2018 Europeans Ladies FS

kevinVchicago said:

Sorry, what does FF mean? [emoji23] Would you tell me what you mean by artistry? Like for example, do you think Rajicova has more artistry than Medvedeva? I'm just curious because we have different perspectives.

I watched the whole competition and I was particularly impressed with the artistry of Micol Cristini and Loena Hendrickx.

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FF = fast forward

For artistry, I guess I'm more biased towards a more subtle interpretation of music, and innate musicality. Not something that needs a wave of the arm, or a kick of the leg to a beat. Not excessively emoting, but immersion in the music. Let the whole skating do the talking more than just the face. I particularly like it when someone interprets the underlying tone of the music, instead of just dancing to the notes -- when calmness emanates from an skater skating to Meditation of Thais.

Another thing I like is when dancers (just because you said "artistry") pick up on the subtler parts of the music -- like when there's a clear violin-based rhythm you could follow, but there's perhaps a piano playing in the background to which you move instead.

I just find subtlety to be a more tasteful performing style skating -- draw me in, don't reach out to me. Skaters who can do that have an automatic presence on the ice as far as I'm concerned.

And maybe it's unfair, but I also prefer a calmer approach to skating, with better edges, more flow, than cramming everything with transitions.

chopinskate said:

FF = fast forward

For artistry, I guess I'm more biased towards a more subtle interpretation of music. Not something that needs a wave of the arm, or a kick of the leg to a beat. Not excessively emoting, but immersion in the music. Let the whole skating do the talking more than just the face. I particularly like it when someone interprets the underlying tone of the music, instead of just dancing to the notes -- when calmness emanates from an skater skating to Meditation of Thais.

Another thing I like is when dancers (just because you said "artistry") pick up on the subtler parts of the music -- like when there's a clear violin-based rhythm you could follow, but there's perhaps a piano playing in the background to which you move instead.

I just find subtlety to be a more tasteful performing style skating -- draw me in, don't reach out to me. Skaters who can do that have an automatic presence on the ice as far as I'm concerned.

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Thanks for this reply! It's so interesting to me, especially because I am curious to get to the bottom of the Kostner vs Medvedeva/Zagitova debate. It seems to dominate the forum and can become so ugly. I've also become very curious about what GS members mean when they talk about performance, artistry, expression, etc, because sometimes I feel like I am speaking a different language.

We share a lot of preferences in common, because I love P/C very, very much and I also have a lot of favorites out of Asia. Do you have any thoughts on Rajicova vs Medvedeva in terms of artistry?

Blades of Passion said:

There is no inconsistency from me when it comes to the calls for Murakami, Karen, or Hongo over the years that I feel are wrong. I've specifically shown on countless occasions their rotations and exactly why the panel called it wrong, I use the exact same method every time for every skater.

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Its not the problem in your method and viewing the skaters through that method. The problem is in the fact that your method about rotations, composition score or other PCS scores is not the one ISU implement in their own methods and judges are using while judging. FS has just different recommendations for the judging than the one you are using here.... (for example, i think that winner of track & field long jump should be the one which average score of 6 jumps is the best. But the winner is the one who jumps the longest, even that one jump is the only one valid jump in whole competition. So, like the ISU they have their own methods to decide the winner, which they as sports organization chose to use).

kevinVchicago said:

Thanks for this reply! It's so interesting to me, especially because I am curious to get to the bottom of the Kostner vs Medvedeva/Zagitova debate. It seems to dominate the forum and can become so ugly. I've also become very curious about what GS members mean when they talk about performance, artistry, expression, etc, because sometimes I feel like I am speaking a different language.

We share a lot of preferences in common, because I love P/C very, very much and I also have a lot of favorites out of Asia. Do you have any thoughts on Rajicova vs Medvedeva in terms of artistry?

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I watched this performance of Rajicova: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJkDJXJi0Q

It's interesting to me. I won't say who's the "better" artist, because I can't. Rajicova embodies the music alright there, where Medvedeva doesn't really do that for either of her programmes this season. She's calm where the music is calm, and has more expressiveness in her skating itself. That said, she has zero face -- I don't think that's good. She also doesn't commit to all her movements -- a stretch of an arm is just that, without completing a classic line with the neck, the torso and head. The movements match the music, but could be more full, more intricate. Medvedeva commits to her choreography-- no matter how ugly I find her positions. Same with her face -- I find them overblown, but she still performs.

Another thing is ease of movement and difficulty -- Rajicova does simpler movement with ease, whereas Medvedeva does difficult movement in a laboured manner.

Musicality -- Rajicova is alright. Medvedeva -- again, look at her step sequences.

