2014 NHK Trophy Free Dance 11/29

[Mrs. P]

I was so excited when I realized that! Is this the first time the US has swept the GP series in ice dance with podium finishes? Halfway through the season, and ice dance continues to be the US's best discipline.

(Not that many are noticing and are celebrating. *cough*NBC*cough*)

They came close last season. They medaled at every GP except Trophee Eric Bompard, but that's cause there were no USA teams there. But the US did podium at every event where there were U.S. teams.

They also were close in 2008-2009, getting podiums at all but one event (again, Trophee Eric Bompard).

But yes, it looks this is the first GP season of a total US sweep of podium finishes!

 

[sisinka]

Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje:

There are many nuances and details in choreography which goes so well into the music. The whole program is very light and airy looking style (like in case of H&B, but Canadians looks much more mature).

I think that at the end the music is more powerful, so the expression should get rid of the lightness and became more powerful too…

I would say that this program fits more the couple than SD and like SD it grows. Not WOW effect yet.

In my opinion while Gershwin makes a lot of work just because of music which takes you into shaking on the seat itself, it is playful and full of positive mood, Vivaldi is definitelly not the one which make you dance or feel enthusiastic – this I see like the main reason why some people prefer Chock & Bates‘ FD which gives a lot of entertainment just by music itself and Madison‘s flirty moves without need to concentrate on anything else. Vivaldi is not for entertainment, it is an art piece. The same I feel as to talking about FD program of top US and top Canadian couple, the same I feel talking about choreography of those two couples.

Light edges and overall not very good skating skills in both Step Sequences this time, I expect much better edges from top couple. Problems in second Set of Twizzles by Andrew.

 

[sisinka]

Ksenia Monko & Kirill Khaliavin:

The best skating skills here in free dance, great edges, the biggest speed. Better Twizzles then yesterday. Leaning upper body forward is still there, although it improved since last season, there is still a lot to improve.

Powerful music and powerful skating. Gradation to the end.

Great combination lift, no shaky moments although how I mentioned before it is not easy at all to lift tall long-limbed girls.

M/K deservedly got low PCS for that because they are the textbook example this season of why, despite what some people will tell you (at tedious length), ID is more than technique. I don't buy for one nanosecond any "emotion" in that program, because there is NO context or storyline

The story itself…well, Kirill somewhere mentioned that it was inspired by Rodin’s sculpture…probably mainly by Kiss which is visible at the beginning and or at the end and sometimes in the middle of the program. The admirer of Rodin’s art would say you that you can see also inspiration by another sculpture – Clasping Hands - they form an upright Cathedral as a symbol of hope and faith.

If you would look for a story the Kiss sculpture has a story line… "The sculpture, The Kiss, was originally titled Francesca da Rimini, as it depicts the 13th-century Italian noblewoman immortalised in Dante's Inferno who falls in love with her husband Giovanni Malatesta's younger brother Paolo. Having fallen in love while reading the story of Lancelot and Guinevere, the couple are discovered and killed by Francesca's husband. In the sculpture, the book can be seen in Paolo's hand. The lovers' lips do not actually touch in the sculpture, suggesting that they were interrupted and met their demise without their lips ever having touched."

But because choreographer was Sergei Pethukov whose works for Denkova & Staviski and Domnina & Shabalin were world-known and always very original, I am not sure whether this story would be enough for him. He was always an artist which surprised many people with his own approach. I better expect that he was inspired by Rodin’s sculptures and created some abstract dance about it – maybe about hope and faith, power and will or something like that.

Monko/Khaliavin's technique is not that good. OK nice edges but where is easy flow and acceleration? Hawayek/Baker sometimes doesn't have good edges, they don't have ice coverage yet but their skating has flow. It is important to have deep edges+effortless glide+control+power+speed+accelaration+ice coverage+one foot skating+knee action all together.

To Elif: M&K has great Skating Skills.

