Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

bekalc · Nov 5, 2009

prettykeys said:
Meh...I'd put Mao's dislike of the 3salchow on the same level as YuNa's dislike of the 3loop.

I actually don't care so much that Mao is missing a 3salchow. A 3axel more than makes up for it. But I feel when talking about jump technique it's fair to note Kim for example can do the 3salchow.

Of course Joannie Rochette has all the jumps, just no 3/3. :lol: And I don't think it counts that Rochette can do the 3/3s in practice either.

janetfan · Nov 5, 2009

bekalc said:
I actually don't care so much that Mao is missing a 3salchow. A 3axel more than makes up for it. But I feel when talking about jump technique it's fair to note Kim for example can do the 3salchow.

Of course Joannie Rochette has all the jumps, just no 3/3. :lol: And I don't think it counts that Rochette can do the 3/3s in practice either.

What you are saying is right. Yuna, under Cop has no reason to risk losing points with her unreliable 3L.

Same with Mao and her 3S. However, because they need points and not variety it does limit the interest in their jump layouts. At this point Mao much more so than Yuna.

The 3A may never be reliable again for Mao and with her trouble with other jumps I think Joannie will continue to beat Mao at competitions.

Skatetomusic · Nov 5, 2009

I would like to take this topic one step farther because I think NHK broadcasting may have a reputation for oppressing citizens of Japan.

Blades of Passion · Nov 5, 2009

bekalc said:
That's ridiculous. By that logic, I can argue that Yu-na has a wonderful 3loop

Yu-Na has practiced Quad Loops, really??? By all means show me the footage.

bekalc said:
I actually don't care so much that Mao is missing a 3salchow. A 3axel more than makes up for it. But I feel when talking about jump technique it's fair to note Kim for example can do the 3salchow.

Mao is not "missing" a 3salchow. She can do it if she wanted to and has landed very good 3Sals in competition.

Yu-Na messed up her 3Sal twice last season. It's not like she is perfect with that jump either.

antmanb · Nov 6, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
I don't think she does. Mao can do the jump fine. There are videos of her practicing Quad Sal, even.

The problem is that there is not much incentive to do the jump. She simply doesn't like the 3Sal, so she doesn't train it in her programs. A Double Axel with a +1 GOE scores the same.

So when we're discussing the triple loop for Yuna, practice and videos of practice don't count, but when we're discussing Mao and the salchow, practice videos and practice performance count.

Got it

It's so much easier when the rules are explained like this: in any comparison between Mao and Yuna Mao will always win, even it requires double standards.

There with that cleared up please continue to play...

Ant

prettykeys · Nov 6, 2009

The point about Mao's videos of practicing the 4salchow is that...if she was able to practice the quad, then it means she had no problem doing the 3salchow.

However, I would put the disclaimer that it was a long time ago (around 2005, before her growth spurt--she's a lot smaller in the video) and it isn't definitive proof that Mao is still able to do a 3salchow or try a 4salchow. But it's something to consider.

Anyway, I don't think Mao has been "destroyed" at all. Just because her performance in the last two appearances has been disappointing, does not mean she has lost the skills she had. She's going through a rough patch made worse by her circumstances (coaching, scheduling.) I think the skills are still there, but at the moment she's not in her keenest mental state, which I think is easier to fix than not ever having had the skills in the first place. Personally, I think she's right up there with YuNa, but YuNa has the better support system (and consistency, which may very well be at least partly due to her stabler situation.)

Tinymavy15 · Nov 6, 2009

prettykeys said:
The point about Mao's videos of practicing the 4salchow is that...if she was able to practice the quad, then it means she had no problem doing the 3salchow.

However, I would put the disclaimer that it was a long time ago (around 2005, before her growth spurt--she's a lot smaller in the video) and it isn't definitive proof that Mao is still able to do a 3salchow or try a 4salchow. But it's something to consider.

right. and Mao said herself that it was trying the quad sal that messed up her technique on the triple.

bekalc · Nov 6, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Yu-Na has practiced Quad Loops, really??? By all means show me the footage.

Mao is not "missing" a 3salchow. She can do it if she wanted to and has landed very good 3Sals in competition.

