2002 Olympic Ladies Scores

[mzheng]

A few people on FSU and myself personally feel that Joe Inman sacrificed MK for an American victory.

I felt the same as well. The same as some others in this thread said, with pairs fisco, had MK won the Gold with that performance the pending Rusian protesting, they were threaten to pull out the whole team before the lady's final, will go another level up.

I just felt the stars were not line up for MK's Olympic. Unlike they lined up for her at the worlds. Oh well after three years, Michelle got over with it and she is still skating don't know how long, but NOW that's all matters to me.

 

[Eeyora]

I feel MK was the sacrificial lamb as well

Lukily she has got over it unfortunately her fans myself included haven't

 

[Mathman]

No, I don't think so. I think that Joe Inman felt that in the free skate Sarah skated the best, Irina the second best, Michelle the third best, and Sasha the fourth best.

I had it Michelle, Sarah, Irina. But nobody asked me.

MM

 

[chuckm]

Michelle got over 2002 Olympics rather quickly because she knew she hadn't skated her best. 1998 was tougher for her because she felt that she had skated her best, but it wasn't enough.

I think Michelle wants to win every competition just as much as Irina or Sasha does, but she doesn't go to pieces if she doesn't win. After all these years, she is well aware that no one wins every time out, and you have to accept that as part of competing.

When she won bronze at 2004 Worlds, it was a kind of victory after her bad QR and being dinged in the SP. She made it to the podium, and she was happy to be there.

 

[mzheng]

Yes. I always felt Michelle was brought up very well under the influence of her parents and Frank Carol. They taught her right when she was very young, and she'll benefit from these influence lifetime. What's the point to indulgen yourself in bitterness while in reality you can't win every time while you are out.

 

[Jimena]

I actually had it Sarah, Irina, Michelle, and Sasha. To me, Michelle looked tentative, she fell on a jump and her spins were really suffering technically. They had gotten worse since she had left Carroll. But, no one asked me either.

I know that with CoP Sarah would've most likely lost the LP, because CoP penalizes cheated triples twice (once for counting them as doubles, and then the probable negative GOE). None of her 3-3 combos would've counted as 3-3 and she would've been penalized for her flutz.

 

[Mathman]

I felt the same as well. The same as some others in this thread said, with pairs fisco, had MK won the Gold with that performance the pending Rusian protesting, they were threaten to pull out the whole team before the lady's final, will go another level up.

I am not so sure about that. If the judges had decided that Sarah won the free skate and Michelle edged Irina for second, even though neither of them skated well, I think the public could understand that Michelle was the overall winner because Sarah was too far behind after the short.

I don't think anyone would have cared much if the Russians got mad or not.

And anyway, why would the Russians care whether Michelle ended up with the gold, or Sarah? There were two possibilities: Michelle beats Irina, Michelle wins gold. Or Irina beats Michelle, Sarah wins gold.

Mathman

 

[Mehdi]

I didn't see any two-foot landing in Irina's program. IMO the only flaw in the routine was the shaky landing on the flip. The rest was technically superb and flawless. As for the 5.9 she received from the Slovakian judge, I don't think it's that exagerated since the mark is clearly a place maker. This judge gave Sasha a high mark as well.

Sarah's triple loops weren't cheated at all. She usually does cheat theses combinations, bot not that time. However the flutz was very bad indeed : big change of edge, very slow and no running edge out of it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Can't figure out why we are getting all riled up again about Sarah's win. She was THE BEST THAT NIGHT. Her triple combos were perfect. Calling them underrotated are from posters who call them underrotated before she does them. It's nitpick time. No one talks about Irina's cautious skate which I see everytime she skates. She is clearly trying to be perfect and that can be a problem as it was THAT NIGHT.

Joe

 

[euterpe]

I didn't see any two-foot landing in Irina's program. IMO the only flaw in the routine was the shaky landing on the flip. The rest was technically superb and flawless. As for the 5.9 she received from the Slovakian judge, I don't think it's that exagerated since the mark is clearly a place maker. This judge gave Sasha a high mark as well.