You can’s compare tall and long-limbed ones (Ksenia or Katia Bobrova) or heavily built ones (Kirill or Nikita) with tiny ones. Meryl and girls around her heights will always look more airy and light moving across the ice. Watching tall skaters there is always a feeling that they are putting much more energy into skating, but this idea comes from their bigger heights and weights, not from poorer skating skills. Weaver & Poje get light look mainly while jumping, in normal skating movements they also suffer from not having the body build of Meryl and Charlie. Just compare how easy was Tessa moving when she was 18 and compare it with last season with more tall and fully mature body. Compare Satoko Miahara with Victoria Helgesson – how easy they move across the ice.

Tall skaters will never skate as effortless looking like tiny ones, that is normal thanks to their body building. If you would compare Navka and Krylova with Kaitlin Hawayek – you would also get the impression that Russian beauties are moving across the ice with more effort than Canadian teenage girl, but to think that Kaitlin really have better Skating Skills then those dance queens would be the biggest joke on the planet.

 

[sisinka]

Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker:

Nice to watch, light and airy looking (like many people described), improved since Cup of Russia. Great start for the first senior season.

Surprising but this looks to be the only couple where many people’s opinion is almost the identical (while there is a fight as to other couples from both Europe and America).

Some arm movements were not finished and some Kaitlin’s movements were not elegant, I would recommed a friendly conversation with a ballet teacher – especially soft music needs beautiful arm movements.

Technically the couple has a lot of work to do, once again Piruette by Kaitlin in second Set of Twizzles (judges didn’t mention), not clean Double Twizzle by Jean-Luc at the end of Diagonal Step Sequence (skaters need clean Twizzle or Double Twizzle to get at least Level 2 in Step Sequence), many light edges.

I am very curious about the fight for the third spot at US Nationals, personally I would like to see both H&B and H&D at World Championships, but unfortunately I think that one of those teams will be missing there.

 

[sisinka]

Penny Coomes & Nicholas Buckland:

I don’t know why they lost concentration, personally I think that they had no reason for it – judges wanted them in Final putting them high component score and GOE in SD and high Component score in FD too (the second highest Skating Skills was a joke), their Personal best was much higher than M&K’s 92 points. Maybe the idea of first Grand Prix Final destroyed the concentration, it is a pity, the doors were wide open.

It was not only Step Sequence, but lost levels in lifts, not fixed position and enough turns in position in spin, three turns and loss of balance in Twizzles by Penny, loss of balance and hand hold in Transitions also. Overall the presentation was weaker then at Cup of Russia.

Nicholas needs to learn get back into the program much faster no matter what happened, there is no time to think what happened in those moments, seconds are running and despite the unexpected fall every skater must continue as fast as possible.

Now the best thing after this is probably to analyse the mistakes, discover what happened and WHY it happened, learn from this experience and move forward.

To finish on more positive note, the British’s coach is Evgeni Platov (he will forgive me) – great skater and two-times Olympic Champions…and even he was able to produce such things…https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dQitFgVsZt8#t=11 …and when he came at the the Olympics in Nagano, he not only didn’t repeat the fall, but also won his second Olympic title with Grishuk…

 

[sisinka]

Victoria Sinitsina & Nikita Katsalapov:

I realised at Cup of Russia already that this couple is not a team yet…and this opinion was only supported here especially during free skate when first big mistake caused that they became two single skaters concentrating mainly on themselves, trying to survive and forgetting about the second person on the ice.

Everything was wrong from the beginning…in opening seconds when Nikita lifts Victoria she lost balance in landing, then when she made a three turn to get under Nikita’s arm she slightly lost balance again…

Vika once again didn’t catch her blade in time – during first half of rotation – this time she was covered by Nikita, but in slow motion repetition this picture is done in moment when the couple already made one full rotation in the opening Set of Twizzles – and Vika’s fingers are still opened, so she was again late…

… Nikita fighting in the second Set and Vika fighting in the third Set… how could judges give +1 and 0 is a real mystery….but maybe it was a rescue action after missed elements.

