2014 Cup of China Mens Short Program 11/07

[el henry]

If, as Brian Orser said, Hanyu was unconscious for ANY period of time after the collision, he never should have been allowed to compete. Orser can shrug and say, "Well, he insisted on skating!" all he wants, but this was a complete failure on the part of Orser, the referee, and the medical personnel. Han Yan going out there was bad enough, but from what I've heard he at least didn't have a head injury. I honestly don't have strong enough language to express this without swearing. I don't know if there's even any recourse for something like this, but if there was I'd want everyone involved to get fined and/or fired. This was completely unacceptable.

Hanyu fell five times. FIVE TIMES, on an incredibly hard surface, going at high speeds. Can you imagine what would have happened if his head had hit the ice again? This is how someone ends up with a traumatic brain injury, or worse. I don't blame Hanyu for any of this -- he's a competitor and obviously wasn't able to think clearly. Someone, ANYONE, needed to step in here.

Ugh. This reminds me of what Brady Hoke, the coach for the Michigan Wolverines football team, did earlier this year when he allowed the quarterback to stay in the game with a concussion because he wanted to play. He should have been fired over it.

I'm just so, so angry. Skating through pain and injuries happens all the time, but you don't play fast and loose with head injuries. Ever.

:thumbsup::scowl:

 

[Scovies]

Han Yan's coach said he was also unconscious for a bit afterwards :disapp:

He was?! Ooof. This keeps getting worse and worse.

 

[alia jackson]

This video around 1:50 showed the impact where Hanyu fell on his chin and the whiplash where his head bounces up

Now I see why he is bleeding from the chin and the head

 

[louisa05]

Given what we know about concussions and brain injury now, the ISU should have a protocol. If a concussion is even suspected, a skater should not be allowed to compete. Period.

If you still think head injuries are a minor issue (not to imply anyone who has posted does...but just in case any lurkers do), watch the Frontline documentary on concussions and football.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/

 

[Skater Boy]

An interview with Kovtun (sorry for the Google translation):

At a press conference after the male victim in the warm-up tournament clash Japanese Yuzuru Hanyu failed to come - they were engaged in emergency physicians. The winner - Maxim Kovtun, who won his first 15 points in the drawing of the "Grand Prix", visibly shaking from all of the experience.

- I totally was not prepared for such an eventuality - admitted skater when the press conference ended - out on the warm-up, felt completely ready for rental, feel every muscle. I bothered the further warmed and Maxim Zavozin - we even had an impromptu fight with him before the workout, so I warmed up and even more angry. Despite the fact that the stage in Shanghai - my first start of the season, I even too much excitement there was, knew that he was ready to hire very good. And now - as you can see, the arms and legs are still shaking, eye twitches. Well I went out on the ice, not having the slightest idea of ​​who like to skate.

- A collision Yuzuru Hanyu and Han Yan on the training saw?

- No. I saw them both at the time when they were lying motionless on the ice. It was awful. Workout stopped immediately, my coach Elena Buyanova yelled to me that I continued to ride, just at this time was to jump one of the jumps, but how to jump when the person is actually on the ice under your feet? Anyway I realized that I could not do it.

Then he stopped the workout, we were sent to the locker room, and no one knew whether the workout continued and that generally happens. Other than that I felt sharp and strong I have become numb feet.

Think about what I need to do on the ice, I could not. Coaches as they could have continued to bother me, familiar feelings and mood seems to be starting to return, but after a few seconds disappeared again.

Plus - it's still my first start. I have never ridden on public his long program entirely. The first launch, in fact, in order and need to understand what went wrong, fix bugs. Well, as it happened in the short program, only after we rolled in fact realized that split second and third rotation jumps - to jump axel in the second half of the program, we still should not have.

Overall, everything turned out as always, but I begin to think that everything will work out, life is once again shoves me with some new side.


Today. Shanghai. Han Yan (left) and Yuzuru Hanyu after the collision. Photo AFP

- So, you're strong enough, just shoves. No wonder they say that the trials are sent a strong man.

