Unlikely age limits will change much?

el henry · Sep 24, 2018

concorde said:
The bodies of males and females physically mature at different rates.

According to familydoctor.org most girls are physically mature by about 14 years of age. Boys mature at about 15 or 16.

So about 1-2 year difference between the two sexes become physically mature.

Clearly we have different opinions on this matter.
I think the current age limit is fine. I would not be opposed to pushing it up another year but more that that, I think the ladies sport would suffer.

I understand, and that why I said I’m not sure about the age. Girls do mature earlier. Although I’ve mostly read reports about the effects of gymnastics on developing bodies. I would let those with medical expertise far beyond mine decide. It’s just that some of the arguments in favor of the status quo puzzle me :scratch2:

And I do have different ideas about what I like in the sport of figure skating, but that’s why we’re here, to discuss what we like. Some people like chocolate and some like vanilla, we don’t all need to like the same thing

TryMeLater · Sep 24, 2018

DaNiCG said:
Biologically speaking, male and female bodies develop different, females tend to develop hips, breasts, etc Male body does not, but they grow more, and they have more muscles than ladies. We all know hips play an important factor in FS. They both have growth spurt, so theres that. Evolution make us this way, so if you feel offended about this fight with her (Saying this cause Ive being in arguments when I mention this before)

IMO I dont care about the issue anymore, just that it should be fair in all disciplines IF a change happen. But its interesting seeing how people behave with this. In my observations Most fans who complain about the whole age limit are from the ladies field, Key word "Most" and guess fans of who? yeah. So its interesting

It's not even a puberty issue, it's a bone density issue.
Children have "soft bones" which are prone more to injuries and might even affect the growth of the child.
That's one of the reasons for separating seniors and juniors.
I'm even for ISU forbidding quads in juniors for both men and women.

DaNiCG · Sep 24, 2018

TryMeLater said:
It's not even a puberty issue, it's a bone density issue.
Children have "soft bones" which are prone more to injuries and might even affect the growth of the child.
That's one of the reasons for separating seniors and juniors.
I'm even for ISU forbidding quads in juniors for both men and women.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the bones :palmf:

do they even care? they have yet to make studies about this. Most of our knowledge comes from gymnastic, and the injures arent the same.

TryMeLater · Sep 24, 2018

DaNiCG said:
Oh yeah, I forgot about the bones

do they even care? they have yet to make studies about this. Most of our knowledge comes from gymnastic, and the injures arent the same.

They have started doing studies regarding skaters.
You can watch some of it here.

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 24, 2018

I agree with the title of this thread. It does seem unlikely age limits will change much. Probably not at all

samkrut@mail.ru · Sep 24, 2018

Cancelling backloading bonus in ladies was not the smartest idea. Now those with quads and triple axels and little backloading will have big advantage over former backloaders. With such looking at this year programs I don't see so far major artistic breakthroughs. And of course, it was done not because of one country and some specific skaters in that country - it was done because backloading was an unhealthy trend in all countries. No doubts:sarcasm:

Now, the age limits survived and it looks like they won't change them at least before Beijing. So that the super trio can go senior allready next season and be eligible for the Olympics. I tried to explain why it makes sense. Although in principle it is not necessary to defend the rules: they are established laws. It is up to those who want changes to prove their case. So far the arguments have not convinced both ISU and me.

gkelly · Sep 26, 2018

andromache said:
I just again want to say that I’m not necessarily in favor of increasing the age limit. But there are a lot of issues to consider if an elite sport is going to be dominated by children and they’re worth talking about.

That is true.

I think it is worth identifying what the problems might be with a sport (and a specific discipline within that sport) in which the majority of successful competitors are well below the age of majority. Identify the reasons that is the case and what problems, if any, need to be solved.

Then start searching for solutions.

It seems that often these age limit discussions start with a solution ("Let's raise the age limit!" or "Let's lower/remove the age limit!" -- and yes, we do get arguments from fans in both directions) and then start searching for problems that doing so might solve. That seems like a backward approach.

andromache · Sep 26, 2018

gkelly said:
That is true.

I think it is worth identifying what the problems might be with a sport (and a specific discipline within that sport) in which the majority of successful competitors are well below the age of majority. Identify the reasons that is the case and what problems, if any, need to be solved.

