2014 Olympics Mens Free Skate

[onodian]

I find it utterly ridiculous that the biggest spread in the PCS scores from any given skater in the final is 1 point apart (transition-choreo for Misha Ge, 6.07/7.07). In other words, NOBODY has, let's say skating skills worth of a 5 but his interpretation was wonderful so it was an 8. Or a potentially great choreo (9) that he performed poorly (4/5). Nobody. If your choreo's a 7, your performance of it is going to be kind of a 7 (7.25, 7.39, 6.82). This makes absolutely, and positively, no sense.

The way I see it, PCS is the way to twitch the scores to have whomever you want come out where you want them to. It sure as hell doesn't seem to reflect the actual skate.

 

[Kalina]

whole post

:thumbsup:

 

[WeakAnkles]

Hello Weak ankles

goATD.Net
the above link will take you to a live sports streaming site.
When figure skating is on Robin Cousins and Sue Barker do the commentary.
I watched the mens programme in Japan on my TV with my computer streaming the BBC commentary.
I know it is too late for the mens competiton, but I hope it is useful for you for the ladies and the Ice Dance competition.

Hi channah. Welcome to the wacky world of GS!

Thanks for the info. There's a tradition here that when an event starts and someone finds a link to a working stream, they'll post the link in the thread (and people will respond if the link is geoblocked for their country). That way everyone has a chance to see the event live. Please feel free to keep the tradition alive!

 

[Meoima]

Lame. I say that as a skating fan, someone who enjoys the sport, watches figure skating videos, goes to skating competitions and skating shows. It's just an opinion that differs from yours. Deal with it.

Competition is doing your best to win. If you were in their shoes, you would do it anyways. Common sense. Deal with it.

Someone is way too defensive. If you only care if your skater wins, fine. I care about everything, not just the jumps, but the performance and the program, and that wasn't there for me.
And the sport is more than just getting the highest score possible. What does that meaningless number mean for all skaters except the top 3? That number, their score and their placement, is all they get. But if they give a great performance, even if they didn't get the highest score, they can leave a huge impact on the audience. See Jeremy Abbott.

Say that to the judges, I am not saying I only care about who win or lose, I am taking about what all people do if they were in these skaters' shoes. They are athletes, not just artists, okay? In competitions, they do everything to win, that's okay as long as they don't cheat. These skaters just choose different approaches to win, that's it.

Someone who knows this very well is Misha Ge. A very entertaining skater who really enjoys being on the ice. Won't ever get the highest TES, but the audience loves him because he loves being there. And the judges do reward him in PCS for this.

All those elements are for the scores, even PCS are scores, can you say scores are not important? I never say PCS is not as important as TES, I think they are equally important. This is sport, not just art, scores determine whether you win or lose, and as competitors, all these skaters know that, maybe more than you.

Rather, I think you're too biased for Hanyu.

Lol, did I say I like Chan? Despite all his flaws, I still think he is at his prime, what a pity he gave the gold back, because why, I don't know. All he needed was just to skate clean.

I didn't see this "nerve of steel" in Hanyu, nor do I think he was really fighting any more or less than Chan.

People see it, you don't, okay? Deal with it.

Yuzuru Hanyu won an Olympic gold medal with a 2-fall FS that was less than inspiring or exciting. I'm disappointed in him, and quite frankly, I'm disappointed in the entire competition.

His SP was exciting, I hate the music, but he did well. His LP was not good, but none of these skaters were really good at their LP. You are disappointed in this competition, okay. But people do see these skaters did try their best. Not really good but their performances were qualified. This is not a piano competition where the judges could decide there is no winner when they think all the participants are not good enough. They choose the winner based on scores, simple as that.

 

[jaylee]

But nobody said he should have ranked higher? FlattFan didn't imply that at all, so there's no need for you tear him down just to prove your point (=his PCS being rightfully low). Again, as it is a point nobody disagrees with, I'm not either, I didn't even say his performance was good. I'm just saying how you tried to prove that point about his PCS was unnecessarily aggressive and sounds like bashing - please follow along.
Unless you think the performance was so bad, there needs to be a special rule for him that cuts down his TES according to the PCS too

I said his performance at 2013 Worlds was bad. It was. I didn't tear him down. FlattFan countered that he had the highest TES, as if that was a counterpoint. So I had to elaborate on why his performance was bad.

