2018 Europeans Ladies FS

[qwertyskates]

As you said, those moves have been incorporated very thoroughly into the sport for years. They are figure skating moves in their own right.

You know that's not what I'm talking about w Alina. And if you're implying that Russian skaters are inherently better at ballet? Miss me with that.



Said 15 year old is being represented as one of the greatest artistic skaters of all time. It's stupid. We're gonna keep talking about how and why it's stupid.

No one says that any Russian skater will be inherently better at ballet, but no one can deny that ballet is a state art in Russia, many famous ballets are of Russian origin by Russian composers, Russian ballet, Russian ballet companies and ballet performers are renown internationally. So I am saying that when it comes to ballet, the Russians know what they are doing.

And who said Alina is "being represented as one of the greatest artistic skaters of all time"?

Please show me the evidence.

What is extremely irritating is to see people putting up strawmen and their own PROJECTIONS onto her in order to attack her or take her down a notch - eg. like this post of yours that Alina is being hailed as the greatest artistic skater, other posters state that Alina thinks she has reached the pinnacle of skating when she receives high PCS, and so will rest on her laurels and quit after winning OGM, therefore she should not receive high PCS etc. etc.

Truth is we DON'T KNOW what Alina thinks except what she says in interviews. She comes across as HUMBLE and HARDWORKING, no gloating about coronation, no basking in the limelight, etc.

It should be pointed out that Yuzuru had a higher rise than Alina in PCS in the year leading up to Sochi and after OGM, DID NOT REST ON HIS LAURELS or RETIRE.

PCS also tend to rise and fall according to different performances. Eg Denis Ten

So this line of "reason" and "logic" is simply fallacious, as many skating prodigies, WR holders and OGMs have continued to push the sport throughout their long careers AFTER receiving record PCS.

One is entitled to one's opinion of course that the hundred or so judges and tech specialists of the dozen competitions who gave her the gold from JGP, JGPF, World Junior to GP, GPF to European championship for the past two years over several quads are all WRONG and the few detractors on internet forum or media commentators who took toilet breaks during her performances are right.

 

[russianfan]

One is entitled to one's opinion of course that the hundred or so judges and tech specialists of the dozen competitions who gave her the gold from JGP, JGPF, World Junior to GP, GPF to European championship for the past two years over several quads are all WRONG and the few detractors on internet forum or media commentators who took toilet breaks during her performances are right.

this, 100 times :agree:

 

[Blades of Passion]

You making calls based upon your own scientific process is fine, as your opinion is something you're definitely entitled to. But it's just one of many opinions. And it's so weird because for each staunch condemnation of URs not called you seem to negate it defending skaters like Murakami and Karen's URs. So there's a distinct lack of consistency and that is probably attributable to inevitable bias that we all have. You think Karen's jumps are "fine" and Medvedeva's jumps are UR

There is no inconsistency from me when it comes to the calls for Murakami, Karen, or Hongo over the years that I feel are wrong. I've specifically shown on countless occasions their rotations and exactly why the panel called it wrong, I use the exact same method every time for every skater. Somehow the idea of the judges being wrong is unthinkable to you (unless it's in relation to a Canadian skater getting less than they deserve), despite how it's been proven over and over and over. Just like certain judges, you have decided to target these ladies, and instead of looking closer you continue to place that label. It's quite interesting indeed how these ladies have been direct competition to Canadian ladies over the years and your attacks against them have curiously been very convenient towards them being held down, clearing a path for the Canadians. Starting with 2012 Skate Canada where Osmond won the competition because of phantom underrotation calls thrown at Kanako Murakami.

Yes there are other opinions out there, but I have yet to see any opinions more well-reasoned than mine on this topic. I don't see the majority of tech specialists studying jump physics and rotations as I have, nor does the ISU have any established system in place for these judgements that make sense. The ISU is operating on a very superficial level and people don't want to talk about it or admit it, because they are scared of ever showing a lack of control or possibility of wrongdoing. Almost nobody understands the issue in the first place, allowing it to remain in the dark so easily.