Another problem in Transitions after Twizzles when they almost hit and then really hit into their upper bodies twice in a row while skating closer…simply there were not only falls, lost Levels but many many other misunderstandings during their skate, out of synchro.

First part of Circular Step Sequence with quite good edges, second part with light edges or no edges, Diagonal Step Sequence with some good and some not good turns, but it was the same like at Cup of Russia.

But from Technical point of view nothing what can’t be corrected by time.

When a fall happened mainly Nikita gave up…when problems appear the character will show if you are fighter or not…this is not the first time when Nikita is connected with situation when giving up behaviour caused that the rest of the program was completely lost…

I would really like to understand what happened with the Vik/Nikita lifts.

In the first lift: Victoria was not strengthened enough coming into the lift – it makes partners work much harder. Nikita then created poor crouching position with back side too much backward and for the whole lift he was not able to balance on his feet well, finally completely loosing balance, Vika also touched his head while moving with free leg, but it didn't cause the loss of balance…I think this Nikita’s not balanced position caused the fall, but Vika also made a mistake in execution of the lift. It is hard to say if Nikita could do anything more to help her not to fall so hardly, he at least didn’t fall on her, he kept most of his weights on his arms.

In the second lift: I think that Nikita had bad timing, I don’t think that this was new lift entry, Elif. This is not needed, they lost Level at Cup od Russia because Vika didn’t keep difficult position for 3 seconds. One leg entry to the lift is not needed for this while the lift can last 6 seconds, so there is space to lift one leg for 3 seconds. I think that Nikita simply didn’t concentrate well and went from lunge too early and lifted free leg too early when Vika only stepped on his thigh.

During whole dance it was surprisingly Vika who got back into the dance more quickly and even forced Nikita to come back faster while Nikita like Nicholas couldn’t believe the situation and wasted time.

What I REALLY didn’t like was their behaviour AFTER the dance. Partner can never let his lady fall down! Unfortunately it always happens more than once in career of every dancer, especially with acrobatic lifts. I only remember Oksana Domnina noticing in interview and being grateful to Maxim Shabalin that he never let her fall.

Once it happens and partner can’t save his lady, then he should do anything to support her, excuse to her, make sure whether she is OK and simply jump around her for at least next 24 hours because frankly no matter what lady did wrong (if she did anything wrong), he was the one who failed and was not able to protect her.

I realise that Vika was the one who was mentally stronger during the skate, but it doesn’t mean that both Nikita and Zueva should behave like nothing happened. If I didn’t see a program and watched moments after the skate only, I would never had an idea that Vika fall. Watching Kiss and Cry moments Zueva was smiling nervously and thinking about marks, Nikita didn’t understand what happened…sorry, but there are moments when some things are more important than marks…the most affected was Vika because of hard fall, not Nikita’s ego or Zueva’s reputation. I was very dissapointed with their behaviour. No matter how many medals Vika doesn’t have in comparison with Nikita, they should care about her much better.

 

[slider11]

I agree with your assessment of Hawayek and Baker, sisinka. This couple has personality on the ice - a real spark. I agree they have some work to do in certain elements. I also hope that Kaitlin does not get any bigger and maybe Jean-Luc adds some musculature to support her. They remind me a bit of Davis and White - not only physically but in the story they tell on the ice.

 

[dorispulaski]

Actually there is a context to it. Their FS is inspired by Rodin's statues, especially the one known as "The Kiss".

Using a statue (or statues) as the context for a dance is a generally bad idea. Dances are not static, as sculptures are, so the audience has to be told what the context is-and the PCS rules say that if there is a story (and there needn't be one) it should no require explanation. So this Rodin context is not a plus.

If they want to be statues, they could wear those white body socks, as Kaitlyn Weaver did in the Statue Come to Life/Humanity in Motion FD. However, white is not a good contrast with the boards and ice. Again a bad idea.

