South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

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The commitment to take away the gold from Sotnikiva is very strong. You have balkov, shekhovtseva,Lakernik, and baranova along with others possibly like Kulik of Estonia giving falsely high scores to sotnikova to have her win because she is russian and they are russian or Russia allies. So this is prima facie evidence of cheating and her scores being illegimate and a reason for removal of gold from sotnikova and so gold can be given to Yuna.

Ukrainian delegation did not show up during paraolympic opening ceremony. So it is a good sign of their beeing "Russia allies". You could see how Ukraine and some other FSU countries vote for Russia during Eurovision nowadays. Thinking that judges from these countries would favor any Russian skater for me is ridiculous. Well, would be much less so if personalized scores were published and one could clearly see the "block voting". That is the only point. And unless it happens, everything else is libel or false accusations.

 

[GF2445]

I personally am quite indifferent to the ladies' result. All points have been said about the ladies event so there is no need to get into that, I care more that the sport deserves better. Actually, in my opinion Cinquanta has failed both figure skating (all five disciplines) as well as speed skating (not raking in the money) and if both sports are to move on and succeed, the isu needs a cleaning from the top down.

Its time that Cinquanta's skeleton closet be pried opened for the sporting world to see the mess he has made of this great sport. Hopefully its the IOC who is taking this on rather than the ISU because the ISU is nothing but self defensive.

I believe that it can be possible to have a world skating organisation that governs all four skating disciplines in a successful way but there needs to be radical changes now.

Back to point, we will see how this complaint goes. Korea is a big player in the isu as it is strong in short track and their figure skating program has grown alot. They pay top dollar to bradcast skating sports on korean tv so if this complaint falls on deaf ears, they can threaten to withdraw broadcasting you never know...

 

[gmyers]

Ukrainian delegation did not show up during paraolympic opening ceremony. So it is a good sign of their beeing "Russia allies". You could see how Ukraine and some other FSU countries vote for Russia during Eurovision nowadays. Thinking that judges from these countries would favor any Russian skater for me is ridiculous. Well, would be much less so if personalized scores were published and one could clearly see the "block voting". That is the only point. And unless it happens, everything else is libel or false accusations.

All in know is what is being said by South Korea and others that the panel of judges and technical panel was too russian and that there was a prominent fixer on the panel. The Brennan USA today argument which has been adopted and expanded upon by others goes the soviet skating federation was russian dominated and even in ukraine and Estonia it is ethnic Russians that work for the Russian federations goals that still hold power in Estonia and ukraine. Also Finland submitted an alleged former coach of sotnikova in Russia before she moved to Finland - baranova who still works for Russian federation in judging but who is a main judge of Finland.

 

[capcomeback]

Are we even watching the same Sochi stsq by Mao and Yuna? No one would deny that Mao's was much more difficult than Yuna's (and everybody's in fact), and she did dip, move her arms, head and torso more, and at a greater speed than Yuna. As long as her arm, head, torso moves were challenging to her balance for 1/3, they were counted in Feature 3. Her upper body was leaned a lot to the side, which also counts as creating an off-centered weight distribution, not just forwards and backwards like Caro's. Her upper body moves were not as frequent as Caro's but still lasted 1/3 of the duration and her other aspects more than made up to rank ahead of Caro's stsq, in my opinion, and many others', it seems. Mao's stsq was insanely difficult.

Of course "simpler" matters, as Levels are awarded according to difficulty, and there are bullet points for all 4 Features to consider. Yuna satisfied the minimum for three Features but probably not Feature #3. I don't have the exact details of the Tech Panel which feature they marked hers as missing, but my own observation is Feature #3.

As for GOE, I think Yuna executed just fine, though I would suggest that for Level 4, she would need to create a crescendo with the step sequence and throw her very being into a full performance to get the audience on her side like Caro and Mao did. I like to watch stsq because of the thrilling experience and full expression of the skaters to give meaning to the theme of the choreography. Jumps and spins, though spectacular, are standard fare, and the stsq is the part where the choreography can really shine. Caro's Bolero stsq is prefaced with an "announcement", a sort of a forward bow, the audience goes wild when they see that in expectation of her brilliant performance.