I think it's a subtle blend of everything. Which leads me to another thing with the PCS -- I don't think the five categories can be judged separately. They all affect each other.

Since you prefer many skaters out of Asia as well, perhaps one thing can be considered is a (cross-continental) cultural aspect of performance. What sells in North America probably won't sell too well in Europe or Asia. Since we share preferences, maybe Asian skaters (who definitely have more of a subtle, and IMO more complete, approach to skating) speak more to us? There are certainly people who like more into facial expressiveness like Medvedeva's, and there are others who like spectacles.

@Sam-Skwantch thanks for your measured replies and engaging in a good discussion with me, BTW. I've seen some ugly discussions, even on this very thread.

qwertyskates said:

No one says that any Russian skater will be inherently better at ballet, but no one can deny that ballet is a state art in Russia, many famous ballets are of Russian origin by Russian composers, Russian ballet, Russian ballet companies and ballet performers are renown internationally. So I am saying that when it comes to ballet, the Russians know what they are doing.

And who said Alina is "being represented as one of the greatest artistic skaters of all time"?

Please show me the evidence.

What is extremely irritating is to see people putting up strawmen and their own PROJECTIONS onto her in order to attack her or take her down a notch - eg. like this post of yours that Alina is being hailed as the greatest artistic skater, other posters state that Alina thinks she has reached the pinnacle of skating when she receives high PCS, and so will rest on her laurels and quit after winning OGM, therefore she should not receive high PCS etc. etc.

Truth is we DON'T KNOW what Alina thinks except what she says in interviews. She comes across as HUMBLE and HARDWORKING, no gloating about coronation, no basking in the limelight, etc.

It should be pointed out that Yuzuru had a higher rise than Alina in PCS in the year leading up to Sochi and after OGM, DID NOT REST ON HIS LAURELS or RETIRE.

PCS also tend to rise and fall according to different performances. Eg Denis Ten

So this line of "reason" and "logic" is simply fallacious, as many skating prodigies, WR holders and OGMs have continued to push the sport throughout their long careers AFTER receiving record PCS.

One is entitled to one's opinion of course that the hundred or so judges and tech specialists of the dozen competitions who gave her the gold from JGP, JGPF, World Junior to GP, GPF to European championship for the past two years over several quads are all WRONG and the few detractors on internet forum or media commentators who took toilet breaks during her performances are right.

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She's being represented as such by her scores. It's something that matters more than what anybody has to say about her..

If anything is a strawmen's argument it's the paragraph of yours. I understand some people can be nasty against top skaters but I haven't. Most of this thread hasn't. Pointing out her weaknesses to demonstrate why this kinda of judging is awful is not attacking her. Alina is literally getting all-time highest PCS. That is the score that commentators and skating media portrays as the 'artistic mark'. That is an issue that is worth discussing and you're derailing it by making this discussion seem like a personal campaign against the girl.

And for pete's sake: Russian people probably know ballet better than others. That fact is not at all parallel in Russian skating. Unless you were implying that top Russian skaters are inherently more well-versed and skilled at ballet (strongly disagree), then what was that supposed to add to a discussion about Alina's skating? 'They know what they're doing' isn't applicable when none of 'what they're doing' has any bearing on if this final product is good or bad.

begin said:

She's being represented as such by her scores. It's something that matters more than what anybody has to say about her..

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But she was not being represented only by those scores (and skaters dont represent themselves only by their scores)..In this season she was getting from 7,5 to 9,5 (and i really dont see a problem why ladies cant get 9+ when all the other categories in skating get it, even more easily and with more worse performances)... Also, if you read recommendations of PCS judging, you will easily see that they dont tend to distinguish who is more artistic skater, they just marks who performs better on a competition day. What is more artistic is left to our personal opinion (as it should be) and we can personally enjoy in the things we prefer more, no matters how they have been scored. Cause the point of artistic is to enjoy in it, and not to be judged objectively when it is something purely subjective.

begin said:

She's being represented as such by her scores. It's something that matters more than what anybody has to say about her..

If anything is a strawmen's argument it's the paragraph of yours. I understand some people can be nasty against top skaters but I haven't. Most of this thread hasn't. Pointing out her weaknesses to demonstrate why this kinda of judging is awful is not attacking her. Alina is literally getting all-time highest PCS. That is the score that commentators and skating media portrays as the 'artistic mark'. That is an issue that is worth discussing and you're derailing it by making this discussion seem like a personal campaign against the girl.