Nor have I ever said Karen's jumps are always fine or Med's are always UR, you're making a false statement there. Karen has better technique than Medvedeva for how jumps should be executed ideally, but of course it's possible she can make mistakes. But then so too can Med make mistakes, yet she does not get called for hers. And it's quite insulting to anyone when you spot a blatant problem that gets continually overlooked.

 

[chopinskate]

What happens if Zagi sticks around after this season and improves the PCS side of skating? Will she get straight 80?

 

[MiRé]

Hmm...I don’t really look at the second mark as being an artistic mark. To me it’s relating the technical moves in the field to the music. I’m actually pretty happy to see the trend of the sport moving away from the 6.0 days and more towards an athletic endevour. YMMV but the less subjective the better for me. Love Caro but seeing her bad performances held up with high PCS is really triggering me a bit. I love the girl but when she is off the numbers need to reflect it. People out perform her and the marks often don’t reflect it but rather stay pretty consistent. The TES can drop pretty drastically for bad performances but often not the PCS. It’s clearly time to reduce it’s influence and the ISU seems to recognize this and has begun slowly erasing the “artistic” aspect of it.

Maybe if they started awarding medals for Gala performances people would be happier.

Hmm. I think the opposite. I think we're actually going back to 6.0 era where the "judges" decide the winners, and where the "judges" disregard important qualities of the jumps (e.g. ignoring UR and Edge calls).

 

[Shayuki]

What happens if Zagi sticks around after this season and improves the PCS side of skating? Will she get straight 80?

She will probably get like 65 next season because the Olympic season will be over and the cycle will begin anew. GOEs should get toned down as well. Indeed, it makes no sense. Come to think of it, that also means that this season will probably be Zagitova's chance to have PBs - even WRs - because it's very possible she will not be at such a high level 3, 4 years from now.

 

[Globetrotter]

She will probably get like 65 next season because the Olympic season will be over and the cycle will begin anew. GOEs should get toned down as well. Indeed, it makes no sense. Come to think of it, that also means that this season will probably be Zagitova's chance to have PBs - even WRs - because it's very possible she will not be at such a high level 3, 4 years from now.

Oh dear. This really is odd, in how scoring of execution is seasonal and PCS is inflating and deflating with major competition fever states. No wonder people like my mum was completely dumbfounded by the scoring and results.

 

[Miss Ice]

I agree that the sport is becoming more of a PCS contest + shady scoring on the TES, where UR jumps and wrong edges get +GOE. Also, Carolina is literally the ONLY skater besides the (undeservedly so) Russians and Osmond who gets PCS "boosts". Satoko gets it to a lesser degree, but both she and Carolina actually do have really good SS/performance/interpretation. Not so sure about the others.

What happens if Zagi sticks around after this season and improves the PCS side of skating? Will she get straight 80?

She'll start getting 11.00's in PCS.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Carolina doesn't even perform once she melts down, though...

 

[frallik]

It was reeeeeeeeeally good on Saturday, though. IJS
HAHAHA

I was there. It's better not to see Zagitiva live. She coudn't make a mistake, it's impossible in principle. Red tutu corset embroidered with gold lace and long murderous gloves covering the forearms have become her second skin. A fireball with incredible speed moved over the ice. Molten core miraculously doesn't leave the space held by the spectators' magnetic field density. Passionate baby faced Beast uncontrollable by her Creators escaped to freedom in search of blood...

Delicate scarlet to the finale literally oozing crimson ichor of vanquished opponents... Alina's cutting thin flaps of the ice flooring between the short sides of arena. The viewer's attention flickered between them like in ping-pong. It seemed that from jump to jump it takes a split second.
:http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1516646256/b396770a/20264910.jpg:eeking:

 

[chopinskate]

And it's quite insulting to anyone when you spot a blatant problem that gets continually overlooked.

It's also demeaning to anyone who does it in the proper way and gets the same (or lower) credit.