I think it risks de-legitimizing the sport, especially in Olympic terms. Olympic sport is about peak physicality and what the human body & mind are capable of when we push them to their furthest extent in a given discipline. If we're talking about a sport in which the majority of successful competitors are children - that just doesn't seem right. This doesn't apply to individual prodigies like Trusova, but if we're talking about a cycle of girls who peak at ages 14-16 and then proceed to routinely lose to girls in that age range once they're a little bit older, I think it means the sport is rewarding the wrong thing.

Like, if the most highly rewarded aspect of ladies' figure skating is the maximum number of rotations in the air and that maximum number is only attainable by prepubescent bodies, then maybe we should find a quality of skating to evaluate (and weigh just as heavily) that post-pubescent bodies are also capable of.

Saying that the peak of a sport is what can only be accomplished by a child's prepubescent body just doesn't seem right when nearly every other Olympic sport is dominated by adults - it would be appropriate for the Youth Olympics.

(Ladies' skating isn't there yet and it might not ever get there - but it does seem as if there are a number of people who think the sport is going that way for better or worse, which is why it's worth addressing.)

gkelly · Sep 26, 2018

What about women's gymnastics, and rhythmic gymnastics, which also seem to reward small (in different ways) and young body types and to be punishing enough that even naturally small women may succumb to injuries and pass their peak for that reason by early adulthood?

andromache · Sep 26, 2018

gkelly said:
What about women's gymnastics, and rhythmic gymnastics, which also seem to reward small (in different ways) and young body types and to be punishing enough that even naturally small women may succumb to injuries and pass their peak for that reason by early adulthood?

There are always going to be body types/ages that are "peak" for certain pursuits. I just don't think it's appropriate for an Olympic sport for the ideal body type/age to overwhelmingly under the age of majority - again, that makes more sense for the Youth Olympics.

I also think it has a negative impact on that individual culture of the sport (diets to prevent puberty, eating disorders, overworking and overtraining children, parents and coaches exploiting minors, etc.). Granted, all of those things can happen in any sport at any level, but I think at the highest, most elite levels of sport, people are much more likely to excuse or ignore it when bad things are happening to kids.

(ETA: I don't know enough about gymnastics or rhythmic gymnastics to know whether or not they have the potential to become overwhelming dominated by minors or if they already are.)

Elucidus · Sep 26, 2018

I don't see a problem in current age limit. Why there all this infinite discussions about perceived "problem" are starting to appear recently? Why? Just think about it.
It means that there should exist some distinct problem within the sport affecting everyone potential enjoyment of watching it - thus requiring immediate resolving. But it is not the case at all.
If anything I would say it's just the opposite. Last season was one of the most interesting seasons ever in history of the sport. Popularity of FS slowly but steadily rising too. Artistry of skating raised immensely along with technical difficulty - despite what all oldies are whining about. To prove it - just watch any competition 10-20 years ago and compare it with modern skating. Difference in artistry is HUGE. Nowadays many performances are like miniature theatrical plays with purpose and idea behind it - while in the past artistical side of skating was just an afterthought, background for the jumps - it was indeed mostly just the sport. Is it possible to say that 15 y.o. Zagitova's "Don Quihote" didn't become jewel of OG, that without her OG would become more interesting to watch? Of course not! It just the opposite - I pity the viewers who couldn't see beautiful Kostornaya's programs at OG as well. The next season promises to be even more exciting with trio of super talented girls representing both technicality and artistry at their peak at last adorning rather stale senior field. Isn't it just another reason to be genuinely glad and looking forward to with anticipation, is it? :rolleye:

Considering the above - why so many people here think that they have some problem now requiring immediate answer? Is it because everything now is too good for the sport and there are always those who want to spoil the fun for others? Or it's just that eternal itch to change something just for the sake of immediate self glorification as author of supposedly beneficial changes? Or just mere low motives to protect their favorite senior ladies from being crushed by more talented skaters covering it with health concerns hypocrisy? :sarcasm: Anyway there is something those people do not like NOW but somehow they are too shy to say honestly with what they are so dissatisfied. Don't be shy - just tell us your true motives

I would recommend to ignore all such attention-baiters with recurrent age limit topics and move on. Often "less is more" - and being conservative is better than change for the sake of changes. There are much more interesting topics to discuss - for example two great competitions tomorrow

gkelly · Sep 26, 2018

Elucidus said:
I don't see a problem in current age limit. Why there all this infinite discussions about perceived "problem" are starting to appear recently?

I think it's more a question of why have these discussions appeared again recently.