And for pete's sake: Russian people probably know ballet better than others. That fact is not at all parallel in Russian skating. Unless you were implying that top Russian skaters are inherently more well-versed and skilled at ballet (strongly disagree), then what was that supposed to add to a discussion about Alina's skating? 'They know what they're doing' isn't applicable when none of 'what they're doing' has any bearing on if this final product is good or bad.

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You do realize that it's the judges who are giving her the PCS, it's not something Alina claimed for herself, that she is "one of the most artistic" skater out there? While PCS CAN go higher because of artistry, the criteria are clear - SS, TR, CH, IN, etc. She definitely has mind-boggling transitions instead of lots of crossovers, she has intricate choreography and she expresses very well to the music. Many of us SEE that. Someone else may prefer another style, another type, etc. but it doesn't mean she lacks artistry. It just isn't your type of artistry, just like Misha's isn't my type, I prefer Deniss', but I'm fine with judges giving him higher PCS.

For example, many think that her PCS should drop simply because of backloading!

Again, this is even contradictory to ISU criteria about the meaning of balance and obviously rewarding jumps in the 2nd half means that is considered desirable.

So just admit it is one's preference and not some objective truth.

Finally, someone else described clearly the effect of a burst of fireworks when the Adagio part of the pas de deux ended and the Variations Solo jumps and fouettes of Don Quixote commenced as in the ballet.

And no, there is no such thing as "even distribution of elements in a performance = balance".

Balance also means inclusivity of elements, eg a balanced diet must include A,B,C,D but you can eat it like this D,B,A,C, or a heavy breakfast, lunch, tea and skip dinner as long as you get all your nutrients and calories. Balanced diet doesn't mean the nutrients and calories must be consumed evenly throughout the day.

In fact, performances can be ANYTHING, it can be evenly paced, unevenly paced, slow, fast, with or without climax - it is up to the music and choreography.

Don Quixote music to the Pas de Deux is very clear - Entree, Adagio, Variations, Coda. It starts slower and climaxes at the end. It would be wrong not to follow the structure of the music composition and the elements should be matched to the music. The Russians know this, they know ballet.

Frankly, ballet goers look forward to the thrill of this finale as the dancers showcase their most jaw-dropping technical and artistic skills. Some might opine that the jumps by Baryshnikov resemble a "circus" but millions of ballet goers don't see it the same way.

The majority applaud wildly for those superhuman jumps towards the end. For them, the cluster of jumps is the highlight.

For me, even though I love watching Caro beautiful elegant forms, it is still a sport. Higher, faster, stronger. I am as thrilled about Kolyada's perfect 4lz as a thing of beauty as the cluster of fireworks of non-stop triples in Alina's program. No skater, male or female has achieved this same feat, past, present, or possibly even future when Alina outgrows it and it is difficult to find the program or skater to repeat this achievement. it is like watching a teenage girl wonder on the barre like Nadia Comaneci's perfect 10s, girls airborne on half pipes or snowboarding stunts never seen before. Her coaches weren't fist-pumping, Danii and Sergei just shook their heads and smiled...they couldn't believe she did it again and again. The most difficult feat of the whole competition almost flawlessly performed.

At the level of sublimity a skill transcends into art. Like Nadia's perfect 10s performances.

I'm sure there were folks who didn't think she deserved it even back then, "what, does it mean the sport has hit its ceiling, does she think she's all that? 10s? She must be resting on her laurels since there's nothing left to push, perfection has been achieved!" etc. and those who think it resembles circus acrobatics than "art".

Those people can always take the opportunity to grab a coke and sandwich rather than subject themselves to the atrocity.

Alina Zagitova, Don Quixote& Russian Ballet:hap85:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN-KnVEA_kA
Russian ballet is 250 years old, the ISU - 125.

frallik said:

Alina Zagitova, Don Quixote& Russian Ballet:hap85:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN-KnVEA_kA
Russian ballet is 250 years old, the ISU - 125.

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If you're going to post a link, post a classic one, not dubious collages.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M1xcXoPAtOA

Sam-Skwantch said:

Your link got messed up so I’m reposting it below. Thanks for sharing this with us...it’s very interesting and well performed. It definitely adds perspective to the discussion.

Link 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmh6N7khs8

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Alina Zagitova, Don Quixote & Russian Ballet -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN-KnVEA_kA&t=4s

frallik said:

Alina Zagitova, Don Quixote & Russian Ballet -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN-KnVEA_kA&t=4s

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The first prima was so flawlessly in time with the music for her fouettes!

And the male principal from Mariinsky's a la secondes!


