2014-2015 GPF Mens Short Program 12/12

[Scovies]

I've been wondering where the disconnect could be in some viewers for Machida. He has excellently constructed programs and he is one of the more consistent skaters this year, not to mention he puts 100% into his performance at all times.

There are plenty of figure skaters who love to skate with loads drama and intensity that don't get the same criticism of being 'inauthentic' or maybe they do?
It may be that Machida seems to take him self way too seriously. Vornov and Misha have OT drama but a bit of a grin here and there so we know it's just skating, it's just fun. But Machida is like "THIS IS SERIOUS! I AM BEING AN ARTIST!" all the time -Could this be off-putting?
-That's why I liked his Queen 'having a good time' EX so much. It showed that he knew how to relax a bit and have fun.

I can get that feeling from Machida sometimes, too. Sometimes the OTT drama can just work, like in his LP at Skate America; I thought that was amazing. But he does project that "I am a serious arteeeeeest" thing, which I don't always find appealing. It's like Lambiel on steroids.

 

[OS]

I completely agree with this. I just don't think Machida is at Hanyu's level. and I think Hanyu performed brilliantly today with the exception of the fall. He showed a lyricism and maturity I haven't seen from him before.

Machida is unquestionably an excellent skater with great jump consistency and beautiful balletic line and extension, but he comes across to me as a bit studied, mannered, paint by numbers, as Lavender put it. I don't feel his soul in his skating the way I do in Hanyu's. There is also a slight diva quality to Machida that irks me- he almost stretches and extends in too calculated a way and his hair antics are a bit over the top.

Ditto thrice.

Hanyu deserve to lead him substantially in PCS/GOEs/TES (His 3A deserve his own category bonuses). I'd put Machida's PCS at least 1 or 2 points behind Hanyu even with a fall since it does not take away from the rest of the performance. I do think they have more to improvement before getting to Patrick Chan SS level. I have expressed my early season impression of Hanyu's Sp (like Denis' s SP) is like they are trying to emulate Patrick Chan type of classic men skating last season.... I haven't changed my mind. Today Hanyu's performance is head and shoulders above the rest of the field. He also have the intangibles which other men lacks, and this is even more evident without Patrick on the scene showing him in off in skating skills and a more fully realised program. He skated like a champion even with a fall. 94 may be over marked, but this is a sport that tends to reward for being the best in the world, at the biggest events, especially if you are perceived to be head of the pack already. He is the reigning OGM and WC, so he got his bonus for a great comeback consider early season disaster.

Machida is a bit like Miyahara for me. Although got the skills but lacks the wow and it factor. It is studious skating, over rehearsed, over practised, put upon expressions and lack in authenticity, freedom, unique perspective, letting things go and 'feel' and 'emote' which is important in art. The fact he treat his ladies in lavender / firebird / east of eden / symphony 9th within more or less similar range of expressions and intensity shows thorough lack in understand, processing, interpreting and expressing an original take. Everything else just becomes an act of some idea of 'artist' without any of the processes to become an artist.

 

[Crossover]

inflation is out, but Hanyuflation has taken its place.

Indeed, I've seen the newly-coined word here and there quite a lot after the SP was over.

If Chan is back for the next season, we could see which word would be dominant though.

 

[Crossover]

I've been wondering where the disconnect could be in some viewers for Machida. He has excellently constructed programs and he is one of the more consistent skaters this year, not to mention he puts 100% into his performance at all times.

There are plenty of figure skaters who love to skate with loads drama and intensity that don't get the same criticism of being 'inauthentic' or maybe they do?

I've really enjoyed watching Machida's performances this year including the SP of the 2014 world championships.
That is one of the sensational and breathtaking performances that I've ever seen from men's figure skating.
After the moment, I've thought he could break Hanyu's world record if he meets a right moment with that kind of performance.

So let's say that some people more appreciate Hanyu's skating, but other people prefer Machida's.

 

[auser]

One thing I really like about that program is that it has quietness to it at the beginning, and not crammed to the gills with extraneous movement. I miss elegant simplicity.

I have had similar thoughts about programs designed for the current ISU rules often lately(although my brain did not phrase it as eloquently as you have):agree:.

 

[MIM]

I just saw Denis's name in your comment and I already feel sad that he didn't make it to the GPF. He's so talented, but he doesn't have the mental strength of a champion

Sigh.... while missing Chan and Denis...