There have been several changes to the age rules in the past 25+ years that I've been following the sport, with discussion among fans and insiders before and after each change. As fans, we don't always have access to all the reasoning that has gone into the rule changes. When changes actually happen, some explanations will be published, but there may have been other reasons that officials chose not to share with the press.

samkrut@mail.ru · Sep 26, 2018

Elucidus said:
I don't see a problem in current age limit. Why there all this infinite discussions about perceived "problem" are starting to appear recently? Why? Just think about it.
It means that there should exist some distinct problem within the sport affecting everyone potential enjoyment of watching it - thus requiring immediate resolving. But it is not the case at all.
If anything I would say it's just the opposite. Last season was one of the most interesting seasons ever in history of the sport. Popularity of FS slowly but steadily rising too. Artistry of skating raised immensely along with technical difficulty - despite what all oldies are whining about. To prove it - just watch any competition 10-20 years ago and compare it with modern skating. Difference in artistry is HUGE. Nowadays many performances are like miniature theatrical plays with purpose and idea behind it - while in the past artistical side of skating was just an afterthought, background for the jumps - it was indeed mostly just the sport. Is it possible to say that 15 y.o. Zagitova's "Don Quihote" didn't become jewel of OG, that without her OG would become more interesting to watch? Of course not! It just the opposite - I pity the viewers who couldn't see beautiful Kostornaya's programs at OG as well. The next season promises to be even more exciting with trio of super talented girls representing both technicality and artistry at their peak at last adorning rather stale senior field. Isn't it just another reason to be genuinely glad and looking forward to with anticipation, is it?
Considering the above - why so many people here think that they have some problem now requiring immediate answer? Is it because everything now is too good for the sport and there are always those who want to spoil the fun for others? Or it's just that eternal itch to change something just for the sake of immediate self glorification as author of supposedly beneficial changes? Or just mere low motives to protect their favorite senior ladies from being crushed by more talented skaters covering it with health concerns hypocrisy? :sarcasm: Anyway there is something those people do not like NOW but somehow they are too shy to say honestly with what they are so dissatisfied. Don't be shy - just tell us your true motives
I would recommend to ignore all such attention-baiters with recurrent age limit topics and move on. Often "less is more" - and being conservative is better than change for the sake of changes. There are much more interesting topics to discuss - for example two great competitions tomorrow

Excellent post. I am sure these conversations will continue. The good news is that they are futile: the age limit won't change before 2022 so that next year I expect the main intrigue as the "wonder trio" versus Rika Kihira. Sorry, other senior skaters (still hope that Alina and Zhenya will find necessary vehicles and motivation to compete with the new jumping generation).

macy · Sep 26, 2018

Shayuki said:
Right now, I'd be sad if increased age limits would block Kamila Valieva.

And yes, the "artistry" reasoning just doesn't work. See Sofia Samodelkina, age 11: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcg9nckIFqw

She's 11 and the vast majority(95%+ at least) of competitive skaters will never get there. To me there really is no good reasoning for increased age limits. I've said this before but I'd lower them instead.

wow, what a treat that was to watch! :love:

solani · Sep 28, 2018

I also think that it's unlikely that age limits are going to change. And if they do, it should be decided years in advance, at least 4 years, so that the athletes and coaches can prepare accordingly. I remember that Lipnitskaya said that she knew that she would be eligible for the Sochi Olympics before she joined Tutberidze. She would probably have planned her career and education quite differently if she weren't. And I doubt she is the only athlete who has planned her career like that.
I think that underweight athletes should be judged differently than normal weight athletes. ( I'm aware that this idea is very unpopular in this forum, but it's my opinion, no need to discuss this further.) This would take away some of the advantage that light pre-puberty girls have right now in this juging system imo.

gkelly · Sep 28, 2018

I would rather see more emphasis on skills that do not benefit from a particular body type, or a variety of skills that each favor different body types, rather than trying to police each skater's body in ways that either are inaccurate or require determining detailed medical knowledge.

If there is to be a sport of ice jumping where all that counts is the jumps and it is clear that weight is the biggest determinant of jumping success, then maybe there should be separate weight classes in which skaters compete only against those in their own weight class rather than everyone competing against each other with different rules based on weight. That would take away the incentive for skaters to try to keep their body weight lower than optimal -- those on the borderline between weight classes might actually benefit competitively by gaining a pound or two and moving up a class.

solani · Sep 28, 2018

gkelly said:
I would rather see more emphasis on skills that do not benefit from a particular body type, or a variety of skills that each favor different body types, rather than trying to police each skater's body in ways that either are inaccurate or require determining detailed medical knowledge.