Yu-Na messed up her 3Sal twice last season. It's not like she is perfect with that jump either.

If Mao could do 3salchows when she wanted, she'd be doing them in competition. After all, doing 3salchows is certainly more points than a double axel or a triple toe. She's landed 2 her entire international career. In comparision to Kim who has landed quite a few her entire international career. Yu-na probably has close to an 80% hit rate on her 3salchows. Mao does not.

It doesn't really matter If Mao was practicing quad salchows 5 years ago. Ever since then her technique has been thrown off. Kristi Yamaguchi got thrown of her technique by doing throw triple salchows... And to be frank Miki never lost her 3salchow from doing a quad salchow.

moojja · Nov 6, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
right. and Mao said herself that it was trying the quad sal that messed up her technique on the triple.

I don't understand how learning a quad can mess up the technique on a triple. (Not a criticism on Mao, I've heard other skaters use that reasoning.) For example none of the men have trouble with triple toe, even if their quad toe sucks. None of the ladies with unstable or underrotated triples have trouble with their doubles. What make a quad so different?

gourry · Nov 6, 2009

moojja said:
I don't understand how learning a quad can mess up the technique on a triple. (Not a criticism on Mao, I've heard other skaters use that reasoning.) For example none of the men have trouble with triple toe, even if their quad toe sucks. None of the ladies with unstable or underrotated triples have trouble with their doubles. What make a quad so different?

I wonder the same thing. Because I don't have any experience I say this based on pure speculation, but IMHO, if you practice quad, you need more power, height, momentum, etc so if only you can stay away from injury, it will benefit you and your triples will get bigger, higher, stronger...! .......But in reality it does not, I guess.

bekalc · Nov 6, 2009

gourry said:
I wonder the same thing. Because I don't have any experience I say this based on pure speculation, but IMHO, if you practice quad, you need more power, height, momentum, etc so it can only benefit your triple! .......But in reality it does not, I guess.

See the thing is with me I'm willing to suspect there may have been something a bit wrong with Mao's 3salchow to begin with. Because Joubert tries a quad salchow, and his 3salchow is great. Same goes for Miki Ando, who has actually done a quad salchow in competition, and still has a great three salchow. I mean I do worry a bit about the thrown of technique, but it seems to me most people who can do quad toes hardly have messed up 3toes etc.

I hate that I'm probably coming accross as criticizing Mao. And I actually love her skating, and I don't really mind that her 3salchow isn't there (when she's doing everything else) But it just annoys me when someone says that Mao has a better 3salchow than Yu-na. When Yu-na can land her 3salchow consistently in competition, and Mao cannot land her 3salchow consistently in competition. If someone was arguing that Yu-na had an amazing 3loop, I'd be annoyed with that, and I love Yu-na.

gourry · Nov 6, 2009

bekalc said:
If someone was arguing that Yu-na had an amazing 3loop, I'd be annoyed with that, and I love Yu-na.

Yuna has an amazing 3 loop.

Sorry. Couldn't resist. :biggrin:

sjwh08 · Nov 6, 2009

gourry said:
Yuna has an amazing 3 loop.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

One thing I notice about Yu-na is that she doesn't seem to like to include jumps about which she is not 100% certain (in terms of successfully landing in competitions) in her programs. So she may have an amazing loop in practices and we may see it someday (I'm kinda looking forward to it).

Going back to OT, it seems that Mao needs to work on jumps (all kinds of them), COP or no COP. I don't believe she's "destroyed".

janetfan · Nov 6, 2009

sjwh08 said:
One thing I notice about Yu-na is that she doesn't seem to like to include jumps about which she is not 100% certain (in terms of successfully landing in competitions) in her programs. So she may have an amazing loop in practices and we may see it someday (I'm kinda looking forward to it).

Going back to OT, it seems that Mao needs to work on jumps (all kinds of them), COP or no COP. I don't believe she's "destroyed".

Orser is not a dummy - and if Yuna had amazing 3Loops in practice we would see them in her programs. We don't see them because she can't do this jump consistently enough. Many skaters have a problem jump and this is not unusual.
Some have said this jump bothers Yuna's old injury but I don't know if this is true. If it does she is wise to skip it because there is no requirement for it.

gkelly · Nov 6, 2009

janetfan said:
Orser is not a dummy - and if Yuna had amazing 3Loops in practice we would see them in her programs. We don't see them because she can't do this jump consistently enough.