Sarah's triple loops weren't cheated at all. She usually does cheat theses combinations, bot not that time. However the flutz was very bad indeed : big change of edge, very slow and no running edge out of it.

I recall how very slowly and cautiously Irina skated. Normally, Irina is speed, speed, speed, but not in the FS at SLC. I think that's why she botched the landing on her flip---she didn't go into it with enough speed. She picked up a little in the last minute of the program, but it was a very flat performance, with none of the character and personality she had been putting into "Tosca" during the GP. I remember wondering why she hadn't worn the red dress she wore in the GP, but skated in a dull black.

I got the impression that Irina was concentrating on not making any mistakes, that's why she skated so conservatively. And she knew she hadn't skated well. At the end of the program, she shook her head and mouthed what looked like "damn, damn, damn!"

The Slovakian judge placed Irina 1st (5.9, 5.9), Kwan 2nd (5.8, 5.9), Sarah 3rd (5.8,5.8) and Sasha 4th (5.7,5.8). The double 5.9s seem a bit much considering that Irina did not show any of her normal sparkle and zip. The Russian and Belorussian judges gave Irina the same scores: 5.8, 5.9, and of course a 1st place ordinal. The Russian judge placed Sarah 4th and Kwan 3rd, behind Cohen; the Danish judge placed Sarah 4th behind Irina, Kwan, and Cohen.

 

[soogar]

Sasha made a huge impression on me in the free skate. Despite her errors, I actually thought she should have beaten Sarah in the free skate. Sarah's presentation was horrible and Sasha looked like the best skater in the World after sitting though Sarah's plodding program. Yes, Sarah landed the jumps, but Sasha actually looked and skated like a polished figure skater (and what everyone expects a champion figure skater to skate like) rather than plodding along and connecting the jumps like Sarah. It doesn't surprise me that skating has somewhat fallen off in popularity b/c without a strong ladies champion in the pro ranks, people tend not to be interested in skating events. Unfortunately Tara got injured but Sarah has been a disappointment. However it's no surprise that she turned out that way... she couldn't perform when she was an eligible, how can she be expected to perform now.

Off topic but pro skating was really strong in the late 80's early 90's b/c of the quality of the skaters competing. Katarina, Kristi, Brian etc stayed in the amateur game long enough where they learned how to sell a program. In the old days, a skater was judged to be a champion not just on the program but on the "look". There are skaters who are champion material and if they have an off day, the judges will give them the benefit of the doubt. In Brennan's book, she surmised that the judges might have weighed out who would be the skater of all ages and presumed that Oksana would be an all time skater verses Nancy Kerrigan and awarded the gold medal to her. I'm pretty sure that this thinking is what got Kat her two gold medals as well. Look at Kat and compare her to the people she has beaten : Roz Summers and Liz Manley. Neither of these ladies could have captured the imagination of the public like Kat. Plus Kat was a quality pro skater who really entertained the public and was able to come back in 1994 and skate a beautiful program which was better than anything that Nancy K could have done. What has Nancy Kerrigan done for skating? Other than her stellar one time Olympic free skate, Nancy was a mediocre professional skater, much in the vein of her entire amateur athletic career. Oksana despite her problems is still a captivating (or controversial) pro skater who gets people interested in her skating regardless of whether they like her or not.

The judges could have done the right thing and gave MK the second place. I resent MK cracking up like she did b/c Sarah wound up becoming an OGM which is a title that she just cannot live up to. In fact, I think the reason why the judges took so long with Michelle's scores was because many of them were thinking about who would best wear that Olympic crown. I don't think any of them wanted Sarah to win that OGM so there was a lot of thought as to whom would place second. Inman went with Irina b/c perhaps he knew that the Eastern Block judges would go for Irina and it might have become a battle of ordinals if he gave his vote to MK over Irina and Irina would have wound up with the OGM instead of an American.

 

[Mathman]

Inman went with Irina b/c perhaps he knew that the Eastern Block judges would go for Irina and it might have become a battle of ordinals if he gave his vote to MK over Irina and Irina would have wound up with the OGM instead of an American.

Nah, Inman was too busy consulting with Lee Harvey Oswald on the grassy knoll.