A better fitting context for this program without changing anything, would be, since they have black outfits, that they are Odin's two ravens flying over a battlefield, swooping down and picking out the eyes (and if they are merciful, the ears too, considering the Sarabande arrangement) of the dead and dying.

But perhaps I should not be too hard on Sarabande with Drum Machine. Unfortunately, drum machines have a long history in ice dance; they are used to insure the program does not earn a deduction for not having a clear beat.

My critiquing style is based on uhm... it derives from errr.... is based on late Van Gogh paintings. That's it. Yeah.

When he was cutting his ear off yeah, I'm from the same school of criticism

 

[sisinka]

And what their team has done to one of Handel's most beautiful pieces of music is criminal. Eurotrash Disco Handel.

I didn't notice that skaters would change Handel's classical piece of music into this by themselves. Originally the music group is called Globus and this is from their album Epicon. Johnny Weir used this in his LP and Gregory & Pethukov also chose this music like a part of their FD in 2007.

How is your personal preference of the classical music versus modern arrangement of classical music connected with skating / dancing / dance couple's quality?

 

[sisinka]

They do look more like pairs than ice dancers. They are too far apart from each other throughout the program. Their hips are never close together in partner holds. Have no idea why they have been getting such high marks.

This goes into direction of Waltz holds, not Killian or Foxtrot holds.

Yes, dancers should be skating very close to each other like in ballroom....I agree. So let's be fair and criticise all couples with hips spacing -

... starting with Sinitsina & Katsalapov, coming back to past to I&K, less criticism to I&Z, big criticism to Papadakis & Cozeron, Chock & Bates, Stepanova & Bukin and Coomes & Buckland (who can have big spacing between hips even in Foxtrot position).

 

[Alex D]

Thanks to those providing so much detail, I only saw it on stream and enjoy these live reports. I need a dictionary to understand most of the technical "terms" though but still thanks a lot I hope to gain such knowledge one day as well

May I ask if those who provide these analysís were skating themselves or did you pick this up while just watching?

 

[dorispulaski]

Chock and Bates are skating closer together this season. It is one of the improvements they have made this year-not that they couldn't do better, but I appreciate the effort. But, Yes, M&K are not the only team with holds you could drive the Zamboni through.

 

[elif]

In the second lift: I think that Nikita had bad timing, I don’t think that this was new lift entry, Elif. This is not needed, they lost Level at Cup od Russia because Vika didn’t keep difficult position for 3 seconds. One leg entry to the lift is not needed for this while the lift can last 6 seconds, so there is space to lift one leg for 3 seconds. I think that Nikita simply didn’t concentrate well and went from lunge too early and lifted free leg too early when Vika only stepped on his thigh.

No. If problem is Victoria's difficult position at CoR, lift must be level2, not level3. For level3 both skaters must sustain difficult position for 3 seconds. If you have difficult entry feature, than it is level4. I think problem is entry feature.

Nikita begin lift with lunge, than he move into that pose than he did one foot. If this is acceptable, Igor would have find before Zoueva, believe me.

From ISU Handbook:

entry from a Difficult Position for the lifting partner (to be considered only for Stationary,Straight Line or Curve Lift): the Difficult Position must be reached before the lifted partner leaves the ice, and, subsequently, must be
- continuously sustained as the Difficult Position considered and given credit for Level, or
- changed without any intermediate position into the Difficult Position considered and given credit for Level;

 

[TarAncalime]

This goes into direction of Waltz holds, not Killian or Foxtrot holds.

Yes, dancers should be skating very close to each other like in ballroom....I agree. So let's be fair and criticise all couples with hips spacing -

... starting with Sinitsina & Katsalapov, coming back to past to I&K, less criticism to I&Z, big criticism to Papadakis & Cozeron, Chock & Bates, Stepanova & Bukin and Coomes & Buckland (who can have big spacing between hips even in Foxtrot position).