- Yes, somehow a bit too much work. I tried so hard sitting at a press conference to keep hands feet and hands pressed down, so as not to be seen as shakes me ... Until now, after shaking. And legs cotton. With that, I went to the ice in a relatively calm state, as I thought.

- Do not think about how to facilitate the program - once with the main contenders happened such trouble?

- I told you - do not know how they rolled. Moreover, it was sure and Yang, and Hanyu skated well - since I went out on the ice. I'm up to its release did not suspect that the collision happened so serious. Reasoned that once a person has not removed, then feels well enough to continue to ride.

The very same "dead" after the first element. Salchow always perceived as a very simple jump, making him in training with virtually no warm-up, more sophisticated and leaving me with him. And here I go, repulsive - and I understand in the air, something gone very wrong. Actually from the beginning things went awry, with the first step, when I somehow became not come on jump on the usual pattern.

Immediately abruptly covered the feeling that I do not want to ride - just want to make it all ended quickly. Thinking not so much about the rental and elements as that do not understand what is happening to me. I do not remember, to be honest, to have ever in my head were so many thoughts at the same time. Had time to think about everything - except what was owed.

- Maybe you're just burned out in anticipation of the start?

- I do not know what exactly caused. The most terrible was the moment when I was preparing to go out, and saw approaching the board, absolutely terrible picture: rink littered with toys, hall stands and roars, and the whole area around the gate covered with blood. And all this - though I do not know what really happened. Mentally, I did not even say, and cried to myself that I have - their own work that I must do all the rest of me just not concerned. And around all the blood ... And we have to somehow collect his three quads in the first box of the season ...

- At some point, it seemed to me that you do not manage dokatat program to end.

- Approximately feelings were with me. And they arose almost immediately. It was really very sad that so much work, and heavy, made in vain. While practicing in the mountains, yet had all these problems with the shoes. No idea what to state all my arguments. I swore, yelled at coaches, crushing board, but worked - ad nauseam. And for what? In order to throw the fight?

That's what I thought, too, until the ride. Began to rebound only in the track. There's a lot of energy-consuming job and housing strays breathing heavily. Since I broke down and it is not until the end of the program dokatat it would be quite wrong.

- I can only repeat the old phrase that a negative experience - it is also the experience.

- That's right. Head I realize that everything that has happened and in particular the fact that we had to go through me - the experience is not just useful, but invaluable. But still very upset.

- What were you thinking while sitting in a kiss - and - cry pending assessments? I suppose, that will remain the first?

- It did not matter. His head had only one thought: "Thank God that this hell finally ended."

I was a little confused; not sure Hanyu was the victim or for that matter Han was the victim. there are no villains from what I can see just an unfortunate accident compounded by bad decisions to skate mad worse by Hanuated scores. I have no idea who should make the final call but ideally ameidcal professional would be best. It would be interesting to think what was going through Han and Hanyu's heads about competing - was it really the GPFinal? Money or what? The real truth not the mediated or tv answer.

 

[creaturelover]

I don't think coaches can pull their students out of competition. They can advise them not to compete, which both Orser and Han Yan's coach did, but at the end of the day Yuzuru and Han Yan are grown men and therefore make their own decisions.

 

[AprilS]

Yuzuru is still a minor in Japan (the age of adulthood is 20). He had to have had a legal guardian/somebody in a guardianship position over him that could have gotten him to withdraw.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Add me to the crowd thinking there should be different rules in place. Frankly the skater should not have to make the decision to skate. Take it out of their hands, they don't get pressured, and they don't look. . . whatever some may call it, if they decide to drop out.

As it stands, I wonder how many young skaters will see this, get injured and thing "If Han and Hanyu can, so can it" I wonder how many will feel they have to skate, I wonder how many parents and coaches will make the comparison. Frankly that sucks.
On top of that, he was well scored. So now there is even the feeling of judges rewarding his "courage". Nope sorry don't like it. If he had skated a routine of all doubles, ie something he could maybe have done safely, that would have been courageous. But skating something you clearly are not up to doing, is just foolish.