"Create a crescendo with the step sequence "? This is a completely subjective measure that you are trying to assess. You aren't commenting on Adelina's sloppy edges, compared to Yuna, Mao, Carolina and Julia. These can actually be measured technically (and have been commented on by skaters who belong to this board).

From a musicality standpoint (since you used the word "crescendo" which is a musical term, I thought I should comment), Yuna's program was a lot more sophisticated and sensitive (aided by her choice of music).I never sensed a "crescendo" in Adelina stsq. I also saw no crescendo or build in her skating in general. From what I saw, Adelina's programs had two speeds: Disjunctive slow and frenetic discombobulation faster. Neither could really pass for great artistry (neither really had until recently).

Adelina has talent, but let's not kid ourselves here. South Korea has every right to complain about this. While Adelina was "podium worthy" (based upon what happened with Mao), she was not worthy of being an Olympic champion (let alone scoring the second best performance ever). She made some nice jumps and spins. but her GOE was dramatically inflated and she benefited from a sloppy (or possibly corrupt) technical panel.

 

[Rubirosa]

South Korea has every right to complain about this. While Adelina was "podium worthy" (based upon what happened with Mao), she was not worthy of being an Olympic champion (let alone scoring the second best performance ever). She made some nice jumps and spins. but her GOE was dramatically inflated and she benefited from a sloppy (or possibly corrupt) technical panel.

When Yuna fans will get that complain to DC is not and cannot be about results. Its about how panel was made. NO RUSSIANS!!! That is what they are screaming. To satisfy this claim the country shall not be ISU member.

 

[Alvoff]

Let's make a panel of judges from countries that are not participating in the competition - that you would suggest? Great, then judges would be from the countries with no figure skating. It is ridiculous!

 

[ILoveFigures]

Let's make a panel of judges from countries that are not participating in the competition - that you would suggest? Great, then judges would be from the countries with no figure skating. It is ridiculous!

Exactly how is this ridiculous? You don't think there are competent people from non-participating countries? Why does it work in gymnastics, both artistic and rhythmic, while it would be hopeless in figure skating?

 

[Alvoff]

Exactly, competent people are from participating countries. You could check it yourself looking on the list of international judges.

 

[bara1968]

One judge from each contry of the participants would be alright, since highest and the lowest GOE and PCS will be thrown out. The bigger problem is, Tech panels being strongly related to the one particular country. Under IJS, Tech panels are just too strong and can manipulate the TES easily by giving a certain skater higher level of stsq/spin or by throwing harsh UR calls to everyone but one skater. Sochi's biggest problem was that 2 out of 3 tech panels were Russian or Russian-related in the Russian Olympics. This cannot happen any more.

 

[Anastasi14]

Let's make a panel of judges from countries that are not participating in the competition - that you would suggest? Great, then judges would be from the countries with no figure skating. It is ridiculous!

why? the judge doesn't need to be a former-skater, so why it should be a problem if he/she will be from non figure skating country. I don't see the problem if the person will pass all the exams, learn all the material and will get the accreditation.

 

[usethis2]

I do not have a dog in the fight between Korea and Russia outside of judging issues (which affects everyone, not just Koreans and Russians), but it is a mistaken idea that countries with fewer prominent skaters do not have qualified judges. You do not have to be elite skaters to understand and administer rules and give points. The idea that judges from big federations are better qualified is a total myth, IMO. There is no proof a Belgian judge is less qualified than a Japanese judge, for example.

Actually what concerns me more is that judges from smaller federations may be influenced or bribed by bigger federations. As long as there are some kind of safe-guards to mitigate such, I actually think it's better to have judges from smaller federations whose skaters are not medal contenders, especially for big events like WC and Olympics.

 

[KKonas]

why? the judge doesn't need to be a former-skater, so why it should be a problem if he/she will be from non figure skating country. I don't see the problem if the person will pass all the exams, learn all the material and will get the accreditation.