It wasn't bashing. That's your mis-interpretation. Chill out.

And that you were there changes what, please? Should we have told him before that because you're there he has no right to be injured? Just because you are there he owns you to skate the way you want him to? Who's the one on the high horse?

You need to stop twisting my words around and inventing bizarre interpretations of them. I was there and that was my experience watching Hanyu, a skater I was entirely neutral about before that competition, and I had every right to react to his performance the way I did.

You have every right to think his performance was disappointing

No duh.

and you can say you didn't like it how often you want to - but you made it out to be much worse then it was, as if it was some attitude problem or something because he simply decided not to care about the audience. That's something very different - and no, you don't have the right to make that judgement about him (and that arrogance is what I'm getting so worked up over).

Hanyu is capable of projecting and connecting with the audience, that's obvious. He didn't in the FS at 2013 Worlds. I never said he had an attitude problem, that is YOU overreacting again. I said it's a weakness of his--and it IS, not just at 2013 Worlds, but elsewhere.

I get it, you paid money to be there, it's disappointing if the skaters don't deliver (I was at TEB and I felt very disappointed with Han Yan - but I'll always admire how he fought through even when he was visibly sick). So your 'backstory' doesn't change anything for me, sorry, it somehow can't compete with the 'backstory' of someone who dedicates his life to this being sick and injured while dealing with the pressure of being a medal favorite for a big event for the first time in his life and maybe losing Japans 3rd Olympic spot. Probably my proportions here are just a little screwed.

Actually, neither Hanyu's backstory nor mine is relevant. But why are you insisting that I needed to know Hanyu's backstory, and get mad at me for supposedly "judging" him, whereas you pass judgment on me without knowing mine? (I didn't detail it, btw, and I didn't mention what it cost me to be there--you're the one bringing up money.)

My backstory provides context, by the way, so that you know my judgment of Hanyu's performance (not his attitude, like you allege) is based on being there live.

(There even are things that make sense to me as an 'explanation'; like Dai and Akko each nearly having a decade of experience more than Hanyu, so maybe they learned to deal with those situations better while Hanyu didn't until now? I don't think Daisuke was as great a performer as he is now if you look 10 years back. Both of them gave bad performances, but in Akikos case, why? Was Akko injured? Why is it fine she skated 'bad' when there was 'no reason' for it, but an injured and sick Hanyu needs to have an explanation for not projecting well enough? Blah.)

Are you so illogical that you don't get why Daisuke and Akiko were cited? It's not just about age/experience. I'll give you another example--Jason Brown has better connection with the audience and recovers better from a mistake than Hanyu. I never needed an explanation about Hanyu not projecting well, I just said he didn't, and everyone jumped in crying excuses to defend their precious baby Hanyu. Lord.

Whatever, who cares what I think. But I'm not the only one less than impressed with Hanyu. There are some backhanded compliments towards Hanyu mixed in with praise from ice dancers Isabella and Anastasia Cannuscio:

http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=articles&id=2014ogmenfs-cannuscio

Yuzuru Hanyu (JPN) 1st
Yuzuru is another man that we would like to see a little bit more all around skating from. His jumps are absolutely unreal, and it looks as if they come so easily to him! If he had a little bit more substance and choreography he really could be an amazing show stopping skater. He has all of the talent and potential to keep improving and growing!

Anastasia: He competed at Skate America the same year Colin and I did, and I just remember so clearly him giving up in his long program. He skated an amazing record breaking short, and when his long didn't start off perfectly he just gave up. For me, that is something that really makes me lose respect for an athlete. So, being able to watch him fight until the end of this program really showed me how much he has grown, and that he is an athlete to be respected. He won the first men's figure skating gold for Japan, and that is absolutely incredible. Being able to accomplish something that huge at the age of nineteen is absolutely incredible!