Here's a novel theory: Maybe Inman thought Sarah skated best, Irina skated second best, Michelle skated third best and Sasha skated fourth best.

There is no way that the American cause could have been harmed, or that Irina could have profited, if Inman had gone Sarah, Michelle, Irina, Sasha. Or better yet, Sarah, Michelle, Sasha, Irina. But that's not how he saw it.

Mathman

 

[Sylvia]

Here's a novel theory: Maybe Inman thought Sarah skated best, Irina skated second best, Michelle skated third best and Sasha skated fourth best.

There is no way that the American cause could have been harmed, or that Irina could have profited, if Inman had gone Sarah, Michelle, Irina, Sasha. Or better yet, Sarah, Michelle, Sasha, Irina. But that's not how he saw it.

Here were all the judges' quotes from the 2/23/02 New York Times article by Selena Roberts:

[Roberts:]
Anyone could have changed the outcome, including the United States judge,
Joe Inman.

"That's what I've been told, but I don't even think about that," said Inman,
who ranked Hughes first, followed by Slutskaya and Kwan. "I'm judging the
free skating. If I thought about anything else, that's wrong. This is what
she deserves for this certain performance. I don't know what the other judges
are doing. But I knew what I had to do. I knew why I did what I did.
"Michelle and Irina both had problems connecting steps. Irina was better in
the spins. Irina was better in the jumps. That's what did it for me between
Irina and Michelle."

Canadian judge Deborah Islam [she put Kwan 2nd and Slutskaya 3rd]:
"I thought there was no question from my point of view who was in first place -- Sarah Hughes," Islam said. "Sarah was the performance of the evening for
me, technically and on the second mark as well. Michelle and Irina, you could
have gone either way. I had them separated by one-tenth of a point."

Italian judge Paolo Pizzocari on Kwan [he placed her 2nd]:
"Over all, she was very slow... She was not so much fresh as she was in the
past."

Pizzocari on placing Cohen 3rd:
"Sasha Cohen missed a triple- triple combination, but still she made all the
other jumps... Some of her landings were stiff, but in any case, she had a
wonderful flow throughout the ice. She brings life in her skating. I
especially loved the extension of her arms and free leg and the spirals are
wonderful."

Pizzocari on placing Slutskaya 4th:
"Slutskaya, her jumps are high. But last night, she was a little bit afraid.
She was not so fluid. Sometimes, in the landing of a jump, she was stiff. I
found she had few connecting steps. So the whole program, compared to the
other three American skaters, she was slower in using her music. But what can I say? I was sure about first place, but I had to think about the next three."

 

[soogar]

Judging from the scores Sarah got (and how close a flawed Sasha was judged to her), none of the judges really *liked* Sarah's skating. However Sarah landed all of her jumps and there really wasn't anyway to mark her. However b/c of Sarah's placement in the short, the judges did have a lot of control who could win the title. I don't buy Inman's response that he wasn't thinking of the final outcome. Of course he was thinking about it. Going with Sarah as the winner of the LP was the safe choice. He knew that the panel was split 5:4 with the non eastern european judges enjoying a majority panel. It's not brain surgery to figure out that the judges from the former republics are going to stick together for their own skater (they did it in the dance event, pairs event, men's event and probably every single worlds since the USSR broke up). So knowing full well Irina would have had 4 number 1 placements b/c she really didn't have a major error, he had to make a quick decision what to do. Without knowing how the other western judges would vote, he put MK in 3rd b/c Irina beating MK would give the US the highest probability of getting the OGM. Had he placed MK in second, he would have had to hope that the other Western judges placed MK in second as well. I don't remember the exact scores, but Sasha had recieved great scores for her skate considering some of her mistakes. Sasha had also tried a harder program than MK and considering MK's mistakes, the argument could have been made to place Sasha over MK. I personally would have reluctantly given 1) Sarah, 2) Sasha, 3) MK and 4) Irina (that's how unimpressed I was with Irina's freeskate). The Western judges all voted to form for Sarah in the LP b/c she was clean. If other judges preferred Sasha to MK, it would have been an ordinal nightmare that would have given Irina the title.

