Caroline Zhang's breathtaking video

antmanb said:

You see that's what i wish someone would have done with Cohen...she looks pretty fiesty and some of her glares could make Barbara Fusar Poli drop dead I wish someone at some point would have said hey Sasha harness all that energy that you've got (like she exhibited in running skaters down in warm up), skate to a darker stronger piece of music and go out and kick some ***

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I always thought the perfect exhibition number for Cohen would have been 'Murder on the Dance Floor' with extras on the ice who she could bump off. especially since that song was a hit (in Europe, I don't know about the US) more or less as she was in her LMT (Li'l Miss Thang) phase.

Mafke said:

I always thought the perfect exhibition number for Cohen would have been 'Murder on the Dance Floor' with extras on the ice who she could bump off. especially since that song was a hit (in Europe, I don't know about the US) more or less as she was in her LMT (Li'l Miss Thang) phase.

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That would have been perfect!

Ant

antmanb said:

I'm not sure that the "Buzz" is any different to the "Hype" though. People claiming she'll be the 2010 Olympic champion...that to me is hype, call it buzz, call it fuzz, its hype...4 years is a long time and for a thirteen year old it means being 17...that's a hell of a lot of puberty and skating on the slippery ice. She has the potential to win it all, but so did/does Rohene Ward, Naomi Nari Nam, Deana Stellato.Ant

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From the time I grew up, hype always meant a Press Agent is feeding information into the media to keep the public aware of the star, or movie, or play, or product he is promoting. That's his job, and it's called hype, and he gets paid for doing just that.

Buzz, a comparatively new noun comes from a snoopy reporter overhearing what others are saying about a star, or a movie, or play or product because it seems to be of interest. Sometimes, buzz is picked up by a Press Agent and used for promoting his paying client.

In the last analysis, for me, I am secure in my tastes to ignore any hype or buzz by a Press Agent or by a fan of skater. Some posters here seem to think public opinion is hype. I don't.

Joe

Joesitz said:

From the time I grew up, hype always meant a Press Agent is feeding information into the media to keep the public aware of the star, or movie, or play, or product he is promoting. That's his job, and it's called hype, and he gets paid for doing just that.

Buzz, a comparatively new noun comes from a snoopy reporter overhearing what others are saying about a star, or a movie, or play or product because it seems to be of interest. Sometimes, buzz is picked up by a Press Agent and used for promoting his paying client.

In the last analysis, for me, I am secure in my tastes to ignore any hype or buzz by a Press Agent or by a fan of skater. Some posters here seem to think public opinion is hype. I don't.

Joe

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i'm happy enough liking what i like and ignoring hype too.

I Guess the question i was asking is usingyour definitions of Hype and Buzz, aren't both potentially detrimental to the skater if the skater doesn't measure up?

I'm happy enough enjoying Zhang's skating at the moment and i'mallowing myself to get excited by her strong skating skills and imagining that if she makes it thruogh the next few seasons without injury and without major puberty problems, she could be big.

Some people are already picking her for national and world and even Olympic champion come 2010. since this is all "buzz" at the moment - is it any less detrimental than hype if Zhang achieves none of those things?

Ant

dancindiva03 said:

But it would help if she would at least connect, just a little, to her music instead of just going from one show-off flexibility move to another. She does remind me a lot of Cohen, stringing together a lot of "signature" moves with little to no regard as to how they actually fit into a program. Some of the blame should go to the coach/choreographer, but I'm also thinking that she has input as to what elements go into her programs and so far, all her programs look the same.

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We have watched Zhang skate for years here in Southern CA, probably since she was a prepreliminary skater doing the old Southern CA Interclub events, etc. Her flexibility is impressive. Always has been.

But, I think it was Iloveaxel who mentioned Caroline's underlying "rebelliousness" despite the fragile nature she likes to demonstrate in her programs on the ice. That is an accurate description of her...very feisty, indeed!

I would like to see some of that personality come out through her skating. I think her coaches/choreographer have taken her abilities as a skater and showcased them in her programs in a terrific way, but I also feel that she is very cool emotionally on the ice...again, very choreographed. She doesn't really relate to the music. She skates with the music, rather. And because we have known her for years and have seen her skate to the same types of music over the years, it shows us that she is well coached and takes instruction well, but has yet to make that leap to the "artist" level. She LOVES the slow, pretty ballerina type music with lots of emotional swells....what spectator wouldn't get caught up to that type of music when you see 180 degree spirals go down the ice.