Funny, none of the compliments are about anything other than 1) his jumping and 2) winning the OGM, not the performances themselves. (ETA: Oh, and he's a fighter. Yay! But he didn't used to be one.) But I'm sure folks will say that anyone who says anything critical of Hanyu's performances is a basher and being arrogant with their opinions, etc, etc.

 

[chloepoco]

Whatever, who cares what I think. But I'm not the only one less than impressed with Hanyu. There are some backhanded compliments towards Hanyu mixed in with praise from ice dancers Isabella and Anastasia Cannuscio:

http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=articles&id=2014ogmenfs-cannuscio



Funny, none of the compliments are about anything other than 1) his jumping and 2) winning the OGM, not the performances themselves. But I'm sure folks will say that anyone who says anything critical of Hanyu's performances is a basher and being arrogant with their opinions, etc, etc.

Seriously? You quote two ice dancers and think they speak for everyone?

I'm sure there are many people who feel as you do, and just as many people who feel the complete opposite.

 

[Angryyew]

Sandra is a little more tolerable. Scott is like the biggest drama queen who doesn't bring anything informative to the audience.

I loved Brian Boitano's commentaries, I wish he would do these.

I like Brian also. I thought Ryan Bradley was decent during the GP events as well, though that may partially be my relief at getting a break from Peter Carruthers.

I like Johnny & Tara and as far as obligatory color guys go, Terry Gannon isn't so bad. The only thing Scott, Sandra & Tom have going for them is they aren't Tim Dagget & Al Trautwig.

 

[Meoima]

Funny, none of the compliments are about anything other than 1) his jumping and 2) winning the OGM, not the performances themselves. But I'm sure folks will say that anyone who says anything critical of Hanyu's performances is a basher and being arrogant with their opinions, etc, etc.

Who ever said Hanyu's LP was flawless? He fell twice and it affected his scores, if it weren't for Chan's sloppiness (talking about this made me just UGHR), he wouldn't get the gold. Hanyu won, based on the scores, and people did see him fight for it in THIS competition. I am not refering to other competitions. And, even these skaters, Isabella and Anastasia Cannuscio (who you were quoting) said this:

So, being able to watch him fight until the end of this program really showed me how much he has grown, and that he is an athlete to be respected.

You don't see him trying, but apparently these people also see it, okay?

I couldn't agree more with their ending:

A huge congratulations to all of the medalists! While the event left us wanting more, you definitely earned your spots, and you are forever not only Olympians, but Olympic medalists!

Apparently, if BOTH of them were skating at their best, and neither of them fell, would you say otherwise? I don't know. I can't tell because that didn't happened. I would say Chan had more chances here but he sucked at his LP also. As for the upcoming events, Chan is smother, and he is at his prime, I do hope he would be at his best again to defend his world title.

 

[Mrs. P]

Whatever, who cares what I think. But I'm not the only one less than impressed with Hanyu. There are some backhanded compliments towards Hanyu mixed in with praise from ice dancers Isabella and Anastasia Cannuscio:

http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=articles&id=2014ogmenfs-cannuscio

He competed at Skate America the same year Colin and I did, and I just remember so clearly him giving up in his long program. He skated an amazing record breaking short, and when his long didn't start off perfectly he just gave up. For me, that is something that really makes me lose respect for an athlete. So, being able to watch him fight until the end of this program really showed me how much he has grown, and that he is an athlete to be respected. He won the first men's figure skating gold for Japan, and that is absolutely incredible. Being able to accomplish something that huge at the age of nineteen is absolutely incredible!

Funny, none of the compliments are about anything other than 1) his jumping and 2) winning the OGM, not the performances themselves. (ETA: Oh, and he's a fighter. Yay! But he didn't used to be one.) But I'm sure folks will say that anyone who says anything critical of Hanyu's performances is a basher and being arrogant with their opinions, etc, etc.

Um...I don't understand how that's backhanded. I was at that Skate America that Anastasia and Yuzuru was in and I agree with her that Yuzuru basically had a meltdown at the FS of that competition. He just completely fell apart. She's saying that he's a stronger skater and she's impressed with how he fought through the rest of the program.

