The Death of Figure Skating as Art | Page 9 | Golden Skate

The Death of Figure Skating as Art

I think this thread is really interesting and I am a bit surprise to see many "art is subjective" argument. Of course, art is subjective, but to deny any objectivity in art is almost denying any arguments.

I still believe that there are some aspect of art that could be objectively discussed. Otherwise, art school should not existed.

I think we would have to define what "art" means in terms of competitive figure skating and something for skaters to aim at.

Right now the sport is not using the same definitions that art school would use. Nor, probably, should they. They can learn from aesthetic theory as studied in art school, so I think it is worth injecting into discussion of figure skating. But not for the purposes of arguing that figure skating has failed at something it hasn't been actively trying to achieve.

We can talk about how the PCS criteria could be written better, how judges and coaches/choreographers could be better trained to understand principles of aesthetics so that skaters can be trained and programs can be planned to try to better meet art school definitions of art.

We could also talk about how requirements or optional rewards for technical skills could be planned in different ways to encourage more consideration of aesethetic impact in designing programs and training skaters.

But we should also consider what the purposes of a competitive short or long program should be, and how that might differ from the purposes of a skating performance in a strictly artistic non-competitive context.

Anyhow, I wonder if the pre-cop programs on average are that much more artistic than program under cop? There may be some really wonderful program, but there are so many boring program under 6.0 as well.

Well, that's the hole in the argument. There are a lot of boring programs under 6.0, which many wouldn't deem artistic. There are several programs today which would be considered more artistic than programs in the past.

Agreed.

I'm going to start a thread designed to elicit a small experiment in this direction. However, even so the sample size will be too small to reach firm conclusions that one judging system is inherently more supportive/demanding of artistry than another.

Maybe the problem with CoP is that it went straight into the difficulty deep end. Instead of gradual attempts to get skaters to do more challenging spins/footwork, they've added in requirements that make elements look laboured and not as aesthetic for the majority of skaters who can't achieve that fine balance between difficult and beautiful. [/quote]

In many cases -- perhaps with the exception of variety/complexity feature in step sequences, or the inclusion of axels, and certain kinds of spins in free skates -- the demands for difficulty are not official requirements. There's no rule that requires skaters to achieve level 2, 3, or 4 in steps and spins or to include their maximum possible jump content with as much as possible after the halfway point in the program.

De facto, of course, that's the way to earn more points in the Technical Elements Score. And the decisions of the technical panels are more clearcut, less subjective -- either the skater achieved the feature or rotated the jump or she did not, with a few gray areas in borderline cases -- than the judges' more qualitative opinionated scoring, so skaters soon learned to aim for higher base values with less attention to quality of execution or to program construction.

The rewards for quality and for well-choreographed programs are built in to the system as well. If competitive figure skating really wanted to promote itself more as art and less as sport, it could tweak the GOE and PCS values and train the judges to make those scores more determinant of final results and more clearly based on agreed-upon aesthetic principles.

As for transitions, well... again, that's the skater's prerogative how many to incorporate. I don't think transitions clutter a program, assuming the skater can maintain their flow across the ice while executing them. If anything it adds more visual interest than the skater just stroking around the whole time.

I've always preferred more complex programs to the simple and grand. E.g., I always got bored as soon as a pair started a death spiral that would be held in the same position for several seconds and felt the urge to leave the room for a fridge break. But that's a matter of personal preference. Really, in my mind the ideal would be variety including both simple and complex moves/combinations, executed with good quality, intentionality, and connection to the musical phrasing. And the rules as currently written do encourage judges to reward those qualities. But there are enough other written criteria as well that judges may not always make those the priority, in case some skaters excel in other areas.
 
This post is my explanation of the choices for the Comparative experiment thread. Go there for the experiment. I'm just hiding it here.

A number between 1 and 9:
Years
2006-2014 respectively
1994-2002 respectively
1980-1988 respectively (if I can find the videos)

M or L: men or ladies

E or O: even or odd placements

T or F: technical/short vs. free program

E, F, J, O, U, or W: Europeans, Four Continents (if applicable), Junior Worlds, Olympics (if applicable), US Nationals, Worlds

If the competition chosen didn't take place in the year(s) chosen, or if I can't find sufficient videos, I may have to ask for another choice
 
Tamara Moskvina

The figure skating develops, the elements become more complicated and performing them is more risky. But figure skating must develop like anything else.

How can you compare art? Each time and it's own heroes. It would be wrong praising ones and diminishing the others.
 