Not so simple. To become an ISU judge you not only have to pass exams but have to show a history of past judging experience from your country to even be nominated from your country. (Very difficult to do if you are from a non figure skating country.) All current ISU judges must do a certain number of international competitions within a specific period of time to keep their ISU designation.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

Great thanks for this post. It's good to have a Korean here and get the insider information right from the source That's why I love international fan forums.

So very sad but the news don't surprise me at all. It's ironic because the stereotype says that falling apart with the people and fans would suit North Korea but it’s South Korea. Alas, the consumer society may be less violent because people tend to solve their problems by means of money but it definitely isn’t more honest.

I don’t want to be provoking but once you’re here and I always wanted to ask an insider: do you remember the 2002 WC in soccer? There was a judging scandal, too. It was when the talks started that technology should be involved to register the goal in soccer. What was/is Korean opinion regarding this?
It’s no problem if you can't or are not interested to answer. Soccer and figure skating are free to remain on different planets

Although soccer and fs is very much different, I am surely interested in soccer and opened to talk about it. I guess the biggest issue was korea vs spain. If I were spanish, I would almost kill that judge at the sideline. It wasn't clearly out nor it was offside. The goal should have been counted. Also on the italian vs korea, I would blame both countries as well as the main referee. The game as a whole was brutal and violent. Both countries were kept fouling each other as referee started overlook for both countries. So to sum it up, I agree that instant video replay should be registered.

moreover, there were boxing scandal in 1988 seoul olympic as you guys might have heard. The fix was in. but korean boxer admitted himself of the unfair judging. Allegedly, Park himself apologized to Jones afterward. One judge shortly thereafter admitted the decision was a mistake, and all three judges voting against Jones were eventually suspended. Jones was awarded the Val Barker trophy, as the best stylistic boxer of the 1988 games

So I think this scandal should also be investigated and suspend those judges. Moreover, the rule should also be reformed. And hopefully award kim with gold medal like they did in 2002 salt lake.

 

[Tutto]

http://www.sovsport.ru/sochi/texts/text-item/703851

Adelina gave a telephone interview to the 'Soviet Sport' following the news of filed complaint widely discussed today in Russian media. Adelina said: ''This medal is mine and I am not giving it back no matter what. I won my gold medal fair and square''.

She also said that in Japan where she is participating in a show, she receives a warm welcome and nobody seem to have any issues with her win. In her opinion only the Koreans are still discussing the matter (thats where she is wrong!)

 

[sk8in]

So because everyone has been explaining the Sochi results with the word 'technical' and 'jumps,' I wanted to look over GOEs of each skater. I noticed that on Yuna's FS double axles, she did footwork, and an ina bauer, and her final spin sequence all immediately preceding or following---and they were ranked lower than Sotnikova's stand alone double axel, which she just skated to after her triple Salchow, with no musicality and 0 component or footwork elements.

That said, I think a more fascinating exercise in this is comparing the skaters to themselves, in addition to eachother---in order to get some sense of the judges' standards.

Shorts:
Adelina short at Europeans 2014:
She gave basically an identical short program to Sochi. At Sochi her score went up half a point on her step sequence, and then just slightly on her opening combo. Her components did go up two points. Particularly her interpretation went from a 7.75 to a 9.04. By comparison, Yuna received harsher GOEs during her short at the 13' WCs, with an edge call on her flip. It is hard to compare Yuna's Sochi GOEs to anything earlier than that, so the short requires a more direct comparison of the skaters to make a case.

One point I want to focus on again weirdly, is the 2A. Both at Worlds and at Sochi Yuna did spread eagles going into her 2A, whereas Adelina jumped into her's without a transition. For Send in the Clowns Yuna did a two eagles on both edges. That one got her a better GOE than Adelina, but it was still not even a tenth of a point (1.07 vs 1.00). The one at Worlds was marked less than 1.00. Now I know these are in part different competitions, and Adelina does have a great axel jump---but this is one discrepancy I can't really explain.

Other than that, should Yuna's 3Lz+3T really have lower GOE than Adelina's 3T+3T? Again, Yuna's GOE here actually went up from Worlds (at least in the short). In both instances Yuna was skating in an earlier group, but it is known as her show piece element. Nonetheless it is a harder argument to make objectively.

