3Lz-3t/2A versus 2A-3t/3Lz? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

3Lz-3t/2A versus 2A-3t/3Lz?

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Certainly 3Lz+3T should be worth more than 2A+3T -- and it is. Now, should scoring of jump combinations reflect the difficulty of combining each two particular jumps in that order better than they do now. That would be ideal, if there could be a clean way to build in appropriate rewards for the difficulty of each possible combination, independent of what the skater is doing in the other jump passes of that program. Any suggestions?

Sounds like the difficulty is with 2-3 combinations as opposed to 3-2's, then also very fancy combinations e.g. Alina Zagitova's 3Lz-3Lo can only get a GOE bonus of 2.1 marks e.g. the same as a 2A-3T and even a solo 3T. However the proposed +/-5 GOEs and GOE bonuses based on percentages may come to the rescue to some extent.

Re the 2-3's you often get the suggestion on these pages for a 10% bonus for the -3Lo part of a -3Lo combination, and I would be in agreement with that. The -3Lo does seem very difficult to do straightaway, Alina is really the exception and even then she can make mistakes. Re a -3T, do we really want to start adding bonuses for these, they're fairly ubiquitous, and we may have to live with what we've got unless former experienced skaters can say exactly what marks they would give for the various 2-3T combinations (I haven't considered 3 part combos in my thoughts), and if they're more than say 0.5 marks different than what you get now then you might consider a separate table for these, but all the 3 part combos might be a bit too much.

Re fancy combinations it does seem a bit odd that the GOE is only based on the highest base value jump in the combination, and not a sum of the individual GOEs. I can only think this is because 'The Powers That Be' don't want it to be all about combinations which is what you might get if you summed them e.g. Alina's combination could get up to 4.2 points in GOE, and in a 50% +5 GOE world you'd be talking about 5.55 marks. Also the GOE marks for the jumping passes would be much higher than now. At the moment the max is 14.7 marks in 7 jumping passes - 7 lots of 2.1 with two 2-3 combos with or without a -1Lo-, but with 50% possible you'd be talking 22/23 marks with typical base value routines of 44-46 marks. Hence I can't think this would get a lot of traction, it really would be all about the jumps.

I did think about +50% for solo jumps, and 25% for combinations where you summed up the individual jumps, but it just didn't work. E.g. for the 2A-3T/3Lz and 3Lz-3T/2A example I got max scores of (7.6 + 1.9 + 6.0 + 3.0 = 18.5) for the former, and (10.3 + 2.57 + 3.3 + 1.65 = 17.82) for the latter i.e. the max difference of 0.6 at the moment due to the different GOEs became 0.68.

Also if you went to something like +30% max GOE across the board so that the max GOEs for jumping passes became about what it is now (45 base value * 0.3 = 13.5) you would lose all the benefit of the -5 GOEs for falls and so on that the move to +/-5 would give you (the idea seems to be that really well rewarded quads say give you the same marks or even more than you get now, but you're much more heavily penalised for falls etc.). This would disappear with the 30% max, even though the 2A-3T/3Lz problem would be completely solved. A 40% max system might be a reasonable compromise if it was worked out so that well executed jumps got the same marks as now, though the penalties for falls would be smaller - I'd go for -2 marks for a fall rather than 1, that might work out OK, but it's a difficult subject, and would need someone to really go through it with a mathematical fine tooth comb.
 

skatenewbie

Medalist
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Doing 2 2A-3T is basically same with doing 2 3-3T so its a smart strategy even though some could argue that 2A-3T is easier than 3-3T. But many people dont realize this and instead downplay skaters who dont have 3-3T in FS like Satoko in 15/16 season (she does 2 2A-3T)
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I agree with special bonus for 3-3lo combos and even 2-2lo-2lo. They are so rare. It's difficult to count even just 10 ladies who regulary landed them during many seasons these last 10 years.
 

Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Doing 2 2A-3T is basically same with doing 2 3-3T so its a smart strategy even though some could argue that 2A-3T is easier than 3-3T. But many people dont realize this and instead downplay skaters who dont have 3-3T in FS like Satoko in 15/16 season (she does 2 2A-3T)

Yes, it's a total nobrainer IMO, plus you can get an extra 1.2 marks in GOE for basically doing nothing, you're still doing the standard 7 triples and 2 double axels.

I actually think the smartest strategy is to do one 3-3T so that you don't get penalized for not having a triple-triple, then a 2A-3T if that's what you're good at (the extra 0.6 is always helpful), and then a final 2A, that can be replaced with a popped jump, or missed jump if you fall on the first jump of a combo, bit like Marin Honda did at Cup of China when she popped her opening 3F and replaced her final 2A with the 3F.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
What about 2A-3T + 3-2A? Sofia Samodurova in her FS at JGPF did 3lz-2T / 2A-3T / 3F-2A seq. So she could repeat 3lz and 3F, instead of 3lz or 3F and 3T like most of ladies . Is it smarter than two 3-3T + 2A-2-2 or 3-3T + 2A-3T + 3-2-2 ?
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
IMO doing something like 3F-2A makes absolutely no sense. In my opinion, doing +2A+SEQ is always a terrible idea for a "combo" pass. It's just a complete waste of points and you really should be able to jump a more optimal layout. I have my doubts about only one -3T combo jump even being worse than that.

My opinion is that everyone doing that is just making a mistake in program layout design.


Ah, right. And if you DO do a +2A+SEQ, please at least do it after a low scoring jump like 3S or another 2A, not a 3F.
 