That said I do think Yuzuru's performance was sloppy and very jump-oriented. Patrick's program was much more cohesive despite the mistakes. I think a case could have been made for Patrick to win the FS with Yuzuru's PCS marks a a bit lower. (I mean Jason Brown only got 84 and from what I heard from seniorita, it sounded like he still performed!). But Yuzuru, I think still deserved to win overall.

 

[will74lsn]

Although the free skate was everything but inspiring, there were not many falls; 13 in total. In 2010 Olympics there were also 13 falls and in 2006 18 falls. Actually, the short program had proportionally more falls: 10. In 2010 falls were only 6 and in 2006 they were 8.
It would be interesting to compare the GOEs and see for instance how many negative GOEs were given as compared to previous olympic competitions. Yet, this kind of comparisons should be interpreted with caution since how judges used the GOEs has also changed over the years.

 

[jaylee]

Seriously? You quote two ice dancers and think they speak for everyone?

Lord. Learn to read. I never said they spoke for everyone, just said I wasn't alone. Sheesh.

Um...I don't understand how that's backhanded. I was at that Skate America that Anastasia and Yuzuru was in and I agree with her that Yuzuru basically had a meltdown at the FS of that competition. He just completely fell apart. She's saying that he's a stronger skater and she's impressed with how he fought through the rest of the program.

This part is especially backhanded: "If he had a little bit more substance and choreography he really could be an amazing show stopping skater. He has all of the talent and potential to keep improving and growing!"

That's just brutal. Not the expected compliment of a newly crowned Olympic gold medalist.

You don't see him trying, but apparently some people see it, okay?

Actually, regarding his Olympics FS, I said I didn't see him try "more or less" compared to Chan. So it's not that I didn't see him try at all.

Regarding his 2013 Worlds, that's where I felt Hanyu did not focus on projection or connection with the audience in the FS. Separate issue.

Apparently, if BOTH of them were skating at their best, and neither of them fall, would you say otherwise? I don't know. I can't tell because that didn't happened. I would say Chan has more chances here but he sucked at his LP also. As for the upcoming events, Chan is smother, and he is at his prime, I do hope he would be at his best again to defend his world title.

If both were at their best with these current programs, than Chan would win PCS by a mile. Hanyu's long program is blah.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I said his performance at 2013 Worlds was bad.

It's weird I have to remind you of that, but you didn't:

I strongly disagree that Hanyu deserves this as much as Chan. Yes, Hanyu performed year after year, day after day--but he didn't even make it to Worlds in 2011. He's a one-time world bronze medalist. He was terrible at 2013 Worlds. How did he deserve this as much as Chan?

How is that the same? And when someone answered he still had the highest TES, you started going "I agree with him geeting the lowest PCS" - but that's a different argument.
Even then, saying a performance is bad and getting into a whole paragraph how everything sucked, stunk, was too little, no connection ect. is not really the same. If you just would have said "the performance was bad" and worded it differently instead of going overboard and exaggerating, probably nobody whould have said anything.

He didn't in the FS at 2013 Worlds. I never said he had an attitude problem, that is YOU overreacting again.

Aha. So something like "no connection to the audience" and "he just wanted to get the jumps done" doesn't imply that at all. I'm not sure if attitude is the right word to choose for this, but it sure makes it sound like you think he only cared for his TES points and not at all for the audience. That is a judgement about him you can't make.

Actually, neither Hanyu's backstory nor mine is relevant.

That must be a bad joke?! The fact that he was sick and injured is absolutly irrelevant to the fact he couldn't perform his best? Now that statement is terrible, not him.

Funny, none of the compliments are about anything other than 1) his jumping and 2) winning the OGM, not the performances themselves. (ETA: Oh, and he's a fighter. Yay! But he didn't used to be one.) But I'm sure folks will say that anyone who says anything critical of Hanyu's performances is a basher and being arrogant with their opinions, etc, etc.

So what? Nobody said you have to like Hanyu, and I don't get what supposedly sounds 'backhanded' about this. There are probably quite a few people who don't like him as a performer, and I don't mind (nor do I think 'the people who came to protect their baby' here do). You won't get out of this by simply labelling everyone else as an uber.