EuroCh scores short: http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2014/ec2014_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
WC2013 scores: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
Sochi scores (short): http://www.sochi2014.com/en/figure-skating-ladies-short-program

Free Skates:
Where things get interesting to me is comparing Adelina's long program GOEs at the European Champions to those at Sochi. It wasn't a clean skate, but many elements were clean, and performed at least as well as they were at Sochi. Her 3F went from 1.1 to 1.5. Her 2A+3T went from 1.4 to 1.8. She has a 3S+2T at Euros with a .4 GOE, and then a 3S by itself at Sochi (which again, she did without transitions) that got a 1.20 GOE. Her 2A on its own (no transitions) went from .64 at Euros to 1.07 at Sochi. This is an overall extra 2.43 points added to Adelina's own standard, granted at the judges discretion.

EuroCh scores long: http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2014/ec2014_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Sochi scores (free skate): http://www.sochi2014.com/en/figure-skating-ladies-free-skating

Yuna:
Going back to Yuna's Worlds, her free skate actually was not judged so harshly. In fact comparing her 2013 free skate at Worlds to Sochi, she went down from a 1.90 vs a 1.60 GOE on her opening combination. Her 3F is 1.90 to a 1.20 (no lip on either). Her step sequence was 1.40 vs 1.14. And speaking of her double axel, her combination spin (otherwise identical) was .5 higher at Worlds, despite not having that complicated backwards entry, immediately out of a jump. This is a loss of 1.76 points on Yuna's standard of GOE, again purely at the discretion of the judges.

WC2013 scores: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Sochi scores (free skate): http://www.sochi2014.com/en/figure-skating-ladies-free-skating

Overall we have a swing of 4.19 points in Adelina's favor, purely in the discrepancy between how many points each skater was awarded in the past for clean elements. This is without considering component scores, or actually looking at the elements themselves to come up with a more pure/abstract standard of excellence.

So I mean, when considering the legitimacy of GOE scores you can look at what you think the elements are worth themselves. I supposed you could argue that reputation scoring just kicked in at the right time for Sotnikova (although she didn't skate clean during the free at Euro... so maybe not), and tapered off at the wrong time for Yuna. But there does seem to be a systematic pattern of lowering Yuna's GOEs and elevating Sotnikova's. Cinquanta wants evidence---to me this is evidence.

Largely the controversy stems from the idea of figure skating judges' impunity over scoring. Sotnikova's defenders kept bringing up TES---the base value for all her elements. 1 more triple=5 more points=winning by 5 points. While this argument ignores the component half of the score, and seems to espouse the idea of skating as a "sport" and the notion that objectivity trumps artistic impression---it is very important to investigate how the GOE system allows judges to shape the technical elements score practically as much as the components score . There are 12 technical elements in a free skate---for every one of those elements the judges have impunity to bolster the base value, and to a lesser extent subtract from that base value---creating a 6 point swing. There are some rules for how these points are handed out (two foot landing, etc have mandatory minuses), however of each skater's program is within 5 points of one another, and they all skate relatively clean programs, it essentially allows the judges to choose who's program was technically the best. Awarding these points isn't a matter of technical difficulty, it is a matter of personal discretion on the judges' parts.

So in close, Yuna performed three 3Lz and two 3F. Adelina performed one more triple overall, and that triple was in the bonus section of the free skate. But where as Yuna performed a 3Lz in the bonus section, Adelina performed an easier 3F. Adelina's extra bonus section triple was a 3T, which is the easiest jump. To say Adelina's program was that much more technically difficult as an explanation for the outcome is simply a matter of spin and obfuscation. The competition at Sochi between Yuna and Adelina was decided by GOEs and PCS which the judges have full control over. It was the judges preference that decided the OGM at Sochi. Not the difficuly of triple or spin or footwork sequence from Adelina.

 

[AlexRus]

When Yuna fans will get that complain to DC is not and cannot be about results. Its about how panel was made. NO RUSSIANS!!! That is what they are screaming.

