Ice Dance FD - 2013-14 Grand Prix Final

[Apple Pi]

None of the other teams from 2nd to 6th place got anything lower than 6 on PCS.
Whether the judge was a North American or not is unknown.

V/M skated 5th in the skate order, before the 2nd - 6th place teams were on the ice. All the teams that skated before V/M got PCS less than 6.

I said non North-American to keep the identity of the judge who made a mistake secret. Because this person was clearly not up with the times.

 

[Matt K]

Aside from the erroneous judge, there was also Judge 8 who gave them lower PCS (in the 7s for SS). Wonder who that could be.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2011/fc2011_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf

Aside from the erroneous marks at that event:
I so wish the ISU would get rid of this anonymous judging. Bias/erroneous judging from one single judge happens frequently in singles and pairs skating too. Unfortunately they get to hide behind the curtain until they mess up enough times to be suspended. Might also help some like me from having to speculate

 

[Apple Pi]

Aside from the erroneous judge, there was also Judge 8 who gave them lower PCS (in the 7s for SS). Wonder who that could be.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2011/fc2011_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf

I so wish the ISU would get rid of this anonymous judging. Bias/erroneous judging from one single judge happens frequently in singles and pairs skating. Unfortunately they get to hide behind the curtain until they mess up enough times to be suspended. Might also help some like me from having to speculate

There is also a judge who gave D/W PCS primarily in the 7s. They are likely also the person who gave W/P a 6.5 for SS. My hypothesis is that they scored everyone a little lower, but consistently, which is fine. Context is important.

 

[Mathman]

Unfortunately they get to hide behind the curtain until they mess up enough times to be suspended.

The way the review process works, this is practically impossible (although there are about a dozen or so reprimands or demotions per year, about half of them in ice dance). There is a referees review after each event where they chat about things, but in order for an official "anomaly" to be charged against a judge for PCS that judge would have to be off from the average by a total of 7.5 points (1.5 points for each component).

In this contest the low judge for Virtue and Moir was off by about 3.23 for the short program and 2.89 for the long -- both well within the "corridor." (These are estimates only, because the "average" that the ISU uses includes not only the marks of all nine judges but also the scores of the referee (counted twice) and the scores of any member of the Judges Oversight Committee who happen to be present at the event.)

On the other hand, the ISU knows who the judges are, even if we don't. If it is really true that a particular judge is picking on Virtue and Moir over and over, it seems like David Dore could raise some sand about it.

 

[Matt K]

V/M skated 5th in the skate order, before the 2nd - 6th place teams were on the ice. All the teams that skated before V/M got PCS less than 6.

I said non North-American to keep the identity of the judge who made a mistake secret. Because this person was clearly not up with the times.

I have heard that the judge who gave V/M PCS in the 5s was not a North American judge and thought that the PCS marks were out of 6.0, like the old system.

Sounds crazy but V/M skated very early on the skate order, so the judge likely realized their huge mistake afterwards.

I don't think that's true.
I did some more digging into all the ice dance judges at the 2011 Four Continents. They ALL have previously, before the 2011 4C event, judged at some ISU ice dance GP event under the IJS, junior or senior, but mostly senior. And in all cases I checked, each of these judges have given marks greater than 6.0 in those cases as per the protocols for those events.

So the 5s given by that one judge was definitely not due to his/her thinking that it was a 6.0 system. Either that judge was biased or a newbie or some other reason (like a mistake), but definitely they have given marks greater than 6.0s in the past.

Besides, it takes several years of training to be judge at the ISU level, and then there's the exam which they all have to pass under the IJS system. There's no way any judge could/would be tricked into thinking they are judging under some old system. They are constantly evaluated at certain points in the years they are training to be a judge, if she or he thought he/she was judging under the 6.0 system there would be no way they would be able to continue on.

There may have been rumours from GS archives or FSU during that time about the judge thinking it was a 6.0 system, but it's not true at all.

 

[Mathman]

I don't know, Matt. It sounds plausible to me. You're a little bit sleepy, trying to time lifts or whatever judges do, you see a fine program and you say to yourself, well it wasn't quite perfect but pretty darn close. I'll knock off half a point and give it a 5.5. Ten minutes later you glance at the protocols and say, oh bleep! what have I done?! :yes:

 

[Matt K]

V/M skated 5th in the skate order, before the 2nd - 6th place teams were on the ice. All the teams that skated before V/M got PCS less than 6.

