeed. Carmen is about the ugly parts of humanity. other couples' flamenco hands and loving looks are't doing it justice.
Davis & White to regain World title?
- Thread starter pangtongfan
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indeed. Carmen is about the ugly parts of humanity. other couples' flamenco hands and loving looks are't doing it justice.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2004
Listening to Meryl and Charlie's interviews this season there is a recurring theme: we are prepared to work as much and as hard as it takes. Implied is that you may out-talent us, but you're not going to out-work us. Their programs this season show a striking amount of growth. I think it's very true that they have a four year plan that they are working toward every day. It reminds me of their Classroom Champion goal-setting lesson.
I'm often not an it getter when it comes to Tessa and Scott, but I like a lot of their Carmen program--especially the modern dance choreography. I don't enjoy the overtly sexual moves, not because I am a prude, but because, in my opinion, they lack the sexual chemistry to make those moves effective. They just look awkward and a little cringe-worthy.
I'm often not an it getter when it comes to Tessa and Scott, but I like a lot of their Carmen program--especially the modern dance choreography. I don't enjoy the overtly sexual moves, not because I am a prude, but because, in my opinion, they lack the sexual chemistry to make those moves effective. They just look awkward and a little cringe-worthy.
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- Aug 21, 2012
True, but they're still performing for an audience and a panel of judges, and you didn't see Michelle Kwan, Kaetlyn Osmond, or Kim Yuna sexualizing their Carmen programs. I think that there's a line, and the overtly sexual moves are toeing it.
I think it's likely that D/W would win 2013 Worlds. At Grand Prix, V/M weren't so lucky with their SD and now, they have problems with their FD.
We can't be sure that D/W will win Olympics until we see V/M and D/W's programs for next season.
I hope V/M doesn't try new things next season. If they do, they might end up like Domnina/Shabalin in 2009-2010 season.
We can't be sure that D/W will win Olympics until we see V/M and D/W's programs for next season.
I hope V/M doesn't try new things next season. If they do, they might end up like Domnina/Shabalin in 2009-2010 season.
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- Feb 27, 2012
Mods:
Thank you for adding the question mark to the thread title. :agree:
Olympia, thank you for being such an articulate voice of reason.
I would add:
Both Virtue/Moir and Davis/White have the desire and the work ethic. Both teams continue to raise the bar. Neither team is resting on its laurels. Both teams have discussed the importance of setting goals.
As to which team has "better" programs, we're all entitled to our opinions. But in the end, only the judges (and technical panel) determine the outcome of competitions.
(If I had a nickel
for every GS member who felt absolutely sure last season that D/W's FD was superior to V/M's ... and yet DF truly outscored FF only at WTT. Soon after the GPF, the ISU acknowledged that FF would have defeated DF if not for an error in calculating the overall results. And FF won Four Continents and Worlds outright.)
Thank you for adding the question mark to the thread title. :agree:
Olympia, thank you for being such an articulate voice of reason.
I would add:
Both Virtue/Moir and Davis/White have the desire and the work ethic. Both teams continue to raise the bar. Neither team is resting on its laurels. Both teams have discussed the importance of setting goals.
As to which team has "better" programs, we're all entitled to our opinions. But in the end, only the judges (and technical panel) determine the outcome of competitions.
(If I had a nickel
for every GS member who felt absolutely sure last season that D/W's FD was superior to V/M's ... and yet DF truly outscored FF only at WTT. Soon after the GPF, the ISU acknowledged that FF would have defeated DF if not for an error in calculating the overall results. And FF won Four Continents and Worlds outright.)
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Funny Face didn't feature blatant vulgarity the way Carmen does. V/M took a risk with this controversial program and it may not pay off the way they may have expected.
V/M's ick factor doesn't automatically mean D/W will regain their championship. If V/M can manage to skate Carmen cleanly and cohesively for the first time at Worlds, they will be formidable competition. D/W must perform their FD to the nth degree and get L4 on all their elements in both SD and FD.
V/M's ick factor doesn't automatically mean D/W will regain their championship. If V/M can manage to skate Carmen cleanly and cohesively for the first time at Worlds, they will be formidable competition. D/W must perform their FD to the nth degree and get L4 on all their elements in both SD and FD.
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I disagree. I wish V/M would really push themselves. I mean, Carmen? Really? I want them to really go outside the box. Enough of the male/ female dynamic. I know there's the whole uplifting thing, but I would love to see them try Night on Bald Mountain. They are Olympic and World champions. They can afford to be innovative, but I don't think they are. They get compared to Torvill and Dean, but T/D were way more innovative. That's what I want to see from V/M.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2003
Agree with this. I think Carmen is their biggest stretch artistically, and I like it. But, if they lose Worlds this year, I fully expect to see a return to their standard romantic/whimsical material for the Olympic year. I think Scott Moir cares a lot more about winning than artistic development (can't say I blame him, it is sport after all), and I expect he will insist on a return to the proven formula.
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- Feb 27, 2012
But they've done it before. 2009 4cc, 2011 GPF. And it's not like competiting in Canada always helps skaters. Patrick Chan lost Skate Canada, Dubreuil and Lauzon finished second at worlds in Calgary, and Bourne and Kraatz finished completely off the podium at worlds 2001 in Vancouver.
