Article where Mark Lund making controversial comments on Weir, Lysacek

Overall, though, I think I am on Joe’s side with this one. Mark Lund spouting off only makes Mark Lund look bad. It doesn’t hurt Johnny Weir, USFS, the gay community, the straight community or the body politic in any apparent way. I think the comparison to Rush Limbaugh is apt – he gives us a good chuckle now and then, and otherwise, who cares? Is Rush Limbaugh my daddy?

I am a lot more worried when George Bush says, let’s send 20,000 more soldiers to Iraq. Why? Because the soldiers have to go.

But Johnny doesn’t have to ditch Camille just because Mark Lund says so.

Mathman said:

Overall, though, I think I am on Joe’s side with this one. Mark Lund spouting off only makes Mark Lund look bad. It doesn’t hurt Johnny Weir, USFS, the gay community, the straight community or the body politic in any apparent way. I think the comparison to Rush Limbaugh is apt – he gives us a good chuckle now and then, and otherwise, who cares? Is Rush Limbaugh my daddy?

I am a lot more worried when George Bush says, let’s send 20,000 more soldiers to Iraq. Why? Because the soldiers have to go.

But Johnny doesn’t have to ditch Camille just because Mark Lund says so.

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Nice perspective there, Mathman. Thank you!
xoxo
Rave

Mathman said:

2. Naw, it wouldn't. Plus, it would detract from allowing the performers their full range of expression.

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agreed... spangles and bangles and whatever else really doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other when it comes to score, but it DOES help the viewer get a better sense of the 'artistry'... Scott Hamilton's 1984 costumes were speedskater-esque... and he won... but then 10 years later you have Alexi Urmanov who had 'over the top' costumes... and there were many different costumes in that time and now... it makes it unique

if I wanted to watch a sport with the same looking uniforms I'd watch football. or soccer... or something more boring. (no, I don't find it boring because it's 'guyish' or because it's 'violent'... I don't like football because my team sucks lol)

The Seawolves suck? Say it isn't so!

Mathman said:

Antman, I think SeaniBu's point about costumes can be cast more cogently (and briefly, LOL ) like this.

1. Men's figure skating suffers at the box office because many sports fans think it is too artsy-fartsy.

2. If the ISU had some rules forbidding baubles, bangles and beads, that might help.

I think the counterargument should be

1. Skating is artsy. If you don't like that, you are not going to watch anyway.

2. Naw, it wouldn't. Plus, it would detract from allowing the performers their full range of expression.

Something like that.

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Thanks MM - you can always sum up succintly and perfectly the information i take five posts to try to express!

Ant

Mathman said:

The Seawolves suck? Say it isn't so!

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Alaska doesn't have a college football team lol... I was talking NFL - San Fran 49ers... they used to dominate, now they're a footnote during the season...

You are always close, and some times right on, but just too general and is speculation (as am I ) and thinking to answer rather than provoke thought.

Mathman said:

Antman, I think SeaniBu's point about costumes can be cast more cogently (and briefly, LOL ) like this.

1. Men's figure skating suffers at the box office because many sports fans think it is too artsy-fartsy.

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It does not suffer BECAUSE of this, but is additional and getting more flamboyant over the years. Were there more people watching in Scott Hamlton's day?

To say it would or wouldn't is speculation based on a fan base that is. Is anyone going to STOP watching if they had a rule to lessen the flamboyant? And the opposite is to a speculation. But one has statistics, the other is just "naw."

Mathman;2213562. said:

If the ISU had some rules forbidding baubles, bangles and beads, that might help.

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Disappointed, that is an exaggerative comment. But with the over exaggeration going on here so commonly trying to discredit via "ridiculous RE-wordings" I understand why.
It is sad to think that all off my points have been to "tone it down" - NOT ban - and still there are ones thinking I am saying get rid of it all together. Explains some of the popularity off FS due to fans right there.

Mathman;2213562. said:

I think the counterargument should be

1. Skating is artsy. If you don't like that, you are not going to watch anyway.

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Just as much speculation as my comments if not MORE SO due to the fact I can base what has been and make correlation to that which HAS happened, all you are doing is saying it wouldn't without having anything to base that on other then a opinion - and a seemingly negative one at that.

Mathman said:

2. Naw, it wouldn't. Plus, it would detract from allowing the performers their full range of expression.

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You can try to belittle the point all you want, but popularity and the correlation between "LIMITED" flamboyant behavior - whether speculation or not - still had a bigger fan base then what is has now with. And if limiting anything is OK? Then what is wrong with it. If they need to act like they are in a gay march parade or a Red lit district strut. Does it NEED to happen?

AND AGAIN because no one seems to get it, I AM NOT SAYING COMPLETELY GET RID OF, just tone it down, so it appears to be under control - like a sport does.
I think there is more speculation to what I am really saying than actual comprehension. It is there, I just don't think some want to hear the truth, it is there but it must be read all before coming to conclusion.