And now, on top of it all, they scored Hanyu well enough he is likely more inclined to skate in Japan as he has a chance still to make the GPF. Had he placed lower, he might be more likely to let his body heal. If a doctor recommends he stay off the ice, he likely is more inclined to ignore the doc now that he has a chance still. No chance of making the GPF and a doctor recommendation, and he might be more likely to listen.

 

[Skater Boy]

Here is a video of the entire incident. The collision happens at around 0:45. Ryusa5 posted it originally.

How horrible. I feel so bad for both skaters. I am a little disappointed that no other skater seemed to care or help out ; I understand for the first few seconds they might have missed it but surely they could see blood and bodies on the ice and not one skater seemed to help. Too bad the focus seems to be on Hanyu as the victim and of course this video focussed on OGM Hanyu but Han is not the villain here - neither are = just a horrible accident unless I missed something - I don't think either were more culpable.

 

[sabinbenea]

Don't worry. They had medical help. In communist countries, when is an international event, everyone is engaged. I think they had five ambulances at the door. Hanyu is 20 years old in a month. There are people in this world who have children at this age. There are two athletes who had a spectacular incident. Let's embrace them and wish them all the best. Surely, surely if they were a somewhat serious problem they were retreating. They chose to continue. It is a proof that they are athletes, they respect themselves and their work, they respect the spectators who paid the ticket, and even though they knew they did not have a good performance they can swallow their pride and play its chance. Too bad - the judges, like always in skating, spoil things. If they both occupied the last places nobody would have cared. Hanyu's score is a lack of respect towards Hanyu. He does not need it. He does not need gifts. He is better than this.

 

[ice coverage]

@JohnnyGWeir

So proud of Yuzuru Hanyu and Yan Han for performing through their pain and injuries at Cup of China. They are true champions.
10:46 AM - 8 Nov 2014
https://twitter.com/JohnnyGWeir/status/531155876686884864​

Hmmm. I think Weir's intention is to be supportive -- but I hope that he would have been just as proud of them if they had withdrawn. :think:

(BTW, Weir and Lipinski are not scheduled to appear on tomorrow's taped NBC coverage of Cup of China. Just Gannon and Wilson.)

Thanks golden411! I'll include them in the health thread as well.

Thanks. (I don't feel sure what type of stuff belongs in one thread vs. the other ... or in both. )

 

[makaihime]

How horrible. I feel so bad for both skaters. I am a little disappointed that no other skater seemed to care or help out ; I understand for the first few seconds they might have missed it but surely they could see blood and bodies on the ice and not one skater seemed to help. Too bad the focus seems to be on Hanyu as the victim and of course this video focussed on OGM Hanyu but Han is not the villain here - neither are = just a horrible accident unless I missed something - I don't think either were more culpable.

Well considering its a Japanese newcast I don't blame them for focusing on him. And I don't think anyone blamed either one of them for the incident....

 

[louisa05]

Don't worry. They had medical help. In communist countries, when is an international event, everyone is engaged. I think they had five ambulances at the door. Hanyu is 20 years old in a month. There are people in this world who have children at this age. There are two athletes who had a spectacular incident. Let's embrace them and wish them all the best. Surely, surely if they were a somewhat serious problem they were retreating. They chose to continue. It is a proof that they are athletes, they respect themselves and their work, they respect the spectators who paid the ticket, and even though they knew they did not have a good performance they can swallow their pride and play its chance. Too bad - the judges, like always in skating, spoil things. If they both occupied the last places nobody would have cared. Hanyu's score is a lack of respect towards Hanyu. He does not need it. He does not need gifts. He is better than this.

This is not about their scores or their courage or anyone being respected. This very much looked like both suffered concussions. That is a serious injury. Compounding that brain trauma with skating--including things like spins and the potential for additional falls or head injury is just plain irresponsible. In the U.S., significant research has been done on the impact of head injury in sports over time. It can have severe long term consequences including mental instability, loss of cognitive function, violent impulses and suicide. Go back a page and find the documentary link I posted which details this research. Even ONE concussion can have negative long term consequences and performing immediately after sustaining one could have compounded the future risk for both skaters. That is not acceptable in any sport.