^^ Agreed. Alba. However, praise for one person/skater does not diminish another -- at least, it shouldn't.
 
Well, that's the hole in the argument. There are a lot of boring programs under 6.0, which many wouldn't deem artistic. There are several programs today which would be considered more artistic than programs in the past.

No that's not the hole in the argument. Of course you can take the best of this era and it's better than sub-par programs of 6.0 era. There's no point in that, though? Comparing the best vs the best is the useful comparison to make, as that shows what level was able to be achieved in each era.

Also, a lot of programs in CoP era are SO stultifying that it makes viewers completely check out. Many programs in 6.0 era can be described as too simplistic, but most people would rather watch simplistic skating where the skater at least appears to be moving somewhat naturally, rather than skating with non-stop tedious and ugly movement.

It's not about trying to "reclaim" an era, though, as I've said many times before (although understanding the past is of course important). It's about the entire sport as a whole reaching a more enlightened state and maintaining a high degree of relevance as something that humans care about. Even if the skating of the past 7 years was supposedly better than the skating of 10-20 years ago, I don't care. It's not good enough in this day and age to be something that people want to watch and engage in. It needs to be improved. Artistry needs to be more important, the ISU needs to improve the rules to allow further freedom and more correctly reward great skating and punish mistakes, coaches and choreographers need to put far more effort into creating/altering programs (in general there should be FAR more collaboration), and judges need to score all of this work with much more accuracy.
 
I don't where you're getting these notions that a lot of programs make viewers completely check out. Have you asked people? Or are you just making an assertion?

There are plenty of people who will say many of Mao's/Kim's/Chan's/Takahashi's programs over the past quadrennial have elevated the sport, technically and artistically.

I, for one, appreciate programs with harder jumps/footwork/spins/transitions, and more *skating*. Yes, of course I appreciate past programs for their simplicity, and their creativity, however I understand that the sport needs to challenge skaters if it is to move forward, as well as be structured where skaters can - at least technically - be compared fairly to one another (rather than in the past where judges would dole out tech scores of 5.8's with falls and mediocre spins just because the skater was a favourite, or use the artistic mark to mitigate a poor technical showing).

Perhaps creating simpler rules for footwork and spins would be of greater benefit. I personally don't think an ugly spin position is the be-all-end-all of a program or a spin hitting the music. I don't look at programs with the intent of finding something wrong with it. After all, it's a lot easier to appreciate art if you're focusing on the positive aspects, instead of going in with the intent of being as critical as possible.

Saying skating is "not good enough to be something people want to watch and engage in" is such a broad, sweeping, and unsubstantiated statement. You don't speak for most people. Tons of people watched figure skating at the Olympics. The very fact that you continue to watch the sport means that it is engaging enough for you, even if it's not ideal. A "more enlightened state" is simply your own vision of what skating should be and opinion, which you're of course entitled to. But it's rather pretentious to make it seem like all of skating is dwelling in this abyss of mediocrity which the rest of us have relented to, and you have all the answers. I do agree with you about the ISU changing rules to allow for further freedom, and choreographers need to optimize programs better, but I'm certainly not of the impression that the sport has died as an art (although I assume that was meant to be hyperbolic).

IMO, if skating is to maintain a high degree of relevance as a sport, the system is working (although still has improvements to make). The onus is on skaters and choreographers to determine what works aesthetically. A skater doing an ugly position or movement isn't the system's fault... it's themselves doing it and not fixing it or finding an alternative. And if it looks ugly they should have the sense to realise it will adversely affect their score/GOE, which negates the 0.3 points for the level.
 
The idea that subjectivity in art leads to the downfall of the "art institution" (i.e. schools, teachers, curators, critics, "the art world") is complete nonsense to me, my fine arts program and my art history teachers taught me about the subjectivity in art. What objectivity is there? Aesthetics? That's subjective. Emotional impact? Subjective. Cultural/societal/historical impact? Well you'll have to wait a few years for anything to be considered art then, and that would mean art can only retroactively be classified. The only things that are really objective would be history, and perhaps the design elements/principles, but again what you do with that knowledge is up to you. The art institution will always exist as long as 1) there are people curious about learning about art history and theory 2) there are people who want to be exposed to different methods of making art (print making, painting, gouache, sculpture, etc) and 3) there are people who want to make a living pursuing art, therefore ensuring there will always be a supply/demand of artists. Subjectivity is why art critics can critique art from their unique and scholarly perspectives (and why the public can disagree) or why curators can arrange a gallery in accordance with whatever theme/aesthetic they want (and why the attendees can go and think that the show is crap).