Ant, one worthy comment dictating answer.
Your ideas of what is offensive and it's degree of such - flamboyant vs. Sexual. That is just you. Flamboyancy and Sexuality (of course they are different you condescending little... ) but the amount of severity is relative to the individual and your or even the general populous, does not need to speak for the entire world as far as what is worse. That is opinion. Sexual expression can be just as important to "self expression" as "flamboyant" and neither one are NECESSARY IN FS.

LAst there was some stupid comment that indicated I might have a prejudice against gays, the poster responsible for that comment is totally ridiculous and has no provocation to believe such a stupid SPECULATION that is not necessary. A difference between making distinction and making a discrimination DS.
Gays don't like all things gay, and straights don't hate all things gay, etc.. so the comment is stupid and slanderous. I could care less if they are gay or not. That is the WHOLE POINT. IT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE AND BEING FLAMBOYANT IN ANY REGARD IS BRINGING ATTENTION TO SOMETHING THAT IS DISTRACTING FROM THE SPORT / PERFORMANCE. clue pls.

The only thing this had to do with skating is how the time off the ice was effecting skating. Why can't people see the correlation. There shouldn't be a correlation.

Toning it down was basically what Lund was saying. However, instead of arguing his point, he seemed to be cast as someone who should not have an opinion. Maybe the show was one-sided opinion and another should take place to counterpoint.

I agree with you Seanibu. I don't find that straight men see it as artsy-fartsy but as sissyish. Sequined swans do not bother most women but for men, it takes a while to see where the sport is at. There really is a difference between uniforms and costumes.

Joe

Sean, I wasn't taking sides, offering an opinion or belittling anyone's point of view. I was trying to state what I thought was a reasonable argrument in favor of toning down the flamboyancy in costumes and skating styles, and then what I thought was a reasonable argument on the other side of that issue.

Joesitz said:

I don't find that straight men see it as artsy-fartsy but as sissyish.

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I think the majority of straight men think that artsy is sissy. No matter how macho a style Baryshnakov may affect and no matter how successful a Don Juan he may be off stage, still I think the majority of straight men in America think, "He's a ballet dancer, he must be gay. If he were straight, would he be prancing about in those sissy tights?"

yet it's those same men who watch a bunch of guys in spandex and shoulderpads every Sunday and Monday night......

football players have chicken legs when they wear those tight little pants.

Tonichelle said:

yet it's those same men who watch a bunch of guys in spandex and shoulderpads every Sunday and Monday night......

football players have chicken legs when they wear those tight little pants.

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thank you thank you! I'm here all week!

Sorry, I am splitting hairs because I feel my comments are construed way out and "extreme" when I am only saying I believe a "toned down" would help the "sport" aspect be MORE prevalent other then this distraction that OVER flamboyancy brings to the table.

The Sexual reasoning is meant as in comparison not as a exact example. Sexual programs and provocative content detract from the "competitive sport," to bring unequal emphasis on to the artistic - HENCE disrupting the balance of sport and art. Flamboyance does the same thing IMO, and that of many that don't already subscribe to being a fan also state as being an issue.

I have a friend who will never be into FS, and his input is more vital then someone who is a fan when you are considering factors that make FS less "appealing" then it once was to the US audence.

Mathman said:

I think the majority of straight men think that artsy is sissy. No matter how macho a style Baryshnakov may affect and no matter how successful a Don Juan he may be off stage, still I think the majority of straight men in America think, "He's a ballet dancer, he must be gay. If he were straight, would he be prancing about in those sissy tights?"

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I believe that to be very true.:agree: Baryshnakov is supposed to be more artsy. FS is supposed to have a balance between the 2. When you start putting more emphasis on the artistic aspects like "free to act or dress more closely to the pro circuit or a Show" at that point it has become more like Ballet and it has at that point lost the balance.

The football and "men in tights" is the perfect example. Even though they are wearing tights the emphasis is still on the sport. Sport is meant as the emphasis of Football, the outfits are way down the list of importance. FS should have equal emphasis or it should just go all pro circuit and tour venues such as a broadway show would.

The thing that has happened as a result of this "flamboyancy" is exactly the problem, here we have the emphasis of attention on sexuality preference. this is due to the OVER prevalence of the question coming to mind in the first place. If the flamboyancy was not there to such a degree this would have been 10 times less likely to have been an issue. How could one speculate "riding the fence" if the issue was not apparent in the first place. If skaters like Johnny addressed FS more EQUALLY as a sport and not forcing so much attention on how unique and the sexuality, this never would have been an issue to begin with. I don't see these issues arising around Jeff Buttle. But Jeff appears to be more serious than Johnny when it comes to being a skater opposed to a "pop figure."