I think the point of the video is to show Alina's interpretation vs the Ballet's. I won't engage in the discussion again, and instead say this -- ballet has a specific quality of movement, a specific line, and a specific maturity and performance quality. While Alina's jumping in the end might itself be art, I'd love to see her do the Don Quixote program 4 years down the line. No doubt she might not be able to do the backloading, but there were music cues throughout the program which can be used for jumps. Maybe she can produce a true ballet on ice -- even in the link you'll notice that the fast music isn't just used for jetes, but rather just quick movement in general. How much more beautiful will the skating be if all these things are developed in her, and she does a fast paced step sequence, with jumps before and after? With excitement throughout the program, instead of the latter 2 minutes?

I also leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

frallik said:

Alina Zagitova, Don Quixote & Russian Ballet -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN-KnVEA_kA&t=4s

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It is a good idea but I wish the collage is matching more specifically to Alina's steps and choreography, so one can see why the Charlotte is a great element to include, how her jump and spin sequence match the dynamic, fiery character of the original.

I agree that with maturity she will perform even better, but a few points to consider:

1. She can't do the same balletic positions and extensions because the level 4 requirements for stsq/chsq oblige her to pack a lot of steps and turns into a certain time limit. To maximize her scores, she needs to do difficult steps and move quickly across the ice, leaving no time or room to fully express positions from the original ballet.

The only mystery for me is the end pose, I wonder why Alina doesn't do that famous knelt version of Kitri?

I would love to see an exhibition version of DQ which showcases more Kitri in her true version one day. :luv17:

2. Extensions need to be done in a stationery position, and usually with a partner's support. Alina has to constantly move across the ice which requires her to bend her knees and torso, especially when she needs to pick up speed doing crossovers. This isn't something required in ballet, to glide on the stage, and the stable stage floor is used as a springboard for a lot of balletic movements, in contrast to an almost frictionless icefloor. Speed and movement across the rink are qualities that Alina will be judged for, so she needs to prioritize them over faithfulness to the original ballet. In her more stationery moments, eg spins, ina bauers, illusions, her limbs and torso are straight and fully extended. In her SP, I believe the broken lines are intentional to go with the chaotic violin segment when she descended into madness.

3. She is performing to PdD music but as a soloist, using skating vocabulary with ballet elements included, so it is more of an inspired piece than an accurate ballet portrayal.

For me, it is about the entire experience, and I love how a famous ballet has been interpreted so well on ice! John Curry skated to DQ too, but he mixed up all the musical segments of the PdD, and he placed the jumping segment earlier in the program. While he was a beautiful skater, it was dissonant for me as I understand the purpose and effect for the music and choreography in the ballet, so watching it jumbled up was a little surreal...akin to hearing the famous Beethoven 5th opening spliced and placed in the middle!

qwertyskates said:

whole post

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one of those rare moments when i wish i could put two thumb ups! :agree:

kevinVchicago said:

Do you have any thoughts on Rajicova vs Medvedeva in terms of artistry?

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Actually, I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLPIi8K_Uzs&feature=youtu.be&t=32s

And Rajicova is definitely a lot better than in the previous one here. But I just... don't care? Doesn't really engage me. Med still is able to pull my eye.

chopinskate said:

Actually, I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLPIi8K_Uzs&feature=youtu.be&t=32s

And Rajicova is definitely a lot better than in the previous one here. But I just... don't care? Doesn't really engage me. Med still is able to pull my eye.

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I've seen Rajicova a lot over the years as she's always been there sort of on the fringes. This one is my favorite performance of hers.

kevinVchicago said:

I've seen Rajicova a lot over the years as she's always been there sort of on the fringes. This one is my favorite performance of hers.

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It's definitely better than her LP, and she performs a lot better and shows commitment and musicality. It's just... something I can't always place my finger on that doesn't make me care too much about certain skaters (artists in general).

I watched the ladies FS, and then showed it to my mother - both of us are casual fans, but for a very long time.

My mother's take was interesting. She said about Alina "this one looks like a pupil, not a professional". She liked Medvedeva better, but marginally so.

I liked Rajicova the best, at least there was some genuine emotion and connection to the music. Surprisingly, I didn't like Kostner FS (I thought she used to perform much better, e.g. in Sochi - was she injured, or maybe just gotten older?). I didn't connect to Alina or Medvedeva at all. If this is what is currently "the best" in female skaters, the sport is in a very poor shape indeed. JMHO.

For us, as casual life-long fans, it's not about this technical jump or that one - it's about the overall "feel" of the program, how well the skater looks on ice, and how emotionally moving is their artistry.

In comparison to ladies, I thought US men looked much more artistic than any ladies (both Russian and American). Which is very strange, LOL.