I said non North-American to keep the identity of the judge who made a mistake secret. Because this person was clearly not up with the times.

I don't know, Matt. It sounds plausible to me. You're a little bit sleepy, trying to time lifts or whatever judges do, you see a fine program and you say to yourself, well it wasn't quite perfect but pretty darn close. I'll knock off half a point and give it a 5.5. Ten minutes later you glance at the protocols and say, oh bleep! what have I done?! :yes:

Yes, true, it could have been a mistake. I understand the number 5 is right below the number 8 in the number keypad, if that's what he/she intended to go for. But missing the key all 5 times?

 

[RABID]

I totally agree. V/M are ice dancing whereas D/W perform like race horses. There is no comparison.

What I see is the pair of V/M skate with a mature and sensual connection to each other that to my mind seems very adult. What I see from D/W on the other hand seems more like something out of a Disney movie like say, Beauty and The Beast, Cinderella, more fantasy-like and romantic. It is a matter of preference of course but I, who usually could care less about a skater's nationality really prefer V/M's skating style and am actually quite proud of the fact that they are Canadians because of that adult maturity they both skate with. This competition they were everything they could be. Shame it was apparently not good enough.

 

[Big Deal]

I have no national bias not being American nor Canadian.

Both couple are great, one of the all-time greats.
The difference is V/M has the techique AND the soul to be a great dance couple. They are gliding on the ice.
D/W hooping and springing on the ice to get the speed, they are not creating the speed with rise and fall of the knees and ankle, but doing more with their hoopla-hoopla technique (especially Meryl). This weekness avoid them to be as sophisticated as V/M.
Zoueva is great to hide this weakness with her choreo, but to see V/M to loose with a performance like this is the same way painful than in 1994, when Torvil/Dean lost to Grishchuk/Platov.

 

[bramweld]

D/W may not have the connection or edging quality of V/M but they have a freshness in their FD and I have not been a fan of their skating since maybe Samson and Delilah. They were not at their best here maybe because of the pressure, but that program has way more interest points and complexity than V/M. V/M went too safe, this F/D just feels like a bland, bland rehashing of Mahler that they have to try too hard to sell. They could have skated to anything else but this. It lacks that wow factor for me. I/K and W/P, though less accomplished are way more interesting to watch this season, IMHO.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Davis and white looked a tad "off" for the first minute or so..they have it everything in the second half, but honestly the performance did not have the effortless sharpness we saw from them earlier in the season.

Virtue and Moir should have taken this one, yes it was very close bit I think the Candians were a tad more impressive this weekend. D/W's win seems to solidify the fact that whoever is politicking had set them up to win gold in Sochi and that they are now the favorites. The OGM is theirs to lose.

 

[bramweld]

As it should be they have the better program. D/W that is.

 

[blackswanphoto]

As it should be they have the better program. D/W that is.

I see no lies....

 

[RABID]

As it should be they have the better program. D/W that is.

You're entitled to your OPINION.

 

[bramweld]

You're entitled to your OPINION.

Oh my

 

[wasabi]

I loved V/M 's Carmen. Should have been this years Oly program. As it is I find, this program, as another poster said, quite bland. If you turned off the music and played Mahler instead, I am not sure you could tell the difference.
I give it to D/W.

 

[BlackPack]

What I see is the pair of V/M skate with a mature and sensual connection to each other that to my mind seems very adult. What I see from D/W on the other hand seems more like something out of a Disney movie like say, Beauty and The Beast, Cinderella, more fantasy-like and romantic. It is a matter of preference of course but I, who usually could care less about a skater's nationality really prefer V/M's skating style and am actually quite proud of the fact that they are Canadians because of that adult maturity they both skate with. This competition they were everything they could be. Shame it was apparently not good enough.

I don't get the criticism that D&W are Disney skaters. Samson and Delilah, Borodin, Tango, Phantom of the Opera, Bollywood, Sheherazade, etc. were all masterpieces with mature style and interpretation. They are not romantic skaters. They are athletic skaters. That's what I prefer. I can't stand the sappy romance of V&M and G&G, but I don't discount their genius either.