The point about subjectivity isn't that everyone is right, it's that everyone has their opinion. It's simply easier, on a figure skating board, to say "agree to disagree" then discuss at length your personal opinions, but I don't think anybody is really stopping anybody else from doing so. It's just that unlike art critics, nobody here gets paid for writing their opinions, and oftentimes posters just end up using ad hominem attacks on each other lol.

I'll just say this, as a young person who got into figure skating within the past decade, I prefer COP programs (aesthetically, emotionally, "artisically", whatever) over programs from 20 years ago. Am I wrong? Am I right?
 
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I don't where you're getting these notions that a lot of programs make viewers completely check out. Have you asked people?

Of course I have. It's the same story with literally everyone else I know who has been involved with skating too. Almost every person they know who casually admired and supported the sport no longer cares to watch.

Saying skating is "not good enough to be something people want to watch and engage in" is such a broad, sweeping, and unsubstantiated statement. You don't speak for most people. Tons of people watched figure skating at the Olympics.

Yes I do speak for most people, actually. Again, the receipts don't lie.

Tons of people may have watched figure skating at the Olympics, but only at the Olympics, and the numbers were way down from what they've been in the past. The now-declined viewership of figure skating at the Olympics isn't translating into anything else like it used to. The sport has become a once-every-4-years diversion. It deserves more than that.

The idea that subjectivity in art leads to the downfall of the "art institution" is complete nonsense to me. What objectivity is there? Aesthetics? That's subjective. Emotional impact? Subjective.

I don't think anyone here is saying subjectively leads to the downfall of art.

In terms of the artists themselves, there is a huge disconnect between understanding their craft and the history of it, as well as the amount of effort they put into it - which often creates an inferior product.
 
Of course I have. It's the same story with literally everyone else I know who has been involved with skating too. Almost every person they know who casually admired and supported the sport no longer cares to watch.

I think this is much more attributable to the US not having a great woman skater right now. The sport is popular in Japan, South Korea, and Russia. If the US again gets a champion like Michelle the sport will gain popularity, regardless of the scoring system she is skating under.
 
I don't think anyone here is saying subjectively leads to the downfall of art.

In terms of the artists themselves, there is a huge disconnect between understanding their craft and the history of it, as well as the amount of effort they put into it - which often creates an inferior product.
Uh, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what people have said in this thread (not exactly to the downfall of art, but to downfall of the institution of art).

Anyway, I don't think figure skating needs more artistry to attract numbers, it needs cultural relevance in NA. It's obviously still very popular in Japan where their lineage of amazing skaters have contributed to the creation of a skating dynasty so now even the layman knows the names Mao Asada or Yuzuru Hanyu. It's not that the Japanese have lower standards for artistry than Europeans/North Americans, it's simply that FS is relevant to their interests because of their star athletes. And funnily enough, with figure skating as one of the most popular sports in that country, it churns out so many young skaters that eventually, the ones that get noticed are ones that have both decent (sometimes brilliant!) artistry and solid technique. Skaters producing good results -> more popularity among the general public -> more interest in young skaters -> higher artistic/technical standards -> more skaters producing good results. It's a win-win-win-win situation (even though their ladies are in a bit of a lull right now).

In North America, skating doesn't need more artistry to get noticed, it needs star athletes and above all else, more coverage.
 
I think we are whistling past the graveyard when we say that figure skating in the U.S. will rise from the dead when a Kwan-like savior appears.
 
Of course I have. It's the same story with literally everyone else I know who has been involved with skating too. Almost every person they know who casually admired and supported the sport no longer cares to watch.

Yes I do speak for most people, actually. Again, the receipts don't lie.

I wanna see the receipts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdyaLWMt6qA

Literally everyone else you know who's been involved with skating... let me guess, your friends at the ISU seminars?
 
If Gracie Gold were to win Worlds for the next 3 years in a row, it wouldn't make ice skating very popular again. It would simply make her more famous. People like to fantasize themselves as being famous. They don't really care why someone is famous and successful, they simply like to feed off that aura. They will follow her on Twitter and perhaps buy a useful product that she recommends, and figure skating would benefit in a minor way from the splash effect, but largely people would not suddenly be following the sport again. They would not be talking about how much a performance moved and entertained them.

