Skipping Europeans VS 4CC

[ozmodiar]

Actually, hosting 4CC in alternating hemispheres every year was the original idea. But after a few years, North American cities realized that this competition is expensive to hold and doesn't make any money and so currently nobody wants to host it at all.

 

[Giselle]

Actually, hosting 4CC in alternating hemispheres every year was the original idea. But after a few years, North American cities realized that this competition is expensive to hold and doesn't make any money and so currently nobody wants to host it at all.

Thanks, I didn't know that they had planned to alternate!

So I found the list of 4CC locations (North American cities in bold):

1999 Canada Halifax
2000 Japan Osaka
2001 United States Salt Lake City
2002 South Korea Jeonju
2003 China Beijing
2004 Canada Hamilton
2005 South Korea Gangneung
2006 United States Colorado Springs
2007 United States Colorado Springs
2008 South Korea Goyang
2009 Canada Vancouver
2010 South Korea Jeonju
2011 Chinese Taipei Taipei
2012 United States Colorado Springs
2013 Japan Osaka
2014 Chinese Taipei Taipei
2015 South Korea Seoul
2016 Chinese Taipei Taipei
2017 South Korea Gangneung

So Canada hosted it 3 times, the last time in 2009 in Vancouver the year before the Olympics. The US 4 times, they seem to just put it in Colorado Springs by default. Interesting that Japan has hosted 4CC only 2 times (in Osaka). They often do get Worlds and now WTT so it may not be their priority I guess.

South Korea and Taipei have hosted it a lot for 2 countries who are not "dominant" in figure skating.

 

[gravy]

South Korea and Taipei have hosted it a lot for 2 countries who are not "dominant" in figure skating.

I suspect that South Korea hosted it various times to build up their resume for an Olympic bid that failed twice before getting the nod for 2018.

Taipei is a bit random, I think.

 

[Kittosuni]

For US and Japan, the world's selection process basically stops at nationals. So any competition between that is less important unlike other countries especially in europe, where in euro champs is part of their selection process so skaters want/need to show up to prove their cases to their feds.

 

[machin]

After World War II, the skating establishment in Europe was in a shambles. The European championship was resumed in 1946, but the field was thin. Barbara Ann Scott (Canada) won and Gretchen Merrill (USA) was second. Scott won again in 1948 along with Dick Button in men's. I don't know if the European-dominated ISU welcomed the North Americans in order to bolster the quality of the competition, or if they resented the carpetbaggers for taking advantage of the situation. In any case, sentiment quickly turned towards the latter, especially since there was already a North American Championship that only Canadians and U,S. skaters were eligible for.

It is because to enter European Championships you only had to be member of a european association or ISU affiliated club.
Maribel went to UK to improve her skating, training there for one year, and entered the championship.

 

[TrishaG]

In a word: yes.

Christmas isn't really celebrated in Japan. And Russia celebrates Christmas in January (they still use the Julian Calendar for their religious festivals). So, these countries can get away with holding their Nationals during what we consider as Charistmas Week.

America and Canada have to wait until after the Christmas / New Year holiday period is over. But, what I can't understand is why they can't hold them early in January, as soon as the holidays are over.

CaroLiza_fan

I'm pretty sure that the reason relates to TV rights, at least for US Nationals. I think there's a timing issue related to other televised sports. College football bowl games, including the national championship play-off, finish the week before US Nationals for figure skating, but they start in mid-December. So there's tons of college football games going on during the Christmas and New Year holidays and in early January after the holidays. There's no way that figure skating nationals will get televised during bowl season, so it has to wait until that's over. The NFL (pro football) schedule may also play a part.

 

[yuzushenko]

what's the point of an event that includes 4/5ths of the competitors for worlds, a month before worlds? when you win europeans, you can point to the winner and say "they are the best russian." that's huge. but the winner of 4CC? "they're the best in...well the best at this competition because this competition rarely predicts worlds rankings."
if there were a north american championship you can point at the winner and say they're the best north american skater. that's a huge statement for ice dance and pairs.
if there were an asian championships, you can point at the winner and say that they're the best in asia (after yuzuru hanyu). that's huge for guys like shoma uno, boyang jin, and denis ten.

yet this giant vague cover of 4 continents is just meaningless. it's like another grand prix. meaning that whoever happened to skate their best, won. unlike europeans where it feels like the winner is the best in europe/russia. it has more impact if it is more specified in location.