I would like to see Zhang go beyond this type of music and pick something classical perhaps, but with changes in tempo and dynamics so that we can see some of her personality come through in her skating. I think of someone like Kimmie Meissner who has not taken the "safe" route in the last couple of years in terms of music selection, and along with her choroegraphers, Lori N. and Nicolai M. have chosen music that is more difficult to relate to on an emotional level and there in lies the challenge...to raise yourself as an athlete and artist to a level that challenges you. The choices may not always be appreciated by the general audience, but they do allow constant evolution of the skater.

And, IMO, we just haven't really seen that in Caroline yet. Her skating skills have improved over the last two years with her jumps now rotated (though not the best technique with some of the jumps), though still too many crossovers (where are the transitions) and the spins, spirals fabulous as always. But, she needs to learn to connect to the audience. Maybe acting classes? Bring some of that personality to the ice. Zhang is one "cool cookie"...lets give her time to get through Nationals this year, and move up to Sr ladies before we get too caught up in the hype.

antmanb said:

i'm happy enough liking what i like and ignoring hype too.

I Guess the question i was asking is usingyour definitions of Hype and Buzz, aren't both potentially detrimental to the skater if the skater doesn't measure up?

I'm happy enough enjoying Zhang's skating at the moment and i'mallowing myself to get excited by her strong skating skills and imagining that if she makes it thruogh the next few seasons without injury and without major puberty problems, she could be big.

Some people are already picking her for national and world and even Olympic champion come 2010. since this is all "buzz" at the moment - is it any less detrimental than hype if Zhang achieves none of those things? Ant

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Depends on who is reading these posts and whether they influence the judges. These two unknown factors are not quantifiable.

As for giving opinions I have to believe that is what a forum is all about. It's like Letters to the Editor in newspapers. It provokes discussion and I find nothing wrong with opinions. However, it's just opinions.

As to calling those opinions hype, I'm not sure how to read that. Seems to me that some posters think 'hype' is a dirty word. It's not. it's a technique used by Press Agents.

However, as to hurting their careers, it depends on who finds these opinions of value and is that person powerful, and does he care what someone said on a figure skating forum? Maybe

Joe

Nigel, I think you have to allow Caroline to grow into her music. As a youngster, she is concentrating on technique and getting the choreography right, and she is not paying that much attention to the music. But she is still very young, and that is to be expected. You can't expect her to have mature musical sensibilities yet. That should develop with time.

Joesitz said:

Depends on who is reading these posts and whether they influence the judges. These two unknown factors are not quantifiable.

As for giving opinions I have to believe that is what a forum is all about. It's like Letters to the Editor in newspapers. It provokes discussion and I find nothing wrong with opinions. However, it's just opinions.

As to calling those opinions hype, I'm not sure how to read that. Seems to me that some posters think 'hype' is a dirty word. It's not. it's a technique used by Press Agents.

However, as to hurting their careers, it depends on who finds these opinions of value and is that person powerful, and does he care what someone said on a figure skating forum? Maybe

Joe

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I don't see anyone using the term "dirty word" except for you Joe!

What is on my mind is the fact that Cohen seems doesn't seem to have had any of her achievements acknowledged as such by many people because of the hype that surrounded her. As a direct result of all that hype Cohen is viewed by many as the perennial silver medalist never quite good enough to get the gold.

I wonder if Zhang is doomed to a similar fate - being talked abuot on intrnet forums, believe it or not, does make it to the mainstream media. Inner circle family and friends of skaters go on news groups and boards because of their niterest in skating. Skating people around Zhang might be constantly saying how good she is...does this heap pressure onto the young skater and might it break her? If she comes through ni senior and wins the titles then all will be good but does this "hype" or "buzz" as you seem to prefer to call it have any detrimental affect on the skater? With Cohen it would apear it did. With Zhang? I guess we will see but declarations of Olympic champion already before she;s even had to skate a full length senior LP seems like hype.

Ant

Red Dog said:

I'm not trying to bash your point of view or skaters that are like Cohen. And I agree in general- different people like different things so they're going to disagree on who is the most artistic, etc. I happen to think Sasha is NOT original, but you do. Nothing wrong with that. (And for that matter, I can't say I've truly seen an *ORIGINAL* skater in terms of the word recently.)