Carolina doesn't even perform once she melts down, though...

For sure she should have a lot lower PCS in this competition. I just think that there should be a "room for improvement" side to the PCS. Even Carolina at her best isn't perfect, and I find her PE to be pretty boring. Her FS choreography isn't my favourite. Zagitova's edges aren't that good, and she is an immature performer (PE) who hasn't yet developed an innate sense of musicality (IN). That's three categories in the PCS for which she shouldn't be scoring more than an 8. Backloading makes an unbalanced program, so that's the choreogrpahy part. Medvedeva isn't that good at SS, either, and I can best describe her PE as overwrought and her IN as annoying.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

For sure she should have a lot lower PCS in this competition. I just think that there should be a "room for improvement" side to the PCS. Even Carolina at her best isn't perfect, and I find her PE to be pretty boring. Her FS choreography isn't my favourite. Zagitova's edges aren't that good, and she is an immature performer (PE) who hasn't yet developed an innate sense of musicality (IN). That's three categories in the PCS for which she shouldn't be scoring more than an 8. Backloading makes an unbalanced program, so that's the choreogrpahy part. Medvedeva isn't that good at SS, either, and I can best describe her PE as overwrought and her IN as annoying.

You really would benefit if you would free yourself of bias when assessing scores. Besides that...I’m not sure if you’ve discussed a single technical detail used under IJS rules when awarding actual PCS. If you truly think you are right and all of the judges are wrong why not sign up to take a course and start judging at local competitions. Sometimes spending hours watching skaters earn 2’s and 3’s can add a perspective and you’ll stop saying things like...”her skating skills aren’t that good” and “her interpretation annoys me”. A good judge sees beyond that stuff and scores the skills.

 

[chopinskate]

You really would benefit if you would free yourself of bias when assessing scores. Besides that...I’m not sure if you’ve discussed a single technical detail used under IJS rules when awarding actual PCS. If you truly think you are right and all of the judges are wrong why not sign up to take a course and start judging at local competitions. Sometimes spending hours watching skaters earn 2’s and 3’s can add a perspective and you’ll stop saying things like...”her skating skills aren’t that good” and “her interpretation annoys me”. A good judge sees beyond that stuff and scores the skills.

I'm not a judge? And I'm not biased, in this case -- I don't care for any of the top 3 (or, really, a single skater who participated in this event), yet believe the top two should've been the top 2 and were in the right order. This competition wasn't the most competitive, IMO. I'm stating an opinion, and I do believe there should be room for improvement here. I am not aware of protocols for PCS; if there are any, please tell me where I can find them. Until then, yes, PCS is definitely more of a subjective criteria, and therefore Evgenia's interpretation can be judged as "annoying" and Alina's performance can be judged as "immature". I also do believe it is clear that the skating skills are issues for both Evgenia and Alina (her edges aren't good enough indicators for you?) and that backloading is a real issue that should affect choreographic scores. All of these things I did state in that post.


Nowhere did I say that I know better than judges, nor that I am right and all the judges are wrong. Those were your own conclusions from my writing. It is not clear to me why they're earning as much as they are in PCS. I do reserve the right to question the scores, especially when the choreographic content of these two skaters has very little to do with the music at times (look at Evgenia's FS step sequence, for instance).

And skating skills are skills in PCS. A judge shouldn't look past them to score the "skills".


ETA: I also don't think "judge a local competition" is a good suggestion (though that was clearly rhetorical and sarcastic), nor is it a good argument (and I use "argument" very lightly there). Just because skaters get 2s or 3s in local competitions doesn't mean these skaters should get 9.5s. I could get 100s in exams in my high school, and yet get just 60s in university. Maybe their coaches should help them actually get those scores in a competition as big as the Euros, or the Worlds, or the (soon-to-come) Olympics. It shouldn't be compared to what local skaters get.