If there is to be a sport of ice jumping where all that counts is the jumps and it is clear that weight is the biggest determinant of jumping success, then maybe there should be separate weight classes in which skaters compete only against those in their own weight class rather than everyone competing against each other with different rules based on weight. That would take away the incentive for skaters to try to keep their body weight lower than optimal -- those on the borderline between weight classes might actually benefit competitively by gaining a pound or two and moving up a class.

I agree to the first part. Heavier skaters had an advantage doing figures, that's why we saw heavier skaters in the past. The question is would we like to have something like figures back? I would like that, I think the media coverage could be great with all the technology that's available now. The question is wether the casual viewer would care for it. I don't know.

But if a solution is needed then it should be a practical one, weight classes would certainly not be the most practical solution in Figure Skating. Although I would like more competitions at the Olympics. Look at f.e. all those skiing competions and how many medals those athletes can get! And f.e. downhill skiers certainly have a different body type than slalom skiers. So weight classes could be fun for fans like us.
I like big jumps. The problem imo is that f.e. a 14,15 year old girl has no problem with her jumps. Then her hips get wider and she's gaining weight, that's perfectly normal and then they can try to fix the problem in different ways. The easiest and fastest way is just to lower the weight again. I think it would be good if there was an incentive (any kind of incentive!) not to do that, not to go that easy way. If the scores had been lower because of the low body weight anyway, skaters would look forward to beeing a bit heavier and coaches would train their athletes differently.

Lester · Sep 28, 2018

psusanne said:
I agree to the first part. Heavier skaters had an advantage doing figures, that's why we saw heavier skaters in the past. The question is would we like to have something like figures back? I would like that, I think the media coverage could be great with all the technology that's available now. The question is wether the casual viewer would care for it. I don't know.

Well there's like a demand for videos which are "so satisfying"

D

In reality though, I don't see it catching on.

gkelly · Sep 28, 2018

psusanne said:
I agree to the first part. Heavier skaters had an advantage doing figures, that's why we saw heavier skaters in the past. The question is would we like to have something like figures back? I would like that, I think the media coverage could be great with all the technology that's available now. The question is wether the casual viewer would care for it. I don't know.

But if a solution is needed then it should be a practical one, weight classes would certainly not be the most practical solution in Figure Skating.

Well, I was being serious about the first part and facetious about the second.

Again, for a jump-focused discipline, it might be meaningful to handicap based on

For a well-balanced discipline, I'd rather just see less emphasis on jump rotations and more relative on overall quality and on other types of elements and other types of skills.

And if we can have separate medals both for ice jumping and for well-balanced freeskating, win-win.

rugbyfan · Sep 28, 2018

I am curious. I don't really remember compulsory figures. If they were re-introduced, would it change this discussion? How possible was it to get to the top in skating at a young age during them.

In terms of age limit there are a few things I would like to know - I genuinely think studies need to be done on whether the damage done to prepubescent bodies is significantly greater. If we are damaging a child's long term health before they are possibly of an age to consent I think we need to think about that.

I will, however, also agree with Andromache, that I would find a sport where only the pre-adults can excel troubling - that is probably why this discussion has come up again lately (just like it did in 1987 when Lipinski and Kwan were both under 18) since so many of the Russian girls are world leaders and then vanish almost as soon as they have begun to make a mark -BUT if you look at the winter Olympics results only 2 of the top ten were under 18. Outside Russia it doesn't seem to be the case that girls hit puberty and can't compete. This makes the current debate seem very targeted at Russia.

There is, however, also the side to think about and that is people losing their jumps when they hit puberty. Again, I am with Andromache, I would like to see what people can do in their adult bodies. My six year old can do amazing contortions, but that is different from watching a full grown contortionist. Part of my problem with the current state of skating is not that I see young girls win, but that those same girls cannot even approach what they were doing in childhood when they become adults. That is one weird sport that says your physical peak is at fourteen or sixteen. One of the reasons I thought Kwan was a truly great athlete was that she continued performing at a high level from childhood into adulthood. Midori Ito was still doing a triple axel age 26 (hey she is still doing a double axel now).

... argh. Lost track of what I am trying to say, but going to post this anyway if for no other reason than it records my admiration of Ito

Unlikely age limits will change much?

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