 

[RABID]

I don't get the criticism that D&W are Disney skaters. Samson and Delilah, Borodin, Tango, Phantom of the Opera, Bollywood, Sheherazade, etc. were all masterpieces with mature style and interpretation. They are not romantic skaters. They are athletic skaters. That's what I prefer. I can't stand the sappy romance of V&M and G&G, but I don't discount their genius either.

That isn't a criticism. D/W skate beautifully, they truly do. But they have a style and the style looks how I have described it. And when you say V/M and sappy romance in the same sentence; THAT I don't get. At all. To put it bluntly, D/W represent the "G" rated Disney school of ice dancing and V/M represent the "PG" rated MGM school of ice dancing. (MGM was famous for their musicals and dance films). Of course, this is my opinion.

 

[wallylutz]

Since you asked I'll take you up on your offer. I researched the events that SHAWN RETTSTATT (USA) has judged V/M in from all the events from last year and this year. And in these events that Shawn Rettstatt was judging V/M, there is always one judge's set of marks for V/M that are significantly lower than the rest . Most interesting is at Worlds 2013 SD (where he sat on the panel and V/M got lowballed by one judge) vs the FD (in which he did not sit on the panel and V/M's marks rose again). I'll get to this near the end of the post.

CoR 2012: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2012/
V/M judge #5 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2012/gprus2012_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
V/M judge #2 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2012/gprus2012_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

GPF 2012: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/
V/M judge #1 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/gpf1213_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
V/M judge # 5 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/gpf1213_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

GPF 2013: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/
V/M judge #7 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
V/M judge #1 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

Worlds 2013, SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013
V/M judge #1 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf

In the FD, unlike the SD, SHAWN RETTSTATT (USA) was not drawn to judge on the FD panel. And surprise, surprise. In that segment, V/M didn't get lowballed by a single judge. In fact every single one of them gave them at least a 10.00 somewhere in PCS and all marks across the FD panel were consistently in the mid to high 9s - 10s: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf

Very interesting compilation, thanks for doing the work Matt K. I am glad you are the one who researched into this because with these forums getting extremely polarized and nasty, a number of us would have again been accused of having a secret agenda for simply posting facts. As an Australian, your statement placated them completely, taking away their favorite method of accusing another poster of bias as a cope out instead of addressing the issue. Having said that, these evidences are circumstantial and not actionable. It would however be interesting to see if the trend continues somehow. Perhaps CBC or another major Canadian media could be interested in picking up the story and do some investigation of their own given it's the Olympic year and Bloc Judging or any sort corrupted judging is still a topic that can sell.

I think it's hilarious whichever judge gave V/M 5s in all PCS marks at 2011 4CC, though. Shawn Rettstatt or not, seeing those numbers on paper is pretty funny You'd think that she or he would know better and might actually be asked to provide some explanation in the roundtable discussions.

They would do no such thing at the RTD. At the RTD, judges would have to volunteer if they wish to disclose their marks - they will not be forced in anyway. It's highly unlikely the judge who gave V/M 5s will volunteer. Even if there is any suspicion of improper actions, any review process will not be done at RTD but after and in private - not public naming & shaming.

You mentioned that "But in the end, again, it doesn't matter because the scores were thrown out". But when marks are so close between V/M and D/W, it does make a difference. At this particular GPF in Japan this one judge's marks for V/M were glaringly obvious in both SD and FD (8s?) that I hope is looked into.

You are correct that indeed it could make a difference in that it allows some of the lower marks be kept instead, which in itself may be below average still. Let's use this sorted example :

8.00 8.75 9.25 9.25 9.5 9.5 9.5 9.75 9.75 9.75

Instead of 8.75 being thrown out simply because that mark is from a strict judge who was consistent with everyone, the 8.00 (low ball) is thrown out instead. Low marks from a strict judge who is consistent with all skaters is not an issue but when a judge intentionally low ball someone - that becomes problematic and its impact could still be felt even if it's thrown out.

 

[wallylutz]

If Chock & Bates get 8.75 in any PCS component, I'll be thrilled.

It's hard to believe any judge got away without a reprimand giving V&M 5's in any PCS component...that is just so not right.

One single incident is generally insufficient to reprimand anybody, especially if the person construed it as a genuine keystroke mistake.