 

[kevinVchicago]

I was there. It's better not to see Zagitiva live. She coudn't make a mistake, it's impossible in principle. Red tutu corset embroidered with gold lace and long murderous gloves covering the forearms have become her second skin. A fireball with incredible speed moved over the ice. Molten core miraculously doesn't leave the space held by the spectators' magnetic field density. Passionate baby faced Beast uncontrollable by her Creators escaped to freedom in search of blood...

Delicate scarlet to the finale literally oozing crimson ichor of vanquished opponents... Alina's cutting thin flaps of the ice flooring between the short sides of arena. The viewer's attention flickered between them like in ping-pong. It seemed that from jump to jump it takes a split second.
:http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1516646256/b396770a/20264910.jpg:eeking:

Amazing [emoji173]

 

[chopinskate]

I was there. It's better not to see Zagitiva live. She coudn't make a mistake, it's impossible in principle. Red tutu corset embroidered with gold lace and long murderous gloves covering the forearms have become her second skin. A fireball with incredible speed moved over the ice. Molten core miraculously doesn't leave the space held by the spectators' magnetic field density. Passionate baby faced Beast uncontrollable by her Creators escaped to freedom in search of blood...

Delicate scarlet to the finale literally oozing crimson ichor of vanquished opponents... Alina's cutting thin flaps of the ice flooring between the short sides of arena. The viewer's attention flickered between them like in ping-pong. It seemed that from jump to jump it takes a split second.
:http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1516646256/b396770a/20264910.jpg:eeking:

That was really quite poetic! I hope Alina sticks around for another season and gets better programs and improves her skating, because she has potential.

 

[kevinVchicago]

And I'm not biased, in this case -- I don't care for any of the top 3 (or, really, a single skater who participated in this event)

You don't care for any of the 40 ladies in this competition? Do you dislike European skaters in general? Must have been a long day for you. [emoji23] I don't love American skating, but I still adore Bell, Nagasu, and others.

 

[chopinskate]

You don't care for any of the 40 ladies in this competition? Do you dislike European skaters in general? Must have been a long day for you. [emoji23] I don't love American skating, but I still adore Bell, Nagasu, and others.

I don't dislike European skaters -- I love skaters with an artistic bent, but are still good with the athletic side, which isn't what the top European ladies currently offer for me (apart from the ever-finicky Carolina). I love skaters like Kostornaia, and I love skaters like Tsurskaya, whose artistry does need work, but her delayed jumps add some art to the skating. I also like Aliev and Javi on the men's side (but I didn't get around to watching most of the men's event), and P/C from dance. And Savchenko/Massot.

Apart from them and Karen Chen, Nathan Chen and the Shibs (and entertainers like Jimmy Ma), I think all my favourites are from Asia.

I didn't watch the whole event. It's easy to FF/skip when you get bored.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm not a judge? And I'm not biased, in this case -- I don't care for any of the top 3 (or, really, a single skater who participated in this event), yet believe the top two should've been the top 2 and were in the right order. This competition wasn't the most competitive, IMO. I'm stating an opinion, and I do believe there should be room for improvement here. I am not aware of protocols for PCS; if there are any, please tell me where I can find them. Until then, yes, PCS is definitely more of a subjective criteria, and therefore Evgenia's interpretation can be judged as "annoying" and Alina's performance can be judged as "immature". I also do believe it is clear that the skating skills are issues for both Evgenia and Alina (her edges aren't good enough indicators for you?) and that backloading is a real issue that should affect choreographic scores. All of these things I did state in that post.


Nowhere did I say that I know better than judges, nor that I am right and all the judges are wrong. Those were your own conclusions from my writing. It is not clear to me why they're earning as much as they are in PCS. I do reserve the right to question the scores, especially when the choreographic content of these two skaters has very little to do with the music at times (look at Evgenia's FS step sequence, for instance).

And skating skills are skills in PCS. A judge shouldn't look past them to score the "skills".