Putina

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
+2A+SEQ do not look good, either. Neither do 1Lo combos. 3 jump combos are also terrible because by the time a skater hits the 3rd jump there is little to no speed left. All of these make the skater look clumsy, slow, laborious, or just ungraceful in general. I hope skaters stick to 2 jump combos.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Not all skaters have the same skills.

You can come up with layouts that add up to the highest base value, or that show the most difficulty (and/or variety) in ways that aren't reflected in base value under the current rules.

But that doesn't mean that every skater can execute that layout consistently and consistently well.

They can train to try to master harder combinations or more valuable combinations or more jumps in the bonus period etc.

But ultimately, they can only do what they can do. They're not robots. They each need to choose the elements that they can execute reliably and on which they're likely to earn the highest grades of execution. Planning a harder program, even if it includes only elements that they can execute successfully in isolation on practice ice, is no use to them if they're likely to lose points on GOEs (and base value if they underrotate) in real-life competition settings compared to easier elements that may not maximize base value but do maximize their individual ability to earn higher GOEs.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I've seen some beautifuls 3-2-2 and 2A-2-2. Especially with 2lo-2lo.

They each need to choose the elements that they can execute reliably and on which they're likely to earn the highest grades of execution. Planning a harder program, even if it includes only elements that they can execute successfully in isolation on practice ice, is no use to them if they're likely to lose points on GOEs (and base value if they underrotate) in real-life competition settings compared to easier elements that may not maximize base value but do maximize their individual ability to earn higher GOEs.

Yes. The hardest program doesn't mean the highest TES. Mao never got sky high TES. Easier elements can bring high scores.
 

Roast Toast

Medalist
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Am I taking crazy pills? If a skater does two 2A-3T they are penalized... because then they can't repeat both the lutz and the flip. Every woman needs a 3-3 for the short anyway, so it's not like athletes who can't do one are getting by. Things like two 2A-3T, or combos with the 1Lo are superficially attractive, but they can't really create optimal jump layouts when it comes to BV (you don't really want to repeat the 3T, you don't really want to be doing a 2A-2T combo like Maria S. or Ashley...)
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Am I taking crazy pills? If a skater does two 2A-3T they are penalized... because then they can't repeat both the lutz and the flip.
They can't if they do 3Lz-3T and 3F-3T either. That really has nothing to do with 2A-3T.

You can even do 2A-3Lo and 2A-3T with 3Lz-2Lo-2Lo or some such and then repeat 3Lo and 3Lz. Ta-da, still no need to 3-3 and you only lose 0.2 points in BV.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Am I taking crazy pills? If a skater does two 2A-3T they are penalized... because then they can't repeat both the lutz and the flip.

They can repeat lutz or flip. Because two 2A are allowed. Skaters can repeat two triples and doubles.
 

Roast Toast

Medalist
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
They can repeat lutz or flip. Because two 2A are allowed. Skaters can repeat two triples and doubles.

Yes, I know. I meant that with two triple toes, you can't repeat both the lutz AND the flip, which you want to do in an ideal world.

They can't if they do 3Lz-3T and 3F-3T either. That really has nothing to do with 2A-3T.

You can even do 2A-3Lo and 2A-3T with 3Lz-2Lo-2Lo or some such and then repeat 3Lo and 3Lz. Ta-da, still no need to 3-3 and you only lose 0.2 points in BV.

My point was that, in a free program, you have to look at the combinations as a whole, because they determine what jumps you can repeat. Doing the 2A-3T is nice, but it means you either have to bite the bullet and repeat the 3T, or -- as you say -- have a 3Lo combo, or do your other two combos with doubles. If you look at Miyahara's old layout, her combos were 2A-3T, 2A-3T, and 3Lz-2T-2Lo. Compare that to Osmond's layout: 3F-3T, 2A-3T, 2A-2T-2Lo. Disregarding repeating the lutz vs. the flip, while it is true that individually the 3F-3T is harder than 2A-3T, in return 2A-2T-2Lo is easier than 3Lz-2T-2Lo. The 3-3 is symbolically important, but if you want to match its BV you do need to make up the difference elsewhere.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Yes, I know. I meant that with two triple toes, you can't repeat both the lutz AND the flip, which you want to do in an ideal world.



My point was that, in a free program, you have to look at the combinations as a whole, because they determine what jumps you can repeat. Doing the 2A-3T is nice, but it means you either have to bite the bullet and repeat the 3T, or -- as you say -- have a 3Lo combo, or do your other two combos with doubles. If you look at Miyahara's old layout, her combos were 2A-3T, 2A-3T, and 3Lz-2T-2Lo. Compare that to Osmond's layout: 3F-3T, 2A-3T, 2A-2T-2Lo. Disregarding repeating the lutz vs. the flip, while it is true that individually the 3F-3T is harder than 2A-3T, in return 2A-2T-2Lo is easier than 3Lz-2T-2Lo. The 3-3 is symbolically important, but if you want to match its BV you do need to make up the difference elsewhere.

Marginally - For skaters at this level, 3-2-2 and 2A-2-2 are essentially as easy. 3-3 is the real hurdle there.

Obviously, it currently isn't necessary or necessarily smart to even do 3-3 in the FS when you can just 2A-3T instead, which isn't something I'm fond of.

Osmond's and Miyahara's layouts for example are the same BV to me, disregarding the F repeat instead of Lutz. I don't think of individual jumping passes so much as what slots are able to be used in what manner. There are very few spots where you can actually make a difference without going into 3Lo combos. The only other mixup is the 3-1-3 combo.
 
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