I would say you Earn your right to be who ever you want to be known as once you go pro and have proved your worth in the competitive ranks, until then follow the guidelines and be an athlete. Even do your little advertising gig if you like, but the "personal business" stays off the ice.

That is the whole point. If there was not so much flamboyant behavior and obvious "attempts at getting attention" in the first place then this never would have been an issue. The fact it is an issue is PROOF that the balance has become skewed and there is attention on things that have no reason other then a skater getting more attention and not for skill but "their voice in the community."

If one is to think that "freedom of expression is going to suffer" if the guidelines to how flamboyant an outfit or behavior can be, then "expression" is in question. Why could they convey expression in the past without such extremes?
Why is it necessary to implicate sexual preference, and why is that allowed when there is not supposed to be any strong sexual overtones anyway?

Flamboyant men have a correlation to a sexual preference - be that the morally correct thing or not, a fact is a fact. G-strings and feather butts have strong implications to sexual morality - be that the morally correct thing or not, a fact is a fact. One might offend more then another to any given individual, the fact remains they can both be "offensive" and their importance is ZERO if f FS is the TRULY the main concern.

And I am sorry to disagree, but anyone that thinks Johnny picked the passion JUST BECAUSE IT WAS A GOOD ROUTINE That is totally laughable. He picked it because it would cause controversy and give him attention. DUH! That is where "using" one aspect of FS is not in balance with the other. ANd his skating has also suffered whether it be the reason or not, JW's skating is not following up on the attention he is getting.

And last (not that I am a fan of Lund) BUT Lund is acting in defense of gays where Jonhnny is using it to his personal gain, is the point. Lund acted inappropriately but his intent is more admirable then one who rides the wave of attention with no regard for those who it has effect.

Mathman said:

I think the majority of straight men think that artsy is sissy. No matter how macho a style Baryshnakov may affect and no matter how successful a Don Juan he may be off stage, still I think the majority of straight men in America think, "He's a ballet dancer, he must be gay. If he were straight, would he be prancing about in those sissy tights?"

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Misha has done very well in America in a country that is just getting to understand what ballet is all about, and it goes beyond Swan Lake. He is known for his Don Juan life and father of Ms Lange's baby as well as movies. He doesn't have that problem you mention in other countries, and the audiences in America have grown substantially with men attending the arts. Lots of tights worn in movies and opera too. Zorro gay? Pavoratti in workman's clothes? Those are costumes by the way, too but not in sports.

But we are not talking about ballet, we are talking about a sport. We expect to see shorts in Men's gymnastics; we expect to see speedos in swimming. Of course the team sports wear uniforms - not costumes.

The Detroit Tigers with a sequined tiger embroidered on their shirts with rhinestone eyes. Now who is artsy fartsy?

Joe

Tonichelle said:

yet it's those same men who watch a bunch of guys in spandex and shoulderpads every Sunday and Monday night......

football players have chicken legs when they wear those tight little pants.

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Indeed, women do like men's buns but matching legs is difficult unless they go to bodybuilders.

Joesitz said:

Zorro gay?

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I pass no judgment.

http://www.cfhf.net/lyrics/zorro.htm

Joesitz said:

Indeed, women do like men's buns but matching legs is difficult unless they go to bodybuilders.

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Give me a skater's butt over a football player's anyday!

I think it's funny that so many seem to be worried about Johnny bringing down the popularity of the sport. He's by far the most popular American male skater worldwide today. He's the only eligible male American skater who has a significant fan base outside the U.S., with many fans in Eastern Europe and Asia.

He's brought many fans into figure skating that hadn't given it a thought before they saw him at the Olympics. You only need to look at the results of the Marshalls popularity contest to see that he vastly outpolled Evan, and was second only to Sasha, who has way more name recognition outside FS.

Some fans seem to think that FS all along has been as popular as it was in the 90s. That's just not so. The spike in popularity was an aberration, imo. FS will probably never be a mainstream sport. If anything is hurting it with the casual audience (based on my own anecdotal evidence) it's the increase in difficulty and subsequent rise in the number of falls, etc. I've heard from numerous friends who used to watch the comps and shows, that they simply aren't interested in watching a splatfest. They also overdid the coverage of cheesefests during the boom years. It's the "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?" syndrome.

And the typical male sports fan who likes football, etc. is not going to watch FS. Ever. They're just not, no matter how "macho" the guys act. (And yes, I know there are exceptions. But for the most part, it's not going to happen.)

Another thing that's hurting FS in the US more than anything else is the lack of a strong, charismatic ladies champion. Sasha has retired in all but name, imo. Michelle is gone. No one has come along yet who really captures the imagination of the public (and, face it, in the US, it's all about the pretty ice princesses). Nothing against Kimmie, but she's not there yet. If Alissa Czisney could master her jumps, I think she would have everything it takes. But unfortunately, at this point she has not.

Anyway, Lund is a jerk. Kerrigan and Lou Tilley are not much better. That's all.