ETA: I also don't think "judge a local competition" is a good suggestion (though that was clearly rhetorical and sarcastic), nor is it a good argument (and I use "argument" very lightly there). Just because skaters get 2s or 3s in local competitions doesn't mean these skaters should get 9.5s. I could get 100s in exams in my high school, and yet get just 60s in university. Maybe their coaches should help them actually get those scores in a competition as big as the Euros, or the Worlds, or the (soon-to-come) Olympics. It shouldn't be compared to what local skaters get.

I’m just going to assume you aren’t involved with local competitions , skaters, or coaches. It’s fine actually and I don’t think anyone needs qualifications to discuss this stuff on the boards.

FYI: There is clearly spelled out guidelines for awarding PCS. I only point this out to you because you don’t seem to understand or just chose to ignore the way these points are awarded by judges.

http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...ram-component-chart-sandp-and-id-08-16-1/file

Now you’ll notice under composition (you called it Choreography) there is nothing about backloading. In fact the only rule related is the bonus invented to prevent front loading but that is dealt with in TES and not spelled out in any PCS. You’ll also notice under Interpretation the word annoying won’t be found. The criteria is much more detailed...things like movement of steps in time with music, use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music. These are things that all three medalists accel at. In fact...going even further I’d argue Zhenya and Alina both exceed the requirements for scoring 9.0’s in Skating Skills. You see where I’m going with this....

It’s ok to criticize results and even though it’s futile...it’s going to work in your advantage to understand why and how they get the scores they do. I get that you don’t like them...that doesn’t mean you still can respect their efforts.

 

[chopinskate]

I’m just going to assume you aren’t involved with local competitions , skaters, or coaches. It’s fine actually and I don’t think anyone needs qualifications to discuss this stuff on the boards.

FYI: There is clearly spelled out guidelines for awarding PCS. I only point this out to you because you don’t seem to understand or just chose to ignore the way these points are awarded by judges.

http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...ram-component-chart-sandp-and-id-08-16-1/file

Now you’ll notice under composition (you called it Choreography) there is nothing about backloading. In fact the only rule related is the bonus invented to prevent front loading but that is dealt with in TES and not spelled out in any PCS. You’ll also notice under Interpretation the word annoying won’t be found. The criteria is much more detailed...things like movement of steps in time with music, use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music. These are things that all three medalists accel at. You see where I’m going with this....

It’s ok to criticize results and even though it’s futile...it’s going to work in your advantage to understand why and how they get the scores they do. I get that you don’t like them...that doesn’t mean you still can respect their efforts.

I do respect their efforts. That really wasn't the point I was trying to make. And even these criteria, I hope you'll agree, aren't the most objective. The discussion of what the judges do with these protocols is a whole another story. I wouldn't score someone for being annoying, though I did say that in my post. And while there may be criteria each medalist excels at, it seems to me that they get high scores across the board, which I don't agree with. I wish there were more transparency.

ETA: It is weird to me that backloading isn't a negative -- not only do I not like it, but also, I'm sure that the Canadian commentators once said that backloading should result in lower PCS scores.

I also don't think that things like skating skills should be checkmarks (which I guess is what happened there), but should be judged on the quality of everything written there.

 

[kevinVchicago]

I don't dislike European skaters -- I love skaters with an artistic bent, but are still good with the athletic side, which isn't what the top European ladies currently offer for me (apart from the ever-finicky Carolina). I love skaters like Kostornaia, and I love skaters like Tsurskaya, whose artistry does need work, but her delayed jumps add some art to the skating. I also like Aliev and Javi on the men's side (but I didn't get around to watching most of the men's event), and P/C from dance. And Savchenko/Massot.

Apart from them and Karen Chen, Nathan Chen and the Shibs (and entertainers like Jimmy Ma), I think all my favourites are from Asia.

I didn't watch the whole event. It's easy to FF/skip when you get bored.

Sorry, what does FF mean? [emoji23] Would you tell me what you mean by artistry? Like for example, do you think Rajicova has more artistry than Medvedeva? I'm just curious because we have different perspectives.

I watched the whole competition and I was particularly impressed with the artistry of Micol Cristini and Loena Hendrickx.