It's possible for a jump to be inconsistent -- often go wrong -- in practice, but still be amazing on those occasions when it does go right.

In that case the coach and the skater might decide it's more likely to go wrong than to go right in competition and that it would be wiser to leave the jump out of the program.

sjwh08 · Nov 6, 2009

janetfan said:
We don't see them because she can't do this jump consistently enough.

That was my point?

I do hope someday when she lands it with consistency so that she can include it in her program. Last time I saw her 3L (I think it was in Miss Saigon), it was awesomely high and clean. I do want to see it again in competition.

hellcat · Nov 6, 2009

Back to the topic,

IMO, her problem seems to be her weight and the loss of hang time because of that.

Even in her good days, time to time she had 2 footed landings in her 3A.

But she was light enough not to lose the control back then. Not anymore. Because of her added weight, the rotation won't stop that easily with 2 foot landing. And we all know what happens when the rotation doesn't stop with 2 foot landing.

I'm one of those who don't understand why she has to gamble on 3A. She has her other skills that shines over others. And I don't think 3A is one of them. She has to adjust herself to her physical change.

jaws12345 · Nov 6, 2009

Medusa said:
The question is - how far would Asada have gotten under 6.0, especially with her jump layout? In 2005 she was ridiculed for her jump layout, here and elsewhere. "Only Flips, Loops and Axels - no Salchow, no Toeloop, not real Lutz". Would 6.0 crowned her a multiple Champion without a Triple Toeloop, without a Triple Salchow? Plus all the double-footing, that she always was prone to - those jumps wouldn't have been counted under 6.0 (at least not normally).

I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.

I totally agree. Blame everything on CoP, right? How about the fact that Asada didn't have a full-time coach for two freaking years?

I just don't understand the JSF is doing with all its money.

GET ASADA A YOUNG ENERGETIC FULL-TIME COACH and A JUMP SPECIALIST for xxx sake; otherwise she might end up only with double Axel.

Blades of Passion · Nov 6, 2009

prettykeys said:
The point about Mao's videos of practicing the 4salchow is that...if she was able to practice the quad, then it means she had no problem doing the 3salchow.

Yes, indeed.

bekalc said:
If Mao could do 3salchows when she wanted, she'd be doing them in competition. After all, doing 3salchows is certainly more points than a double axel or a triple toe.

That's not true, though. Mao gets between +1 to +2 GOE for her Double Axels. That's the same score as +0 to +1 for a Triple Salchow (which is what she would get on that element). So...why practice the 3Sal if you don't prefer to do it and it doesn't actually give you more points?

TBH, the only purpose the 3Sal serves Mao is if she wanted to break a record and become the first lady to land 8 Triples in a program. That kind of thing would be very exciting and help her scores out. Otherwise, the 3Sal is basically worthless for her.

bekalc said:
She's landed 2 her entire international career.

Out of 4 attempts, when she was doing the jump directly after a Spiral and in the second half of her program.

Yes, Yu-Na has landed the jump many more times than Mao...because she is constantly attempting it. She actually has less consistency with the jump than her Flip and Toeloop, though. It's not a bad jump for her, but she is clearly more of a toe-pick jumper.

bekalc said:
But it just annoys me when someone says that Mao has a better 3salchow than Yu-na.

I never said this. I said they are pretty much equal in their capabilities on it.

prettykeys · Nov 6, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
right. and Mao said herself that it was trying the quad sal that messed up her technique on the triple.

It is definitely possible.

For those who are puzzled, I would imagine that in order to attain the power and speed to be able to do 4 rotations, Mao may have gotten more lax about her salchow technique.

Although, there were reports of Mao once practicing 4loops, too. :eek:

And she still has her 3loop.

Hm.

Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

bekalc

janetfan

Match Penalty

Skatetomusic

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

antmanb

prettykeys

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

bekalc

moojja

gourry

bekalc

gourry

sjwh08

janetfan

Match Penalty

gkelly

sjwh08

hellcat

jaws12345

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

prettykeys

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