Hmmm...
If they want absolutely clean judging - they must remember how good was Kostnes at OWG, Yuna may be not first on this reason.
No doubt Yuna skated at OWG worse than at Worlds-2013.

To satisfy this claim the country shall not be ISU member.

And degrade female and pair skating dramatically.
Russia now is the only country which has 3 spots in all the 4 disciplines at JrWorlds, also it has 3 spots in 3 disciplines and 2 spots in one (Men) at Worlds.

 

[jkun]

http://www.sovsport.ru/sochi/texts/text-item/703851

Adelina gave a telephone interview to the 'Soviet Sport' following the news of filed complaint widely discussed today in Russian media. Adelina said: ''This medal is mine and I am not giving it back no matter what. I won my gold medal fair and square''.

She also said that in Japan where she is participating in a show, she receives a warm welcome and nobody seem to have any issues with her win. In her opinion only the Koreans are still discussing the matter (thats where she is wrong!)

Adelina should start talking more politically... Maybe that comes with age, but a more careful choice of words should be used. She could have said that she really gave it all in her performance and that the judges awarded her. She should say she welcomes any inquiries as it would help future confusions, like the one at sochi, from happening again.

Whenever she opens her mouth, it does not help her case against her many internet haters who see her as stuck-up. Obviously, she deserves none of the blame and none of the hate, but her words make her easier to target.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

http://www.sovsport.ru/sochi/texts/text-item/703851

Adelina gave a telephone interview to the 'Soviet Sport' following the news of filed complaint widely discussed today in Russian media. Adelina said: ''This medal is mine and I am not giving it back no matter what. I won my gold medal fair and square''.

She also said that in Japan where she is participating in a show, she receives a warm welcome and nobody seem to have any issues with her win. In her opinion only the Koreans are still discussing the matter (thats where she is wrong!)

Adelina, honey,you can keep it. Nobody's gonna strip your precious gold medal. So don't you ever feel scared or anything, you poor little soul.

 

[[email protected]]

Whenever she opens her mouth, it does not help her case against her many internet haters who see her as stuck-up. Obviously, she deserves none of the blame and none of the hate, but her words make her easier to target.

Her case is that her internet haters are concentrated in Korea. And she supported this case by saying this: "As for Japan, people are very warm, every time I go to the rink, every meeting with the fans is like a holiday. - And no one asks questions? - Not a single one. People here have no idea...."

So, it could be true that the issue still exists only in one specific country and among a limited number of goldenskate.com members.

The only breakthrough solution in terms of objectivity could be the introduction of a sort of "computer judges". In tennis "eagle eye" seems to work fine. But I guess we are still years before it might become a reality. In principle, it is not impossible: computer won over Kasparov in chess more that 10 years ago. But here lies the problem: as soon as it became clear that a computer can be better than a man the global interest to the chess started to wane. I have no idea who is currently the champion. So when it becomes possible and should the assessment be done by a computer it may kill the majic of figure skating.

 

[cuon_alpinus]

Her case is that her internet haters are concentrated in Korea. And she supported this case by saying this: "As for Japan, people are very warm, every time I go to the rink, every meeting with the fans is like a holiday. - And no one asks questions? - Not a single one. People here have no idea...."

So, it could be true that the issue still exists only in one specific country and among a limited number of goldenskate.com members.

I am sure there are more people all around the world doubting the result in Sochi. I would say Canada, some US media, France, Germany, Italy, Australia, Korea, Japan, England, China, and I am sure there are more. In terms of Adelina getting warm support in Japan, I think they just don't want Adelina to be sad and despaired, but they all know the truth. They are not stupid to bash other skaters who come to their country. To be honest, Japanese are glad that Adelina hindered Kim from getting 2 OGM. And The most popular on Japanese articles from mass media when Adelina won was "Adelina wasn't as good as mao zzang" or something like that. And Adelina even said that even some Russians are being cruel to her on twitter or instagram. And I am not saying those immature Koreans are good. They should get blamed for writing such a disrespectful comments. I agree. But Adelina too is going to far. Had she been just quite about the result, no one would blame her.