that being said ive only been a skating fan for 2 years and i don't think europeans is more prestigious. i think skaters treat it that way when there's that russian rivalry and you see skaters almost tear up and get mad for losing (radionova). but you don't see that in 4CC cuz everyone there except satoko is a freaking head case so whoever the winners are were just lucky to have been the best that day. you just learn to accept whatever happens because you don't expect everybody to be at their very best because there's nothing to prove. there's no strong rivalry that people want to compare.

comparing russians with russians is good. yet comparing the best lady from the US with the best lady from japan? it just doesn't matter to us. now if there were more rivalries like having ashley vs gracie vs polina, or patrick vs yuzuru vs javi, or mao vs yuna or tessa/scott vs meryl/davis, it might be more exciting. but those huge match ups happen a month later at worlds anyways so whatever happens at 4CC doesn't mean anything if the results are switched at worlds. what's the point if the prestige of winning is cut off once the true match up, worlds, happens a month later? this is why i dont even care about europeans (though ive only been a fan for 2 years, don't know why it's so popular), because it's like a second russian nationals with javi winning a gold medal to make him a more legit competitor for yuzu and patrick. i mean good for him but there is no more plushenko or yagudin or stephen lambiel to give the men any competition. the ladies is a 2nd russian nationals, or a true russian nationals w/o politics. same for ice dance and pairs. there aren't other countries that bring a challenge to russians at europeans.

 

[RABID]

what's the point of an event that includes 4/5ths of the competitors for worlds, a month before worlds? when you win europeans, you can point to the winner and say "they are the best russian." that's huge. but the winner of 4CC? "they're the best in...well the best at this competition because this competition rarely predicts worlds rankings."
if there were a north american championship you can point at the winner and say they're the best north american skater. that's a huge statement for ice dance and pairs.
if there were an asian championships, you can point at the winner and say that they're the best in asia (after yuzuru hanyu). that's huge for guys like shoma uno, boyang jin, and denis ten.

yet this giant vague cover of 4 continents is just meaningless. it's like another grand prix. meaning that whoever happened to skate their best, won. unlike europeans where it feels like the winner is the best in europe/russia. it has more impact if it is more specified in location.



that being said ive only been a skating fan for 2 years and i don't think europeans is more prestigious. i think skaters treat it that way when there's that russian rivalry and you see skaters almost tear up and get mad for losing (radionova). but you don't see that in 4CC cuz everyone there except satoko is a freaking head case so whoever the winners are were just lucky to have been the best that day. you just learn to accept whatever happens because you don't expect everybody to be at their very best because there's nothing to prove. there's no strong rivalry that people want to compare.

comparing russians with russians is good. yet comparing the best lady from the US with the best lady from japan? it just doesn't matter to us. now if there were more rivalries like having ashley vs gracie vs polina, or patrick vs yuzuru vs javi, or mao vs yuna or tessa/scott vs meryl/davis, it might be more exciting. but those huge match ups happen a month later at worlds anyways so whatever happens at 4CC doesn't mean anything if the results are switched at worlds. what's the point if the prestige of winning is cut off once the true match up, worlds, happens a month later? this is why i dont even care about europeans (though ive only been a fan for 2 years, don't know why it's so popular), because it's like a second russian nationals with javi winning a gold medal to make him a more legit competitor for yuzu and patrick. i mean good for him but there is no more plushenko or yagudin or stephen lambiel to give the men any competition. the ladies is a 2nd russian nationals, or a true russian nationals w/o politics. same for ice dance and pairs. there aren't other countries that bring a challenge to russians at europeans.

It was only a few seasons ago when European skaters were something of an irrelevancy outside of one or two skaters. And it was only a few seasons ago that the 4CC "could" host the best skaters in the world. So what goes for 4CC also goes for Europeans. If there is no reason for one than there is no reason for the other.

 

[tzazu]

comparing russians with russians is good. yet comparing the best lady from the US with the best lady from japan? it just doesn't matter to us. now if there were more rivalries like having ashley vs gracie vs polina, or patrick vs yuzuru vs javi, or mao vs yuna or tessa/scott vs meryl/davis, it might be more exciting. but those huge match ups happen a month later at worlds anyways so whatever happens at 4CC doesn't mean anything if the results are switched at worlds. what's the point if the prestige of winning is cut off once the true match up, worlds, happens a month later? this is why i dont even care about europeans (though ive only been a fan for 2 years, don't know why it's so popular), because it's like a second russian nationals with javi winning a gold medal to make him a more legit competitor for yuzu and patrick. i mean good for him but there is no more plushenko or yagudin or stephen lambiel to give the men any competition. the ladies is a 2nd russian nationals, or a true russian nationals w/o politics. same for ice dance and pairs. there aren't other countries that bring a challenge to russians at europeans.