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I'm with RD here...I can't think of an original skater, either. It seems to me, the original ones tend to be the ones who come from Swiss and have amazing spin positions and speed to oogle over. Other than that???

Since 2000, the elements that Sasha has in each program have been very predictable. You can count on a fan spiral, charlotte, skid, OE abrasque spiral, IB, sculling move and the I-spin, which more often than not is used as an ending. The only new thing I've noticed is she now includes the Y-spiral to fan, instead of fan, skid, Y-spiral. Don't get me wrong-what makes Sasha good is the high quality positions on all her elements. She should include them in her programs. She is very TA-DA! with them, and it shows in her programs. She tends to skate to classical pieces, and have very similar expressions, movements and moods in each program. Like-how was she any different presenting Nutcracker, Swan Lake and R&J? Even if she didn't cut/paste the programs, they felt the same to me.

I think the difference between Caroline and Sasha is Caroline is very soft and subtle using her flexibility to highlight her programs, while Sasha's flexibility is more an exclaimation mark. It's a matter of which you prefer to see.

The internet buzz doesn't appear to have hurt Zhang. There was plenty of it after each of her JGP events, then her JGPF was just as good as the preliminary events. I guess we'll have to see what happens at Nationals and beyond.

Maybe she isn't allowed to get on the internet and read what people are saying. I hope that is true, considering some of the horrible things the haterz are saying about her on this board.

Just wait until the mainstream press gets a chance to see her. It's tougher to hide from the newspapers and pesky reporters' questions than it is to hide from comments posted on an anonymous skating forum.

iloveaxel said:

I frankly can't recall what MK has done in recent years.

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I don't think a skater has to come up with brand new elements or combinations just to show improvement or growth. Post 2002, I believe Michelle has ventured out, just in different ways:

Technically-she began 2003 with non-stop skating programs, no more posing, moments to catch her breath. I liked that, even though she had less connecting moved, I found the programs to be more seamless. The other was that she really improved on her footwork sections for her SPs and LPs that followed, so much that they became a highlight of her programs for me, and I rarely paid attention to FW sections before (other than Alexei!).

Artistically, she took on different roles, not as characters, but as interpreting the music. TFB and Bolero showed a more sensual side of Michelle. Aranjuez was more joyful (actually, I put this one on the same plane as Lyra) and Tosca was passionate. I LOVE Spartacus and wish we could've seen that program develop more. This music was similar to EOE, and I think Michelle would have made it her own if she had more time/performances.

So, no, I do not agree that Michelle had nothing to offer post 2002 or that her programs are all about a "fake connection" and nothing else.

I won't approach the Fumie aspect. Your disdain for this lovely skater has been apparent on every forum, under different names and it's a shame. She was never expected to be the next Midori for Japan, or even reach the top of all elite skaters. What she has accomplished came through her preservance and hard work. In a sport where longetivity is taboo, I can appreciate Fumie's ability to stay in and deliver consistently when she needs to.

MKFSfan said:

I won't approach the Fumie aspect. Your disdain for this lovely skater has been apparent on every forum, under different names and it's a shame. She was never expected to be the next Midori for Japan, or even reach the top of all elite skaters. What she has accomplished came through her preservance and hard work. In a sport where longetivity is taboo, I can appreciate Fumie's ability to stay in and deliver consistently when she needs to.

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ITA. Fumie has been around for a long, long time and I appreciate what she does. She is a 3-time World medalwinner and deserves the respect she has been denied.

Ugh - spare us, Dancindiva03

dancindiva03 said:

I still don't get it. What is it you all see as being such great presentation? Her face is about as expressive as a toadstool, and she repeats the same exact arm movements over and over and over ad nauseum. The whole clenched-fist arm flinging and flailing is expressive? Being able to stick your head up your butt is expressive? Don't get me wrong, her flexibility is impressive, but its not artistic or expressive or whatever. She really, quite literally, bores me to tears. And her jump technique is rather horrendous. Her flutz is even worse than Sasha Cohen's, and I always thought Sasha was the Queen of the Flutz.