 

[pitterpatter]

I completely agree with this. I just don't think Machida is at Hanyu's level. and I think Hanyu performed brilliantly today with the exception of the fall. He showed a lyricism and maturity I haven't seen from him before.

Machida is unquestionably an excellent skater with great jump consistency and beautiful balletic line and extension, but he comes across to me as a bit studied, mannered, paint by numbers, as Lavender put it. I don't feel his soul in his skating the way I do in Hanyu's. There is also a slight diva quality to Machida that irks me- he almost stretches and extends in too calculated a way and his hair antics are a bit over the top.

I think the biggest scoring injustice today was Kovtun- he had a very weak performance as far as GOE goes and his skating skills are simply not at the level oft others.

My heart broke for Javi. He has such a brilliant short this year (best program he's ever had in my opinion) and to see him fall apart in that program in front of his family/friends/countrymen was so sad to behold. Agreed with those who thought Brian's hug was sweet.

Mura was really off today- I simply adore his textbook jumps- some of the best in the business- but without them being spot on, he sagged and lost energy. I also find his program relatively conventional and uninspired.

Voronov is everything I typically dislike in a skater/guy (no real dance quality or musicality, heavy emphasis on quads, stringy hair & weird facial hair, bizarre "macho" costumes0, and yet I weirdly really like him. I admire his tenacity, his chutzpah, and his incredible 4:3 combination!

:thumbsup: I share a lot of the same sentiments, right down to Voronov . Although, I will say that I don't know if Kovtun's skating skills are really all that weak - he's demonstrated strong skating ability in other programs and exhibitions, and if you pay attention to his feet only (and ignore his upper body movement) I don't think he's bad at all. He's not at the level of Hanyu or Machida, but I think its really his posture, arm movements and ill fitting choreography that drag down his presentation so much.

 

[HanDomi]

Why some of you are still saying that Hanyu was not punished on PCS ? From some of you point of view, you mean that for clean skate of SP he should get 43-44, but for clean skate of SP he is at level of 45-46, even 47 at olys, so his PCS wasn't top notch as for what he performed. Beside that small fall the performance was just amazing. I watched once again whole competition yesterday on polish eurosport and guys said the same, the performance was just out of this world and other couldn't match that. Tatsuki was trying to hard and even had small stumble on choreo sequence.

This fall wasn't such big thing as falling on 3A or 4T. I don't know what you want ? 100 points deductions for fall ?, give him 5 point deduction and he will be still in the lead. Just accept the fact that his performance was the best from the field yesterday.
And I would give him almost +3 for his quad, it was amazing running edge out of it, air poisition, height, everything.


So just please tell me, on what thing he was OVERSCORED ? Because I can't see anything overscored. I would give him perfect -3 for combo, but it has something to do with grades as one user pointed out before, but iti is only -1 from score. And I think he should get +3 for the quad, and we are at the same score.


Some are just saying, oh he was overscored, overscored, I would give him milion points lower. But show me on paper for what thing in program he was overscored so much - 5, 10 points ...

 

[sajoya]

That's why I liked his Queen 'having a good time' EX so much. It showed that he knew how to relax a bit and have fun.

Same, it was that exhibition alone that made me start to like Machida. He was always so serious but when I saw him perform that ex at Sochi, I was impressed (maybe too impressed b/c I watched it over and over again like there was no tomorrow). It was one of the most entertaining performances that night.

 

[matmuh]

I wish that people who talk overscoring, underscoring, etc, would bring up the points more. Like, where would you take points away from x or add points to y? For which elements/PCS criteria? It's hard to have a discussion when points aren't used to support one side of an argument. The only really strong point that were brought up (that I can remember) were the -2's for hanyu's fall and the -3's for machida's quad, and that was addressed a couple pages ago with the calculated total bringing one's score 0.2 lower and the other's 0.14 higher.