Really? Or maybe you don't follow them?

 

[yuzushenko]

what other countries are there in europe that provide big challenge to russians? besides the french and italian ice dance team. there are none for pairs.

 

[Rissa]

Really? Or maybe you don't follow them?

Yes, especially that Dance was won by the French followed by the Italians...

A good outing at Euros and 4CCs can give a skater momentum to be used at Worlds. Javi's 4-time European Champion title certainly helped him raise those PCS enogh to equal Patrick and Yuzu's and played a part at Javi winning the last Worlds. Shibs' win at 4CCs makes them candidates for Worlds podium, even for Gold. The judges need to be convinced skaters are up to the mark beforehand and make them free-er with giving out GOEs and PCS (or waay to free with them depending how you see the phenomenon). What momentum does Denis Ten have at the moment? Only that which is left from his old successes, nothing from this season, a podium place at 4CCs would have been invaluable for his Worlds prospects. Patrick's joined the 200 FS club and won 4CCs which I'm betting did wonders for his Worlds prospects, he's back in the game for gold when a few weeks ago a podium for him was a question mark.

Papadakis/Cizeron? After a half season long absence, a gold at Euros and voila, they're back as World champions favorites. Meanwhile, Weaver/Poje, who were the favorites after GPF, before P/C and Shibs showed what they can do and before their mini collapse at 4CCs dropped in the predictions dramatically. Suddenly everybody knows they're beatable and that includes the judges. Without Euros and 4CCs they'd still be heavy favorites and judges tend to treat heavy favorites better than others.

Both competitions are game changers and very important in establishing skaters.

 

[Kinga]

what other countries are there in europe that provide big challenge to russians? besides the french and italian ice dance team. there are none for pairs.

Savchenko/Massot to name one.

 

[Mathman]

what other countries are there in europe that provide big challenge to russians? besides the french and italian ice dance team. there are none for pairs.

I think we should take a longer view. The European Figure Skating Championships have been contested for more than a century. In the last few years Russian skaters are dominating.

But over the the last half century, looking at ladies' alone, European Champions have been crowned from Austria, Norway, Great Britain, West Germany, East Germany, Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Switzerland, France, Hungry and Finland.

I agree that if you win Four Continents it is not axactly clear just what you are the champion of. As you say, it just means that you skated the best at this competition and won.

But the same can be said of any skating contest, including the Olympics. :yes:

 

[yuzushenko]

I think we should take a longer view. The European Figure Skating Championships have been contested for more than a century. In the last few years Russian skaters are dominating.

But over the the last half century, looking at ladies' alone, European Champions have been crowned from Austria, Norway, Great Britain, West Germany, East Germany, Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Switzerland, France, Hungry and Finland.

I agree that if you win Four Continents it is not axactly clear just what you are the champion of. As you say, it just means that you skated the best at this competition and won.

But the same can be said of any skating contest, including the Olympics. :yes:

hm it seems like there's more pride then..among europeans... again because it's a smaller location. sort of like soccer clubs...

i think perhaps an asian championships might be more competitive among its skaters. it sort of brings nationalistic drama more to the forefront (which might be what leads the strong competition in euros where these european countries have naturally sort of competed against each other in many other things like sports). 4CC feels so friendly and less intense perhaps cuz they just see themselves as skaters competing at another grand prix-like event. but put a more personal title and it becomes a battle for a title of recognition and pride, like nationals. no one necessarily feels some sense of nationalistic pride to be a part of four continents. that just sounds foolish. a single continent? there is a more personal connection there.

i mean do we as fans ever think of ourselves as proud members of these 4 specific continents? not really. plus we'd be leaving out like 3 other continents so why would we ever think that?

 

[Mathman]

^ Well, Patrick Chan and Satoko Miyahara can proudly claim to be the champions of Asia, the Americas, Oceana and Africa.

 

[Perdita]

It just occured to me now that using WR instead of WS to determine the starting groups at the World will be a good incentive to make top skaters compete at 4CC... I suppose skaters do prefer to skate in a later group, do they? (And I was thinking it's a bit unfair to use WS since those who had a year off will be ranked low even when they did well this season)

Well, looking at Mirai winning silver, I'm rather happy with more skaters getting chances to compete at ISU championships though. But I just thought it would be a good idea