"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

Random thing.
In the last two years, according to fans, every single competition was overscored.
Maybe we should just get over it and accept the new pattern?

Never mind!!

Blades of Passion said:

Oh, I think Radionova has really good skating skills. When you see what she can do with just a couple strokes and the depth of edge she gets, it really outshines someone like Ashley in that regard. She usually has a lot of attack in her programs too, she projects confidence. It should be noted that her condition at Europeans wasn't as good, she was slower there and more mechanical. Yeah, her programs also weren't artistically very good these season and she needs to work more on her posture and reigning in some of her frantic movement, but I think she does still have good moments in the Long Program and was able to project some genuine emotion. I love the way she looks all the way up at the end of her first combination spin, for example. Maybe I did still overscore her a touch on choreography and interpretation, though.

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I want to add that it's much easier to gain speed with a hunched back. So imho you cannot ignore her bad posture when you judge her SS. She has a lot of work to do.

YesWay said:

If someone can't justify their scoring according to the GoE bullet points and PCS criteria...
...then frankly their scores are just made-up nonsense.

Judges are supposed to be basing their scoring on those exact same bullet points and criteria. They ought to be able to do it in their heads, in the time available - because that's their job.

And if we don't think they did it right, then we have to go back to the GoE bullet points and PCS criteria when "re-scoring", to justify our claims. Without that, we have no credible case, we can't show where judges made mistakes or were inconsistent or over/under generous.

Take your time, do it properly. Or what's the point?
You are not a judge, so you don't have to do it all in 1/2 a second...

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Okay. Then let's see your specific analysis. I'm curious to see how you would score everyone using in the criteria from the inside-out. I'm pretty sure everyone's curious as well. :agree:

andyjo24 said:

Okay. Then let's see your specific analysis. I'm curious to see how you would score everyone using in the criteria from the inside-out.

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If you have anything to say about the validity of what I said, then we can talk.

But if you want to make this something personal and pointless, forget it.

YesWay said:

If you have anything to say about the validity of what I said, then we can talk.

But if you want to make this something personal and pointless, forget it.

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This isn't something personal and pointless. I'm genuinely curious about how you would score each skater and each element based on all of the specific criteria stated in the handbook.

This would be a great opportunity for all GS members to learn and score better next time.

I see Anna in that light. Because of her height and body type, she appears awkward and hunched all the time when she skates. She also need to smile one in a while-or at least remove her B*&^ face when she skates.

jeb said:

I see Anna in that light. Because of her height and body type, she appears awkward and hunched all the time when she skates. She also need to smile one in a while-or at least remove her B*&^ face when she skates.

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actually no she doesn't need to smile if the music doesn't call for it, which it didn't.

Blades of passion I totally agree on your podium and the overall ranking seems quite fair too. You seem to be a bit conservative on the PCS but if the overall order is fine I have no problem with it. Great post!

LeReveur said:

I'm not going to claim that I approve of this or disapprove of this, but here's a controversial "solution": have judges announce the final standings at the end. They can put scores in the computer after each skater but treat them as rough drafts/provisional scores until the final skater is done. Then, they can finalize their scores (perhaps after a few minutes of reviewing and thinking?). Scandalous, I know, but one way for skate order not to necessarily penalize or reward skaters .

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I guess it comes down to the question of whether we want the judges assessing elements only or deciding placements. Under 6.0, marks were used to decide placements, even though there were two marks. With COP, it is harder to do this because there is a lot of calculation involved in producing the skater's score. However, the problem is that we can get outcomes that many of the judges probably don't agree with.

YesWay said:

Judges are supposed to be basing their scoring on those exact same bullet points and criteria. They ought to be able to do it in their heads, in the time available - because that's their job.

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It doesn't take a long time to think, e.g., "speed, center, positions, revolutions" and then punch in/write down +2 for the spin. Far less time than the duration of the actual spin (especially if it has enough revolutions to earn that bullet point)

Or, let's say "height, distance, speed, difficult air position, stretch on landing, +2 , incorrect takeoff edge -2" and punch in 0 for a jump.

It does, however, take additional time to write down (shorthand notes for) all those reasons, and looking down to write could mean missing the next thing that the skater does -- including turns added to the landing edge after it's established, as Medvedeva did on her triple-triple combos in the freeskate (should I guess that the judges who gave those +3 were the ones who didn't look down too soon?).

Similarly, it takes a lot more time to type up those shorthand notes into readable prose in a Golden Skate post, even after just watching once without going back to review/verify anything.

So should we aim to spend more time recording our thought processes and translating into words so we can share more detailed reasoning, about fewer skaters?

It might be quicker to type up just the scores and then discuss the reasoning for specific elements or components where we have disagreements with the panel or each other.

And if we don't think they did it right, then we have to go back to the GoE bullet points and PCS criteria when "re-scoring", to justify our claims. Without that, we have no credible case, we can't show where judges made mistakes or were inconsistent or over/under generous.

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I'd much rather have a thread to share our own thoughts and discuss disagreements than to think of it as second guessing the judges or each other to prove that we're right and those who disagree are wrong.

We won't all agree with each other on every score. Let's respect each other's thought processes and learn from sharing observations someone else might have overlooked.

And I do often find that if I get a chance to rewatch I may see additional details that either strengthen my case for a specific score or cause me to change my mind and change the score.

Unfortunately we don't also get the judges to share their thought processes -- which most likely do include observations that we missed at least as often as we catch something they missed.

Here is my scoring of PCS for Mirai's short program:

SS: 8.5/ Good speed, decent edges, good use of one foot skating
T: 7.5/ Not sure on this one. I have trouble knowing what good transitions are, so I'll accept BOP's score
P: 8.75/ Very well-performed. She may have held back a little at the beginning.
C: 9.0/ Really well-choreographed with well-placed artistic elements like the Ina and split.
I: 9.0/ She has said how much she loves this music and it came through in her interpretation
Total: 34.2

jeb said:

I see Anna in that light. Because of her height and body type, she appears awkward and hunched all the time when she skates. She also need to smile one in a while-or at least remove her B*&^ face when she skates.