Anyway, I think it is way too early to start hyping Caroline as a future world champion or anything ridiculous as that. First of all, she could get hurt. All that extreme bending and pulling on her body can be dangerous. Second, she IS going to go through puberty. Right now, physically, she reminds me a lot of a young BeBe Liang. BeBe was very teeny tiny and then she hit puberty. She didn't grow very tall but she grew out. Not heavy, but stocky and muscular. And her consistancy on jumps hasn't been the same since. At 13 people were proclaiming BeBe as the next big thing, and where is she now? She hasn't even made it to the US Senior Ladies podium. I'm not saying that she won't make it, or that what BeBe has done so far isn't respectable, but its a far cry from what the fans were predicting. I see the same thing happening to Caroline. Maybe she will be able to work through a growth spurt, maybe she won't. Like I said, its too early to tell, and as far as I'm concerned, its too early to get all excited about another little baby ballerina wannabe.

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Hater, short for "playahater"; Ebonics/street slang meaning someone who's envious of someone else's good fortune, or of the attention they're getting for doing something, ANYTHING well (can you even ADMIT that Sasha or Caroline have ANY positive attributes instead of harping ad nauseam about their lack of this, that, or the other?. I've been bursting to say this, so what the heck, here goes: Dancindiva03, you apparently just resent people's gushing about a new favorite, which has been going on, overall, without any undue bashing of other skaters. Get a life and let people get excited! Don't read the posts if they anger you so much! Personally, I think you're just jealous that there's already a Dancindiva01 (Sasha Cohen) and now, oooh, a Dancindiva02 (Caroline Zhang).

Just had to get that off my chest. What skaters DO you like? I haven't been reading posts much lately, but the ones of yours that stand out as the most heartfelt, the most adamant, are the ones where you just lay into Sasha and Caroline, my personal favorite Dancindivas

So you see the puberty monster doing the same thing to Caroline as it did to Bebe...or is that just spitefully wishful thinking?

Did the girl relieve herself in your Cheerios or something?

Ugh. Goldenskaters are free to voice their opinions, but the vitriol does get tiresome, at least in my opinion.
Sarah M.

Ok... both of the CZ threads prove its the holiday season... lots & lots of egg nog drinking with lots & lots of rum...

Every now and then we have to drop a little reminder of the obvious: A mean and spiteful post reveals more about the poster than about the object of his/her vitriol.

antmanb said:

I don't see anyone using the term "dirty word" except for you Joe! Ant

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If it is not a dirty word then why do some people change opinions, which is what this forum is all about, to hype? It is used as a derrogatory word. "My opinion" is exactly the correct phrase to use. As far as I know she hasn't paid for any hype and what we get here in the forum are some posters who believe she has a great talent. There are indeed some posters who do not agree with that. That's ok but to call my praise of Carolina as hype just doesn't get my respect for their opinions. And if you look at their posts they can not go into details as why they don't want to praise her other than she is too young. I get nothing but a blunt evaluation from them instead of a reason why they do not see her as a special little skater, or are they just trying to complain about the posters who happen to see the potential in her skating?

Joe

She doesn't live in Great Neck so the NY newspapers wont touch her until and only if she wins in Vancouver.

MKFSfan said:

So, no, I do not agree that Michelle had nothing to offer post 2002 or that her programs are all about a "fake connection" and nothing else.

.

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If I could phrase myself more carefully, I should not have left the impression that she's trying 'fake connection.'

No, I don't think she's faked. She always has the intensity, and her signature moves obviously convey this side very well. That's why she has so many loyal fans. I don't blame her for repeating those high quality moves, and I pretty much enjoy her fabulous footwork, spirals and secure jump landings. But on the other hand, as a non-diehard fan, you do get a bit tired sometimes because you don't really get into the nuanced analysis as you did on her 'seemingly same' style since 2002. Sometime, you do want to see something fresh and different, this is just human nature. As I said, I like her a lot, I do feel connected her in some of her programs, but not all.

We can just leave the other skater aside since my opinion obviously has offended you. I

sarahmistral said:

Ugh. Goldenskaters are free to voice their opinions, but the vitriol does get tiresome, at least in my opinion.
Sarah M.

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Chill out. There's no need to get caught up with that troll. He or she is just jealous and perhaps has attention deficit syndrome.

At my suggestion, he/she opened his/her own thread to dump whatever garbage there. I will never post anything in his/her thread. Just ignore him/her.

It's so funny this attention seeking whoore would come back to continue his/her irrational Caroline/Sasha rantings under this thread.

I can feel his/her pain. LOL. Sasha is gone now, here comes another 'grumpy robot'. How dare you, how dare you love Caroline??

This skating world is really not fair to our troll.