This whole mantra of "[insert country name here] just needs a champion for ice skating to become popular again" is ridiculously flawed in the first place because there can only be a very limited number of World/Olympic Champions!! If Nationalistic Championing is the main reason why people like a sport, then that means it would only ever be popular in a few countries at a time.
 
Yes, in Japan is popular figure skating because it is their culture, they appreciate more the art, the beauty, though figure skating can´t be called exactly art, it is even beautiful and people in Russia and Japan appreciate a little more all this kind of things.
 
Just from my observations as a fan of figure skating in Japan, here are some possible reasons why the sport is growing in popularity.
Is it correlation or causation, I don't know.

1. Champions or possible champions
Japan has several top level skaters who can be counted on (we hope) to take top placement in international competitions.
Not just one skater, but quite a few. Also, some very promising junior and novice skaters who the media also focus on.
It is not a cult of the individual.

2. Charismatic (for Japan) skaters
Skaters like Daiskue, Mao, Shizuka, Hanyu, Nobu, Akiko and even Machida have interesting personalities and charisma.
--Yes, they may seem very vanilla to you, but in Japan, they are seen as quite exotic. They don't follow the same rules as other Japanese in many ways.
And they are seen as good people. They are very careful of their image.

3. Media Coverage
The media covers all aspects of singles skating. Not just fluff pieces on the skaters but really in-depth explanations about the rules of figure skating.
After the 2014 World championships, a popular channel replayed Tatsuki and Hanyu's SP and LP with commentary about the GOE's of each of their jumps.
Before and after Sochi, there were many short pieces about the jump layout of Patrick Chan, Hanyu, Daisuke etc, and how that could impact the scores.

The Artistic elements are pretty much left to the individual to decide upon. They mention that someone like Daisuke has great expression and moves on ice like a dancer and leave it at that.
People know about the rules of figure skating and therefore can enjoy watching it more.

What about America and other countries where figure skating is in a decline? Can it be 'just' a lack of artistry that is causing this?
 
A dominant US ladies champion is only a means to an end. If Gracie Gold wins 3 world championships, I would hope that US figure skating would get more TV coverage and THAT is what is needed. Her winning would not mean everyone becomes a fan of her, but that ideally, figure skating gets a lot more public attention through the media so that more people can become interested in the sport as a whole because there is actually decent exposure to it. Someone needs to start the snowball for the snowball effect to happen.
 
Given that we have now reached one of the lowest points ever for skating-as-art, I thought it would be interesting to question what IS art to you in figure skating? A recent a video about "Why is Modern Art so Bad?" (it includes a figure skating reference) sparked my drive for talking about this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNI07egoefc

"If we are to be intellectually honest, we all know of situations where professional expertise is acknowledged and depended upon. Take figure skating in the Olympics, where artistic excellence is judged by experts in the field. Surely we would flinch at the contestant who indiscriminately threw himself across the ice and demanded that his routine be accepted as being as worthy of value as that of the most disciplined skater. Not only has the quality of art diminished, but the subject matter has gone from the transcendent to the trashy."

I believe Art in figure skating first begins with creating movement that has purpose. Dance (skating) serves to convey emotions and ideas that the human self is not able to tangibly express is any other way. If you tell somebody "I am sad" or "I am happy", they will have some kind of broad understanding about your present state but they themselves will not feel what you are feeling. Through art we open gateways that allow people to understand each other and our existences more fully, or to heighten our day-to-day existences into something greater. Dance movement is like a foreign language that is partially understandable by everyone. When we see people move their bodies in a specific way, something is conveyed to us. As the language of skating movement is studied more and more, we begin to understand a greater complexity and range of meanings.

The next consideration is of course the music. Every piece, every section of music in existence has a dance (skating) movement that "works" with the music. It's not any one particular movement but rather a tapestry of different possibilities out there that can be used with the music. Utilizing this specific language of movement is both intrinsic and learned. Everything has an unknown "recipe"; interpretation of music is about creating a "recipe" of movement which serves to illuminate and enrich the music. The quest is to discover the best possible transference of sound into image, to discover the hidden combination of choreography that magically unlocks the music like a rosetta stone. There is also the possibility of skating inverse to the music, which would be something like a comedic performance to Swan Lake.

The final element of Art in figure skating is the pure expression of the skater themselves. Their energy, their timing, their look, and the way they interact with the audience. We are each a unique instrument and there are different nuances and levels of understanding and conviction every individual brings to a performance. This will almost always vary at least a tiny bit between performances for each individual skater as well.

