2015 Cup of China Short Dance
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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And why no one told Weaver/Poje that they skate to 6/8 music? Same goes for Chock/Bates, Hubbel/Donohue, and all the teams who actually received music and tempo violation deductions this season. It's hard to say why, I guess no one pays attention to this little detail, until it's too late
Edit: but all this talk is useless, until we know if STL is 6/8 for sure. Honestly, I would be glad if they will change it, what a bad fan I am :hopelessness:
W/P's problem wasn't the waltz, it was the "foxtrot", which the judges said didn't have the feel of a foxtrot, although technically Heartbreak Hotel does fit the tempo requirements.
You can find sheet music for STL in 3/4, and it's been used a lot in ballroom dance for Viennese Waltz, so I don't think there will be a problem.
Their waltz (the exact version of the record they used) was in 6/8, I can hear it CLEARLY. Lucky them they found 6/8 version, because most records of 'Can't Help Falling in Love' are in 4/4 time. Maybe foxtrot was a problem too, I don't know.
I tried to find an information about 'Somebody to Love' and it's really interesting. Different sources have a different information. According to this sheet there is a mixture of 12/8 and 6/8 signatures, without 3/4 signature in the whole song. Link: http://sheets-piano.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Queen-Somebody-To-Love.pdf
This video says so also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI1y3JbAQ8M And in this video you can clearly hear that the count is not typical for 3/4 time signature (try to compare it with Chock/Bates 'Dark Eyes' for example, or any other waltz).
Like I said, I'm not an expert, but I strongly believe that they use 6/8 piece during the pattern. Maybe real musicians can help?
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I was told by someone in the judges ice dance seminar at Finlandia that the issue was with the foxtrot, there were no concerns about the waltz choice.
And you can strongly believe all you want about I/Z
, but as far as we're aware, neither the tech specialists from the Russian Fed nor the tech panel at MO, which included the head of the ice dance technical committee, have had an issue with their music. I can clearly count out 3/4 rhythm to their music - like you, I'm not an expert, but I do ice dance myself & I can skate Tulips from Amsterdam (another Viennese Waltz) to STL with no rhythm issues.I was told by someone in the judges ice dance seminar at Finlandia that the issue was with the foxtrot, there were no concerns about the waltz choice.
And you can strongly believe all you want about I/Z
Technical panel have nothing to do with music or/and tempo violation deductions.
If you can hear it, I'm glad, because I can't. Find me music sheet where STL is in 3/4 time, and I will gladly agree with you.
It's already there at post # 22. I don't think the specialists relish deducting much needed marks from our hard working athletes. So if there is any proof that STL is actually in 3/4, I'm banking on them giving them the benefit of the doubt :hap85:
What a strange fan you are, hoping they'll fail before they put one blade on the ice :scard8::roll5:
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It's already there at post # 22. I don't think the specialists relish deducting much needed marks from our hard working athletes. So if there is any proof that STL is actually in 3/4, I'm banking on them giving them the benefit of the doubt :hap85:
Well, like me and uhh, the judges and referee are, most likely, no music experts also, so everything will be fine. No one will push the deduction button if he/she is not absolutely 100% sure of that.
Now this is a strange statement. I'm NOT hoping they will fail, who told you that? But I'm all in for them changing the SD.
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Post #22 for the 3/4 time
- although I wouldn't trust anything you find in online sheet music, whether 3/4, 6/8 or 12/8 because I've also seen versions of it written in 4/4 which is completely ridiculous.On the tech panel issue, OK, my terminology was wrong, but the broader point is - I/Z have shown their program to various national specialists & in front of an international panel which included the head of the ISU ice dance technical committee. They got no violations from the referee or judges, & as far as we know, no feedback after the event that they need to change anything like W/P did. And judges do give feedback after the event (Anna & Luca in deep discussion with a judge on Saturday evening was a highlight of going to TEB in 2012), so if there were judges on the panel who had issues with it at MO, I am sure they would have been told & would have done something about it.
http://www.ballroomdancers.com/dances/dance_overview.asp?Dance=VW
This website, though I don't know how credible, says a Viennese Waltz (which is what the style of the Ravensburger should be to iirc) can be both 6/8 as 3/4. If the music changes for W/P and C/B were both for their second music style rather than the waltz, maybe it doesn't matter if it's 6/8 or 3/4.
This website, though I don't know how credible, says a Viennese Waltz (which is what the style of the Ravensburger should be to iirc) can be both 6/8 as 3/4. If the music changes for W/P and C/B were both for their second music style rather than the waltz, maybe it doesn't matter if it's 6/8 or 3/4.
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http://static.isu.org/media/207423/ravensburger-waltz.pdf
66 measures of 6/8 is 396 beats. (doesn't work) Clearly this rule does not intend 6/8.
Either you have too few measures or too many beats with 6/8. And every other group of 3 beats is lacking the stress that facilitates the appropriate lilting action. This cannot be fixed.
Ballroom rules and ice-dance rules are not identical, any more than Canadian football rules are identical to NFL football rules or Pop Warner football rules, for that matter. All sports, even similar sports, have their own rules
Here's what the ISU Ravensburger was supposed to sound like back in the day when the ISU supplied the music for the dance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchmGHg03o&list=PLZewnTWvyh7z7A_zA2H5_dGkpzH0hIx7i
Which day went up to 2010.
These pattern dances have deliberately very strict rules, as in their native form, they are Compulsory Dances.
The judges can of course, choose not to impose the rules. Their call, not mine.
66 measures of 6/8 is 396 beats. (doesn't work) Clearly this rule does not intend 6/8.
Either you have too few measures or too many beats with 6/8. And every other group of 3 beats is lacking the stress that facilitates the appropriate lilting action. This cannot be fixed.