Hmm that is a point....but Guillaume is a very exiting skater indeed and perhaps it is survival technique by Gabrielle to have distance...;-))))) LOL. But perhaps it is better to see when the season short dance is Waltz, then the couples have to get close contact ;-)

What about the Shibutamis? Their free dance is a waltz...have to watch it again and check out!

 

[rain]

Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje:

There are many nuances and details in choreography which goes so well into the music. The whole program is very light and airy looking style (like in case of H&B, but Canadians looks much more mature).

I think that at the end the music is more powerful, so the expression should get rid of the lightness and became more powerful too…

I would say that this program fits more the couple than SD and like SD it grows. Not WOW effect yet.

In my opinion while Gershwin makes a lot of work just because of music which takes you into shaking on the seat itself, it is playful and full of positive mood, Vivaldi is definitelly not the one which make you dance or feel enthusiastic – this I see like the main reason why some people prefer Chock & Bates‘ FD which gives a lot of entertainment just by music itself and Madison‘s flirty moves without need to concentrate on anything else. Vivaldi is not for entertainment, it is an art piece. The same I feel as to talking about FD program of top US and top Canadian couple, the same I feel talking about choreography of those two couples.

Light edges and overall not very good skating skills in both Step Sequences this time, I expect much better edges from top couple. Problems in second Set of Twizzles by Andrew.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I love Vivaldi's Four Seasons — one of my favourite pieces of classical music, and find it extremely entertaining all on its own. I also find this program to it and the choreography to be a masterpiece. It wowed me the very first time I saw it and it wowed me again today. Still a few improvements to be made, but I expect that at this point in the season — it's actually good to have something to strive for. And yes, I enjoy this better than C/B.

 

[Alba]

Me too, I find it hard to consider C/B a dance team. They have an interesting choreography but honestly I don't see so much "dance" with them. And don't understand their marks from past season.

I fully agree.

Another dance team who's not growing on my this season is Nelli and Alex's one. I'm a bit tired of "too much" originality, for me this program doesn't have a sense and doesn't help them in technical aspects. I see a decline every new season..

Exactly. :thumbsup:
Besides, I really can't stand that concept of Swan. Prostituing to pay the drug to their pushers?
No, sorry. That's too much for me and I find it ugly. :disapp:

 

[sisinka]

No. If problem is Victoria's difficult position at CoR, lift must be level2, not level3. For level3 both skaters must sustain difficult position for 3 seconds. If you have difficult entry feature, than it is level4. I think problem is entry feature.

Nikita begin lift with lunge, than he move into that pose than he did one foot. If this is acceptable, Igor would have find before Zoueva, believe me.

You are right, sorry! :hopelessness:

 

[slider11]

Thank you, sisinka, for a very telling analysis of the Vika/Nikita performance. You said it best in the first sentence...this couple is not yet a team.

 

[slider11]

If C/B is Coomes and Buckland (not Chock and Bates) then I must respectfully disagree. I thought they took a big step this year with this FD. Every time I watch it I become more engaged. Their technical abilities, I think, are decent and they really poured on the artistry. It is certainly different than Hawayek and Baker with their lyrical flow but I like Coomes and Buckland. I absolutely agree that last night's FP was bad not only for the falls but for the other smaller mistakes. 77 seemed harsh to me but I guess they didn't deserve the podium. Let's see how they rebound for Europeans and Worlds.

 

[Alba]

I didn't notice that skaters would change Handel's classical piece of music into this by themselves. Originally the music group is called Globus and this is from their album Epicon. Johnny Weir used this in his LP and Gregory & Pethukov also chose this music like a part of their FD in 2007.

How is your personal preference of the classical music versus modern arrangement of classical music connected with skating / dancing / dance couple's quality?

I have to say that the version of Handel in this case was horrible. Absolutely ugly.
Whoever did it was criminal. :disapp:

If C/B is Coomes and Buckland (not Chock and Bates) then I must respectfully disagree. I thought they took a big step this year with this FD.

Yes they did and I like the program. Do they look more like pairs rather than dance? Absolutely.