 

[BravesSkateFan]

Joe:

While I agree that Sarah was the best skater that night, I also feel that Michelle was better than Irina. Of course the judges disagreed, and that gave Sarah the gold. I can possible see how some may have thought Irina was better and while I don't agree at all, I don't think it was completely out of line, so I'm not too riled up over Sarah winning.
With that said, Sarah DID cheat some of her jumps at the Olympics. If I didn't accidently erase my copy of the Olympic tape I would be very tempted to send you a copy of Sarah's performance for you to rewatch. LOL She doesn't cheat all her jumps all the time, but she does cheat more than most, and she most defintely did in the Olympics.

Calling them underrotated are from posters who call them underrotated before she does them

I most certanly am not one of those people. I just call it like I see it .

BTW Joe, It seems like I've been disagreeing with you alot lately. LOL Just wanted you to know that its nothing personal, I respect your opinion very much, and you are one of my favorite posters on the board....even if we don't always see eye to eye

 

[gezando]

. I resent MK cracking up like she did b/c Sarah wound up becoming an OGM which is a title that she just cannot live up to.

Resent Michelle b/c Sarah became the OGM, how convoluted is that. Sarah deserved her win that night

I can't believe how bitter people are towards Sarah. She won the OGM fair and square, and had been nothing but the best role model off the ice since

 

[mzheng]

... but the best role model off the ice since

Yes. The best role model off the ice. But the worst star on ice.

 

[gezando]

Yes. The best role model off the ice. But the worst star on ice.

There are plenty of audience who are willing to buy expensive tickets to see her.
SOI is just a show, whether she is the best or worst performer on SOI is not important, and is entirely subjective. On the record book she is still the reigning OGM, and she belongs to a very exclusive club, Currently Irina, Michelle, Cohen, Arakwa et al are working their butt off to get a shot at a membership of that club

 

[Mathman]

Without knowing how the other western judges would vote, he put MK in 3rd b/c Irina beating MK would give the US the highest probability of getting the OGM. Had he placed MK in second, he would have had to hope that the other Western judges placed MK in second as well. I don't remember the exact scores, but Sasha had recieved great scores for her skate considering some of her mistakes. Sasha had also tried a harder program than MK and considering MK's mistakes, the argument could have been made to place Sasha over MK. I personally would have reluctantly given 1) Sarah, 2) Sasha, 3) MK and 4) Irina (that's how unimpressed I was with Irina's freeskate). The Western judges all voted to form for Sarah in the LP b/c she was clean. If other judges preferred Sasha to MK, it would have been an ordinal nightmare that would have given Irina the title.

I cannot make any sense of this at all. As long as Sarah got five first place ordinals, Irina is out no matter what. Isn't that right?

The juggling of second place ordinals between Michelle and Irina might have ended up giving Michelle the gold instead of Sarah. But not Irina, even if every single judge had placed her second. Isn't that right?

Can you show me a possible scenario where Irina could have won, given that five judges put Sarah first? Maybe there is something more about OBO that I haven't caught onto yet. (Sylvia?)

"That's what I've been told, but I don't even think about that," said Inman,
who ranked Hughes first, followed by Slutskaya and Kwan. "I'm judging the
free skating. If I thought about anything else, that's wrong. This is what
she deserves for this certain performance. I don't know what the other judges
are doing. But I knew what I had to do. I knew why I did what I did.
"Michelle and Irina both had problems connecting steps. Irina was better in
the spins. Irina was better in the jumps. That's what did it for me between
Irina and Michelle."

Thanks for the reference, Sylvia. So far, I do not see any basis to charge that Inman is lying through his teeth, which is what is being implied in this thread.

Mathman

 

[Jimena]

Here's a novel theory: Maybe Inman thought Sarah skated best, Irina skated second best, Michelle skated third best and Sasha skated fourth best.

Which is how I had it. Go me!

And Joe, I'm calling Sarah's triples underrotated because I saw them underrotated. I don't call them underrotated because of some preconceived idea of how she usually performed her 3-3s. I still think she was the best that night. Sasha had a splat, so did Michelle, and Irina was unusually tentative and had a bad landing.