Ballroom rules and ice-dance rules are not identical, any more than Canadian football rules are identical to NFL football rules or Pop Warner football rules, for that matter. All sports, even similar sports, have their own rules
Here's what the ISU Ravensburger was supposed to sound like back in the day when the ISU supplied the music for the dance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchmGHg03o&list=PLZewnTWvyh7z7A_zA2H5_dGkpzH0hIx7i
Which day went up to 2010.
These pattern dances have deliberately very strict rules, as in their native form, they are Compulsory Dances.
The judges can of course, choose not to impose the rules. Their call, not mine.
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I'm no expert musician, but I was getting 3/4 time, around 197 BPM. I'll try counting again later, but I counted five times and haven't even broken 200, much less gotten anywhere in the vicinity of 396.
In any case, Halina Gordon Poltarak was on the tech panel at Mordovian Ornament, and she's the head of the ISU ice dance technical committee. If there was a problem, she probably alerted them. We didn't even know that Chock/Bates had changed their SD music until a day or two before SA. So maybe they made a change and haven't announced it yet, or else it's probably fine.
In any case, Halina Gordon Poltarak was on the tech panel at Mordovian Ornament, and she's the head of the ISU ice dance technical committee. If there was a problem, she probably alerted them. We didn't even know that Chock/Bates had changed their SD music until a day or two before SA. So maybe they made a change and haven't announced it yet, or else it's probably fine.
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The problem with counting 6/8 is that the beats are too short and curt, and sometimes they're just mushing together. While in 3/4 you can clearly hear and extract each bit by ear.
I've tried to count beats during their pattern, but it's very hard to do because the quality of the sound is average at best and I can't hear the beats clearly. Maybe after Cup of China it will be easier to do with HD videos :confused2:
I've tried to count beats during their pattern, but it's very hard to do because the quality of the sound is average at best and I can't hear the beats clearly. Maybe after Cup of China it will be easier to do with HD videos :confused2:
http://www.infiniteguitar.com/metronome.php
This isn't perfect, it only measures BPM in increments of 5 so you have to settle for 195 or 200 BPM, but it has a feature where it plays in the time signature you want. Perhaps I am too tired to gauge accurately, but setting it to 200 BPM in 3/4 time sounded almost right when I played it over I/Z's RW. Ever so slightly off, but closer than 200 BPM in 6/8 time, and it's certainly not 396 BPM.
This isn't perfect, it only measures BPM in increments of 5 so you have to settle for 195 or 200 BPM, but it has a feature where it plays in the time signature you want. Perhaps I am too tired to gauge accurately, but setting it to 200 BPM in 3/4 time sounded almost right when I played it over I/Z's RW. Ever so slightly off, but closer than 200 BPM in 6/8 time, and it's certainly not 396 BPM.
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Not 396 bpm, 396 beats total, if they use 66 measures. Someone in trying to use 6/8 for the Ravensburger, would use 33 measures, not 66. But the specification is 66 measures of 3/4, so it is quite clear. If they wished 6/8 to be an option, they would say "or 33 measures of 6/8."
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Unfortunately, Somebody to love is in 6/8. There may be variations throughout the piece but the bit they are using for the RW pattern is 6/8. Sure, you can waltz to 6/8 if you want to but as far as I know the RW requirements are clearly 3/4.
I am kind of worried for I/Z now because having to change your SD at that point of the season is not very good but I don't think they should risk getting a music violation at Euros or Worlds.
It makes me curious though, with now several cases of picking the wrong meter, how do skaters choose their music? Do they just get whatever sounds waltzable to them? Or maybe it was a result of everyone trying not to do traditional ballroom waltzes this season because of the pasos last season? Because all of these pieces are clearly not 3/4. Hopefully everyone will be more aware of this meter problem for future seasons and carefully measure the pieces they are picking.
I am kind of worried for I/Z now because having to change your SD at that point of the season is not very good but I don't think they should risk getting a music violation at Euros or Worlds.
It makes me curious though, with now several cases of picking the wrong meter, how do skaters choose their music? Do they just get whatever sounds waltzable to them? Or maybe it was a result of everyone trying not to do traditional ballroom waltzes this season because of the pasos last season? Because all of these pieces are clearly not 3/4. Hopefully everyone will be more aware of this meter problem for future seasons and carefully measure the pieces they are picking.
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Perhaps they felt validated by the fact that ballroom allows 6/8, despite there being no connection between the two sports? :confused2:
But it was not the first time this has happened. You should have heard the "wangos" that people did to the Golden Waltz. Just vile.
:dev2::angry1:
But it was not the first time this has happened. You should have heard the "wangos" that people did to the Golden Waltz. Just vile.
:dev2::angry1:
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Are you musician?
I don't know about the other teams, but AFAIR, Elena said in one of her summer interviews that she was listening to the song in her car, when she decided it would be a good choice for their waltz.
Speaking of other waltzes. Juniors are dancing the Starlight Waltz this year, and I don't remember such problems with them. I'm not even sure there was a single music tempo violation deduction. And all the top junior teams skate to clearly recognizable 3/4 waltzes in required tempo range, with correct other rhythms. Why so many problems with Seniors?
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:Juniors do not drive? :scard7:
Either cars with radios or their coaching teams.
The coaches know what a waltz is.
But the seniors with these problems often cite a desire to do something different or unusual.
( This actually does not apply to Weaver and Poje or Chock and Bates. Their problems were with the rhythms of the non-waltz part of the SD)
Message: Creativity does not mean trying to convince the judges that a chihuahua is a sheep dog. Or that a tango is a waltz.
Do something unique and interesting, stylish, and elegant with a waltz. That is the defined task.
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