I'll leave the rest of the little arguments because that's getting very unnecessary. But I agree with at least one of the things you said - I'm sure you know yourself which on that is

 

[Meoima]

That's just brutal. Not the expected compliment of a newly crowned Olympic gold medalist.

I don't see it brutal, there is some back handed comments but he is qualified enough. You see the scores, Hanyu's highest was his jumps and he likes jumping, it seems so. Chan also tops at other elements that are always his strength.
If jumping is his strength, then why shouldn't he exploit it? You are so aggressive, it makes you seem to be a hatter, based on your bad experiment with his performance in the past. I get it, But people chance, you should be more forgiven, then. Even Chan could improve and change his style if he wants (though I don't see why would he change).

Actually, regarding his Olympics FS, I said I didn't see him try "more or less" compared to Chan. So it's not that I didn't see him try at all.

Lots of my friends were mad at Chan, seriously because he knew that Hanyu did not do a good job at the LP, he should have known to do it better than slumbering, he was having advantages because his rival fell twice. Chan was having MORE CHANCES than Hanyu, who let the door very open for him. So people have the rights to criticize Chan of not fighting.

If both were at their best with these current programs, than Chan would win PCS by a mile. Hanyu's long program is blah.

I DO think so but apparently he did not. Some people are mad at him over this because technically it look like he gave up the gold, not Hanyu's fault for getting the gold while his rival gave it up.

 

[Mrs. P]

This part is especially backhanded: "If he had a little bit more substance and choreography he really could be an amazing show stopping skater. He has all of the talent and potential to keep improving and growing!"

That's just brutal. Not the expected compliment of a newly crowned Olympic gold medalist.

YMMV, but I don't see that as brutal or backhanded. They simply saying he has more room to grow, something that nobody really debates. I don't think any will argue that that he has arrived as a skater by any means.

And saying he needs improvement isn't the same as saying "I'm not impressed by Hanyu's performance." They probably didn't absolutely love it, but I don't get the sense they were unimpressed either.

Also a thing to consider is that those two are speaking from an Ice Dance perspective. So they're going to look at things that are of value to Ice Dancers - edges, fluidity, speed, etc. Patrick has all of those things in spades.

But again, that's just me.

 

[Meoima]

YMMV, but I don't see that as brutal or backhanded. They simply saying he has more room to grow, something that nobody really debates. I don't think any will argue that that he has arrived as a skater by any means.

And saying he needs improvement isn't the same as saying "I'm not impressed by Hanyu's performance." They probably didn't absolutely love it, but I don't get the sense they were unimpressed either.

Also a thing to consider is that those two are speaking from an Ice Dance perspective. So they're going to look at things that are of value to Ice Dancers - edges, fluidity, speed, etc. Patrick has all of those things in spades.

But again, that's just me.

It's not just you. I think so, too.

 

[MaiKatze]

Lots of my friends were mad at Chan, seriously because he knew that Hanyu did not do a good job at the LP, he should have known to do it better than slumbering, he was having advantages because his rival fell twice. Chan was having MORE CHANCES than Hanyu, who let the door very open for him. So people have the rights to criticize Chan of not fighting.

I wonder if Yuzuru had skated better, would Chan have bombed as well? Or would that have made him fight for it? Did the fact that he had this gold medal almost handed to him make him unravel? I understand your friends feelings. It was all so weird. Patrick didn't even need to be clean, I think he could've made with one or two mistakes even, on his nemesis the axel. Why did it have to end like this? I'll never understand.

 

[jaylee]

How is that the same? And when someone answered he still had the highest TES, you started going "I agree with him geeting the lowest PCS" - but that's a different argument.
Even then, saying a performance is bad and getting into a whole paragraph how everything sucked, stunk, was too little, no connection ect. is not really the same. If you just would have said "the performance was bad" and worded it differently instead of going overboard and exaggerating, probably nobody whould have said anything.

Are you crazy? You think the statement "He was terrible at 2013 Worlds" and "I said his performance at 2013 Worlds was bad" are not the same thing?