thats a good point about which part exactly would you take points away seriously

so many ppl keep commenting about "ohh he can fall but still win silver because he did in the past". you sound like at COC its not like others were clean and he was the only one, its a fact that popped jumps, even comparing to yuzu's 2 FP performances, he had more score at coc bc yes he fell but he rotated everything except loop, some may argue about pcs at coc but even if it was 78-79 it would still give him silver,

some of the ppl here already explained how scoring happened by numbers and all the stuff ( thank you very much btw ) , i recommend you go to those posts and try to understand instead of crushing the skaters. small note of PCS of hanyu vs machida, i dont think there is so much difference between the 2 when you compare individual factors and when you add you get like 1.4 difference, it seems pretty fair to me, not like machida was super clean, also apart from that horrible-unforgivable-shameful (??) fall, hanyu was still the best of the night, quality of everything is top notch, that fall didnt distract rest of it at all thats why pcs didnt drop much, and compared to kovtun pcs hanyu's seems even fairer , too bad about voronov might give him 39-40 but i think he doesnt do dance macabre justice at all (after watching yuna noone could so far)

about machida being over the top, i also agree with that, when you act over the top it stops being believeable and ppl know its an act (its still depend on prefrences of course), the thing with hanyu is he really feels and so into whatever he is skating to, he is honest and geniune, you believe his performances comes from heart (at least i believe), hopefully he will bring it on today at free and of course everyone else too,

 

[Florencito]

Well not everyone think Hanyu should get all that pcs IMO 44-45 is ok for him when he skates flawlessly.

 

[MIM]

wow I find it myself just by input samurai and his name into youtube here it is for you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1IsEgNwaYM

I should say that I liked the first half before he danced with the sward....: I want him to skate something like this program. It is different; not overly serious/dramatic but fun, cheerful, and authentic, which will be coupled with his light/ balletic style . It will be interesting to watch!

 

[Mathman]

I wish that people who talk overscoring, underscoring, etc, would bring up the points more.

So just please tell me, on what thing he was OVERSCORED?

To me, that's the problem right there. Personally, I wish people would bring up the points less. Hanyu was not over-scored according to the IJS rules. That's what's wrong.

People who were once figure skating fans are now accountants.

 

[MIM]

I do think they have more to improvement before getting to Patrick Chan SS level. I have expressed my early season impression of Hanyu's Sp (like Denis' s SP) is like they are trying to emulate Patrick Chan type of classic men skating last season.... I haven't changed my mind. Today Hanyu's performance is head and shoulders above the rest of the field. He also have the intangibles which other men lacks, and this is even more evident without Patrick on the scene showing him in off in skating skills and a more fully realised program. He skated like a champion even with a fall. 94 may be over marked, but this is a sport that tends to reward for being the best in the world, at the biggest events, especially if you are perceived to be head of the pack already. He is the reigning OGM and WC, so he got his bonus for a great comeback consider early season disaster.

:agree: although I think Denis has a slight edge over Yuzu in that department.

I liked that yuzu let the flow out of 4T alone lead into the steps, where he didn't force but let them slow down to die. Same with the 3a. He tried to connect the whole program like a continuous ribbon. But I see some parts where the connection is quite weak. He doesn't seem to handle the emptiness in between as masterfully as Chan does. I admire yuzu not to try to fake, fill, or overreach the gap though. I think he will learn to catch up Chan as he ages, or become something different than Chan.

 

[HanDomi]

To me, that's the problem right there. Personally, I wish people would bring up the points less. Hanyu was not over-scored according to the IJS rules. That's what's wrong.

People who were once figure skating fans are now accountants.

I really think if we would be still in 6.0 system this forum would have explode from complains on how much this was overscored and this underscored. Now at least you have clear protocol where you can analyse for what score was given

And one user made amazing job splitting scores Machida vs Hanyu on TES and analysing for others where the diffrence was, and still there are some ho blindingly say "oh he was overscored , i will not tell you where but he was "


Regarding yesterday competition as I rewatched whole event again I think Sergei was in terrible position to skate, especially that Hanyu given powerfull skate. Back to back it just not looked good for Sergei on presentation side of program and that's why he got quite low score I believe, but I still think he should have matched Kovtun's PCS at least or Kovtun Sergei's

 

[AprilS]

To me, that's the problem right there. Personally, I wish people would bring up the points less. Hanyu was not over-scored according to the IJS rules. That's what's wrong.

People who were once figure skating fans are now accountants.