----

So, why is skating in such a bad place right now? It's because the above qualities are largely missing from performances. They are missing because they are not rewarded and not understood well enough by the institution of competitive figure skating to being with. Doing a combination of a bunch of difficult rockers and counters and loops on the ice often has little/nothing to do with creating an idea or conveying music. Never doing more than two crossovers in a row may be technically difficult but it has little to do with trying to discover the secrets of the music and how to best present it. Since skaters are so busy doing all of those movements, in addition to being forced to do too many jumps and too many unnecessary spin positions, it's hard to find enough time to express oneself. Taking "breaks" on the ice to actually emote is virtually a crime anymore, even if it is brilliant. Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation are supposed to still be rewarded, but they actually aren't.

Since the art is no longer being rewarded, competitors focus mainly on the technical. Since they focus mainly on the technical, people care less and less about the sport. All activities in life are engaged in because they are entertaining or impressive or educational or stimulating. Skating performances currently do not often invoke much imagination or emotional involvement or make people feel like they are being transported. What is left now is mainly a surface-level enjoyment of watching people do difficult moves and that novelty for the sake of itself wears off quickly.

Choreographing a skating program used to be a journey. Sarah Kawahara described her process exactly as that - it is something which must be continually worked on and discovered. Choreography has now become more like a list, with a brief choreographic passage at the start of the program before a very predictable sequence of moves will occur.

As is advocated in the video above for "Why is Modern Art so Bad?", we must work to improve artistic standards. The sport needs it. When I have more time I will post analysis of specific skating performances in the current era, how they fail, and how they could be improved (even within the constraints of the current scoring system). I invite everyone to talk about what they want to see more of in skating.

OP, I agree with you. Great post. A lot of things are dying as an art though. It's a general trend, methinks. U_U

A lot of it, as you said, has to do with patriotism and nationalism suddenly having more value than artistic expression and hard work.
 
The idea that subjectivity in art leads to the downfall of the "art institution" (i.e. schools, teachers, curators, critics, "the art world") is complete nonsense to me, my fine arts program and my art history teachers taught me about the subjectivity in art. What objectivity is there? Aesthetics? That's subjective. Emotional impact? Subjective. Cultural/societal/historical impact? Well you'll have to wait a few years for anything to be considered art then, and that would mean art can only retroactively be classified. The only things that are really objective would be history, and perhaps the design elements/principles, but again what you do with that knowledge is up to you. The art institution will always exist as long as 1) there are people curious about learning about art history and theory 2) there are people who want to be exposed to different methods of making art (print making, painting, gouache, sculpture, etc) and 3) there are people who want to make a living pursuing art, therefore ensuring there will always be a supply/demand of artists. Subjectivity is why art critics can critique art from their unique and scholarly perspectives (and why the public can disagree) or why curators can arrange a gallery in accordance with whatever theme/aesthetic they want (and why the attendees can go and think that the show is crap).

The point about subjectivity isn't that everyone is right, it's that everyone has their opinion. It's simply easier, on a figure skating board, to say "agree to disagree" then discuss at length your personal opinions, but I don't think anybody is really stopping anybody else from doing so. It's just that unlike art critics, nobody here gets paid for writing their opinions, and oftentimes posters just end up using ad hominem attacks on each other lol.

I'll just say this, as a young person who got into figure skating within the past decade, I prefer COP programs (aesthetically, emotionally, "artisically", whatever) over programs from 20 years ago. Am I wrong? Am I right?

Wow! I am so sorry if my post (as I wrote about art institution) offense you or anyone, I am not intend to ad hominem anyone. I certainly do think that I have to be super careful in what I posted and word selection from now on .


My point is there are theories and perspectives that can be used to discussed art and from that there can be arguments rather than saying that this kind of thread should not exist in the first place as art is subjective. Although , of course, the propose of argument can be a bit more creative than to prove that art in skating is death.
 
Wow! I am so sorry if my post (as I wrote about art institution) offense you or anyone, I am not intend to ad hominem anyone. I certainly do think that I have to be super careful in what I posted and word selection from now on .


My point is there are theories and perspectives that can be used to discussed art and from that there can be arguments rather than saying that this kind of thread should not exist in the first place as art is subjective. Although , of course, the propose of argument can be a bit more creative than to prove that art in skating is death.

Actually, I like this thread a lot because of the differing opinions put out here. It's great reading. If we agreed about 'the death of art in figure skating' the thread would be boring and short.
:popcorn:
 
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