 

[Violet Bliss]

How horrible. I feel so bad for both skaters. I am a little disappointed that no other skater seemed to care or help out ; I understand for the first few seconds they might have missed it but surely they could see blood and bodies on the ice and not one skater seemed to help. Too bad the focus seems to be on Hanyu as the victim and of course this video focussed on OGM Hanyu but Han is not the villain here - neither are = just a horrible accident unless I missed something - I don't think either were more culpable.

The other skaters did the right thing leaving them in the hands of medical personnel. Amateur help might inadvertently cause series injuries.

I don't know if Han has been portrayed as at fault but that would be ridiculous. It was an accident nobody wanted and they were good with each other. At this point we don't even know who has suffered more from the collision or more of a victim.

 

[makaihime]

I don't know if Han has been portrayed as at fault but that would be ridiculous. It was an accident nobody wanted and they were good with each other. At this point we don't even know who has suffered more from the collision or more of a victim.

No one said it was his fault and NO ONE should be comparing who suffered more or "more of a villain" because thats ridiculous. They both had their backs to each other and were going at extremely high speeds. It was an unfortunate accident that cause both skaters to be injured.

 

[Skater Boy]

I don't think coaches can pull their students out of competition. They can advise them not to compete, which both Orser and Han Yan's coach did, but at the end of the day Yuzuru and Han Yan are grown men and therefore make their own decisions.

I think the referee and medical professional should make the final decision. I guess there are legal issues ie. Hanyu or Han could sue for loss of money and opportunity because the ref pulled them on the other hand the COC could be sued for negligence, liability, contributory negligence or whatever (wilfully blind etc). Fair enough the men may not have been in the best frame of mind tomake decisions but there has to be some way of controlling this so it doesnt happen again. It didn't help that Hanyu;s scores were Hanuated so it doesnt' teach kids or other athletes that not everything ends in a fairy tale. And it goes against logic. You get a major injury, skate badly and are rewarded (not saying Hanyu is a bad skater but he had five falls). In reality not that the injured person deserves it thre are usually negatuative results or consequences. Some is pushed, they break their leg they lose money, they can't do things, they miss events, it affects their lifestyle. It's a consequence - not deserved or punishment but it is like the law of nature.

 

[satine]

Thanks. (I don't feel sure what type of stuff belongs in one thread vs. the other ... or in both. )

I think anything relating to the incident itself (videos and photos), people's reports if they were there, fans worrying about them, and updates on how Han & Yuzu are now doing should go in the other thread. Anything that will lead to endless debating via opinions is better here imo :thumbsup:

 

[Skater Boy]

The other skaters did the right thing leaving them in the hands of medical personnel. Amateur help might inadvertently cause series injuries.

I don't know if Han has been portrayed as at fault but that would be ridiculous. It was an accident nobody wanted and they were good with each other. At this point we don't even know who has suffered more from the collision or more of a victim.

Some of they skated around for quite some time and I understand what you are saying but they have checked on the guys OR got off the ice and let the pros deal with the situation. Injured people do not need the "pressure" or skaters flying around especially if they are hazey. Heal well H squared.

 

[sabinbenea]

This is not about their scores or their courage or anyone being respected. This very much looked like both suffered concussions. That is a serious injury. Compounding that brain trauma with skating--including things like spins and the potential for additional falls or head injury is just plain irresponsible. In the U.S., significant research has been done on the impact of head injury in sports over time. It can have severe long term consequences including mental instability, loss of cognitive function, violent impulses and suicide. Go back a page and find the documentary link I posted which details this research. Even ONE concussion can have negative long term consequences and performing immediately after sustaining one could have compounded the future risk for both skaters. That is not acceptable in any sport.

Relax. I don't think Hanuy and Han Yan will commit suicide. Have you ever had an accident? Don't worry. They are well.

 

[creaturelover]

Agree 100%. Final decision should be with medical staff and referee. I am just irritated at people putting blame on the coaches when I believe fault lies with the referee and medical staff.