The posts you quoted was in response to people saying skater x was "over scored" or "inflated". This has to do with the scores-hence the want for valid arguments using the point system...because that's what the scores come from. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are dissatisfied with the current scoring system, yes? That, however, is a completely different discussion. Discussions about scores at a competition are not the same as discussions about the current scoring system. If a skater's scores are in line with whatever scoring system is in place at the time of competition, they are not overscored, regardless of if you agree with the system itself, imo. You can wish for more discussion about the current system, but I don't think that warrants less discussion for current scores using the current system. Why are they mutually exclusive concepts?

 

[Mathman]

I agree with most of what you said. But just a thought... anyone can land a single or a double, but only a handful of people can rotate and fall on a quad <-- which I believe is the logic behind giving a fall on a quad more points.

I believe that there are many acrobats, dancers, etc., who can leap into the air and rotate four times (or at least could train themselves to do so), who have never put on a pair of ice skates. What they can't do is leap into the air, rotate four times, and land on a flowing edge. That is what makes a quad a skating skill.

To answer Mathman earlier about why scores are better than ordinals. Remember that the sport is more than just the elite skaters (although it is a big and arguably the most important part). Imagine yourself as a judge at an intermediate level competition. There are 30 girls all with similar technical patterns, can do all the doubles, similar spin quality etc. Sure you are going to have some who are clearly better and some clearly not at the same level, but the vast majority of them are indistinguishable. As you slowly judge this competition, you realize that it is becoming impossible to accurately place the skaters... and that is the beauty of the point system from a judges perspective. Judges no longer need to rank skaters, no longer need to juggle between difficulty of program vs X number of falls. Judges are just required to look at each element and give a GOE based on their interpretation of the jump according to book. The computers and predetermined point totals takes over the rest.

This is a great point and, in the final analysis, blows complaints about the IJS out of the water (although it does not stop old grouches like me from ranting about it. )

But it does raise the primary dilemma that the sport of figure skating faces. Is skating recreation or entertainment?

If you skate for yourself, for the sake of exercise, or to challenge yourself to learn a new skill, or for the fun of participating in a competitive sport, that's recreation. If you skate for the admiration of an audience (especially a paying one), that's entertainment. Should the scoring rules serve the needs of figure skating as a participatory sport (especially for children) or as spectator sport?

The ISU got rid of figures precisely because this part of the competition held no interest for spectators. With the IJS we have swung back in the opposite direction: the "spectator sport" aspect has been sacrificed somewhat to the "participatory sport" side of things. I guess that's OK, as long as we confront that fact head on and don't try to fool ourselves.

Maybe the bottom line is that we should all turn off our television sets and put on our skates. :yes:

 

[mirai4life]

By 2025, we'll have machines as judges.

 

[Mathman]

...still there are some ho blindingly say "oh he was overscored , i will not tell you where but he was "

I think that's where there is a disconnect between the skating cognoscenti and the potential fans that we would like to attract.

When people see a bad performance which nevertheless earns a lot of points they shrug and switch over to auto racing on the other channel.

The posts you quoted was in response to people saying skater x was "over scored" or "inflated". This has to do with the scores-hence the want for valid arguments using the point system...because that's what the scores come from. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are dissatisfied with the current scoring system, yes? That, however, is a completely different discussion. Discussions about scores at a competition are not the same as discussions about the current scoring system. If a skater's scores are in line with whatever scoring system is in place at the time of competition, they are not overscored, regardless of if you agree with the system itself, imo. You can wish for more discussion about the current system, but I don't think that warrants less discussion for current scores using the current system. Why are they mutually exclusive concepts?

Good point. Here is my opinion, then, on overscoring. Hanyu is not overscored according to the rules in place. Neither was Chan. Their skills are a perfect match for the IJS and they will always score huge points and deserve them under the current scoring rules.

 

[HanDomi]

Good point. Here is my opinion, then, on overscoring. Hanyu is not overscored according to the rules in place. Neither was Chan. Their skills are a perfect match for the IJS and they will always score huge points and deserve them under the current scoring rules.

and that's the key point, rules are the same for everyone under current system, and they skate to this system

if this would be 6.0 system Hanyu would just add 2T after 3lz and he would be in the lead still, well with 2t he would be in the lead anyway under current one too, but he knew it's better to go for it and rotate 3T even if he will fall, and that's what he has done, but I am sure he believed he can land it, but position in the air was off axis
if the system would be diffrent the program would have been also diffrent and skaters would have adjust to other system

and other people would complain again that they don't like this or this under other system. You can't make happy everyone