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I disagree, I don't think that there's anything wrong with Anna's posture (room for improvement is always there of course). I don't think that she appears awkward at all and she smiles when necessary.

gkelly said:

I'd much rather have a thread to share our own thoughts and discuss disagreements than to think of it as second guessing the judges or each other to prove that we're right and those who disagree are wrong.

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I so agree with you. No matter what we come up with, it´s not more right or more wrong than what the judges came up with + we have days, they had 3-4 minutes.

When I sit at the ice rink and take my notes, I often just memorize everything and then write it down after the skater left the ice. I always say, what stuck in your head, was what was good or bad. The other things were not important or better put, didn´t leave a mark and I won´t be surprised if judges work similar. Every second they look on their piece of paper or the computer screen (which highlights the elements also during the skate, its a live feed) will be a second they lose from the actual performance. While they can re-watch every element, the PC´s are what you see when it happens and not afterwards like with the elements when you tick the box from -3 to 3.

It´s simply impossible to let them re-watch the whole program again, to evaluate the PC´s, the ISU has tight schedules for scoring, plus the actual video is pretty small, as about 1/3 of the screen is blocked with the touch pad for scoring purposes and they got no sound either, it´s just the slow motion to see the take off at the jumps, the landings or the spins.

If they score the PC´s, a new page opens, in which each program component is explained in detail and what they have to score there.

Quite a lot of boxes to tick, + you have to present your reasoning on a piece of paper, all of this in a small window of time, nobody should think that is easy, if the crowd is cheering and you are distracted in your thought process. Judging is a tough job with a lot of responsibility, something many who complain seem to forget.

Not sure why anyone would smile during a Bolero. The same with Scheherazade which is a very interesting tale about a girl telling stories to a king for a thousand days in order for him to spare her life. I'm sure it's possible to find a part of the story to throw a flirty look toward the king but it's hardly required.

Honestly....why do so many programs become plagued with the smiley faces. It's one thing when a program calls for it....but I cringe at the idea that anyone is supposed to or required to smile while performing.

Blades of Passion said:

Regardless it would still be better than what we have now. As for "home advantage" one thing that can never be changed is the audience reaction. In at least some small way it will always have an impact, the roar of the crowd.

Given the way the judging works right now though, it's rather apparent that if Elena Radionova was the American Champion and Ashley Wagner was some skater from France who had never made the podium before, their placements at this competition probably would have swapped. The American crowd would have taken that ride on the Titanic and been blowing the rescue whistle for dear life, while the judges would have been frantically inflating those Program Component Scores like they were lifeboats. Same for Rika Hongo if she was an American Champ (Good Lord, they would have gone absolutely bonkers for Riverdance). Same for Pogorilaya and Miyahara.

Gracie Gold could have still been on the podium even, if Ashley wasn't American! They certainly gave her as many points as humanly possible for those performances and, as we just discovered, didn't even call her underrotated toeloop! Mao Asada is probably the only top 8 competitor who the judges wouldn't have given a medal, because she "blew it" in the Short Program.

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I can't imagine any crowd going crazy for Elena's horribly cheesy music. It's awful. I think she is adorable and wonderfully passionate but that music is inappropriate.

temadd said:

I can't imagine any crowd going crazy for Elena's horribly cheesy music. It's awful. I think she is adorable and wonderfully passionate but that music is inappropriate.

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Are you telling me that Mirai's FS program isnt cheesy? Or maybe even awful .... as you say of Lenok's Music.

Mirai's FS was a guilty pleasure for me but arguably for the wrong reasons

Sam-Skwantch said:

Are you telling me that Mirai's FS program isnt cheesy? Or maybe even awful .... as you say of Lenok's Music.

Mirai's FS was a guilty pleasure for me but arguably for the wrong reasons

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Isn't Ashley's program also somewhat cheesy?

I found how she interpreted the "Inside my heart is breaking. My make-up may be flaking" part to be extremely literal and cheesy although I did enjoy it. :dev2:

Figure skating is a judged sport. That means it is subjective. If scoring were objective, they'd only need to have one referee or umpire. The word "accurately" in the thread title is a misnomer. Judges are human beings, and human beings, like ourselves, are going to value different skating qualities and different performance qualities. Each person is going to score them differently.

I can't imagine why people are arguing and pretending that their opinion is the only accurate one, but to each his own.

Has anyone ever skated to "Don't Cry Out Loud" by Melissa Manchester? I know that we're kind of dealing with the top Ladies but, I'd love to see Mariah Bell give this song try. The way that she performs she may be the next Ashley Wagner when it comes to drama. I mean that is the best way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiXyAAw1Ek

YesWay said:

BoP, I like what you've done here... but generally speaking, if people are going to rescore stuff I'd like to see a lot more detail/justification than the brief comments you gave eg. which GoE bullet points you thought were met for each element, and referencing the criteria for each PCS component when making your comments.

This would lend far more credence to your scores, and be more educational... but of course would take a lot more time... so maybe focus on fewer skaters?

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It's true, a lot of my comments on the Elements and PCS in the first post(s) of the thread are not nearly as substantial as they could be. I was hoping to keep it more "reader friendly" and use this thread itself to discuss and compare the elements and components more thoroughly. In instances like Mirai's Short Program I did write more because I wanted to draw attention to a really good example of something the judging missed the boat on and how someone can have relatively weak skating skills, but still superb choreography and interpretation. We've lost so much of the idea of what great choreography and interpretation really is with CoP skating.