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- Jun 16, 2010
Being in Canada makes no difference. D&W have beaten V&M numerous times in Canada already, and last year their only win in a season they were dominated by V&M was an easy win at a major event in Canada. If V&M somehow upset D&W for the World title this year, it will be because they deserved it, and the judging panel on the day prefered them, not because of the location.
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- Nov 20, 2011
more like a scandal if V/M win over D/W
D/W have been closing the gap with V/M every season their pcs difference isn't that much debatable now
D/W always were faster, have good flow and I really like their programs.
As I said before, IMO V/M are handicapped by their Carmen FD. The judges have consistently awarded V/M lower PCS scores than they've given D/W, perhaps a reaction to the sometimes vulgar choreography. The choreography itself incorporates overly difficult lifts and abrupt changes of position that V/M don't seem to be able to execute smoothly. They've never seemed to be at all comfortable with the program.
Having Worlds in Canada won't guarantee V/M the win. They have to come up with a FD that works well for them and perform it lights out. It doesn't help that there will be no Canadian judge on the dance panels.
Having Worlds in Canada won't guarantee V/M the win. They have to come up with a FD that works well for them and perform it lights out. It doesn't help that there will be no Canadian judge on the dance panels.
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- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Adding to pangtongfan's good point:
In Quebec last season, Virtue/Moir were hoping to win their first GPF title (which still eludes them). Accomplishing that goal in front of a home crowd would have been especially sweet, but the judging was in Davis/White's favor.
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- Jan 28, 2013
I think this WC is a pivotal moment in this rivalry.
If V/M suffer a third defeat at the hands of D/W, it a very big deal from a sports psychology point-of-view heading into an Olympic season.
I imagine that at the level these skaters are competing, even the tiniest doubt that they can beat them will have consequences.
If V/M suffer a third defeat at the hands of D/W, it a very big deal from a sports psychology point-of-view heading into an Olympic season.
I imagine that at the level these skaters are competing, even the tiniest doubt that they can beat them will have consequences.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2012
I'm sure V/M aren't seeing their 4CC silver as a "true" loss to D/W. They did have that break that still makes an impact on their scores despite no explicit deductions.
With ice dancing, they are essentially on par with a very close margin of defeat. I don't think there are any true psychological consequences for either team.
With ice dancing, they are essentially on par with a very close margin of defeat. I don't think there are any true psychological consequences for either team.
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- Jul 26, 2003
Olympia, very true 
:love"
I don't think this is practical. T&D's closest rivals were Bestemianova & Bukin, who could NEVER begin to approach the British team technically; consequently T&D had the freedom to take ice dance exactly where they wanted it to go, and the judges would follow them. Because V&M and D&W are so close, neither team can rely on the judges taking their lead, and neither really has the freedom to suddenly skate to silence ("Oscar Tango" in pros) or to one piece of music without really "light" or "shade" ("Bolero") or to flirt with rules about lifts & so forth without losing points.
Good point; however D&W did win a second time in the 2011-2012 season, at WTT, so each team won 2 events in faceoffs against each other last season.
This is a good point. It never helps when a team doesn't have a judge on either the judging or technical panel.
Actually, in Quebec, Scott Moir had a catastrophic fall in the SD. This put V&M so far behind that whether the scoring glitsch were fixed or not, D&W would have won. The judges didn't come into it that much. It's possible that the pressure of competing at home, that inspired the Canadians at the Vancouver Olympics, got to V&M at that event.
I refuse to predict anything about the future for either team, but I can't wait to see what programs they'll chose next season. And I hope neither will retire after Sochi. I'll be devastated when either decides it's time to go on to the next stage of their lives.
:love"I don't think this is practical. T&D's closest rivals were Bestemianova & Bukin, who could NEVER begin to approach the British team technically; consequently T&D had the freedom to take ice dance exactly where they wanted it to go, and the judges would follow them. Because V&M and D&W are so close, neither team can rely on the judges taking their lead, and neither really has the freedom to suddenly skate to silence ("Oscar Tango" in pros) or to one piece of music without really "light" or "shade" ("Bolero") or to flirt with rules about lifts & so forth without losing points.
Good point; however D&W did win a second time in the 2011-2012 season, at WTT, so each team won 2 events in faceoffs against each other last season.
This is a good point. It never helps when a team doesn't have a judge on either the judging or technical panel.
Actually, in Quebec, Scott Moir had a catastrophic fall in the SD. This put V&M so far behind that whether the scoring glitsch were fixed or not, D&W would have won. The judges didn't come into it that much. It's possible that the pressure of competing at home, that inspired the Canadians at the Vancouver Olympics, got to V&M at that event.
I refuse to predict anything about the future for either team, but I can't wait to see what programs they'll chose next season. And I hope neither will retire after Sochi. I'll be devastated when either decides it's time to go on to the next stage of their lives.
Honestly I don't care which team wins at Worlds, (or even at Sochi for that matter). I'm just thrilled that I'll be getting another chance of watching the two best ice dancing teams in the world out there on the ice yet again, and you're practically guaranteed of getting the best showdown of the competition.
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