I didn't go overboard or exaggerate, I had to back up my opinion with support. You think that's "tearing him down" or "bashing" just because it was critical? You are just way, way overreacting because you are way too sensitive to every critical thing said about Hanyu. So it's better if I said his performance was bad, and didn't offer any reasons why? I shouldn't have to word things so differently just because you're overly sensitive.

Aha. So something like "no connection to the audience" and "he just wanted to get the jumps done" doesn't imply that at all. I'm not sure if attitude is the right word to choose for this, but it sure makes it sound like you think he only cared for his TES points and not at all for the audience. That is a judgement about him you can't make.

No, attitude wasn't the right word, and again, you're just overreacting.

That must be a bad joke?! The fact that he was sick and injured is absolutly irrelevant to the fact he couldn't perform his best? Now that statement is terrible, not him.

Ugh. No. It's irrelevant to an assessment of his performance. Were the judges supposed to give him higher PCS than he deserved just because he was ill? Was I supposed to force myself to enjoy his performance more because he was ill/injured? I didn't know he was injured and I didn't enjoy his performance! It doesn't matter how much I paid to be at Worlds, just that I was there and that was my experience. That's what I mean by backstory being irrelevant.

I had two friends at Worlds with me, neither follow figure skating. Recently, leading up to the Olympics, we were talking about the men's contenders. I mentioned Hanyu, and reminded them that they had seen him live. They had both completely forgotten his performances. HOW DARE THEY NOT KNOW HANYU WAS INJURED. HOW DARE THEY FORGET HIM.

So what? Nobody said you have to like Hanyu, and I don't get what supposedly sounds 'backhanded' about this. There are probably quite a few people who don't like him as a performer, and I don't mind (nor do I think 'the people who came to protect their baby' here do). You won't get out of this by simply labelling everyone else as an uber.

There's nothing for me to get out of. It's a pity you're so deeply protective of Hanyu that you can't discuss his weaknesses in a rational manner. Jason Brown doesn't have as good a 3A, but he has qualities Hanyu doesn't have.

I don't dislike Hanyu. I strongly dislike his long program, his Olympic FS, his strategy for going for the 4S that he could never land in competition. I hope he gets better programs next year, and I hope he focuses on the whole program and performance and produces magic on the ice. He's capable of it. He just didn't do it in the Olympics FS.

 

[LiamForeman]

After 4 Continents last month, it sounded like Adam Rippon (& Jeremy Ten) might be considering retirement.

When you are in your 20's and you start to finish several spots off your National podium, missing the World team, and not making the 4 Continents podium, it becomes difficult to have the motivation to continue. You not only lose GP spots, but also your spot on the National team and some of the funding that goes with it.
.

Yes. Though it would make me sad to see Rippon retire, since I love his skating, he's well into his 20s, and his skating (jumps) just haven't improved. If he's smart he'll assess what his goals are, and make the right decision on what is realistic for him. Maybe he can hang on one more year like Ashley Wagner did after 2010 with the goal of "National title in 2011 or I'm retiring". You never know. His competitiveness seemed to improve this year but when it comes to clutch time, he can't produce. Eventually you have to move on. Maybe he can go one more year.

 

[NMURA]

Plushenko possibly coaching Hanyu?
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20140216-00000000-spnannex-spo

his own comments in an interview with Japanese media
"There's a possibility to coach Hanyu definitely."
"Yuzuru is my idol. He did a good job. He's a genius."

 

[Meoima]

I wonder if Yuzuru had skated better, would Chan have bombed as well? Or would that have made him fight for it? Did the fact that he had this gold medal almost handed to him make him unravel? I understand your friends feelings. It was all so weird. Patrick didn't even need to be clean, I think he could've made with one or two mistakes even, on his nemesis the axel. Why did it have to end like this? I'll never understand.

I think we should all agree on this matter: this year's Olympic is weird. The best (supposedly) did not do their best (even though some of them tried). So I have no problem with Hanyu with the gold, cause you know... at least his SP really worths watching. And his jumps (only when he performs them perfectly).
As for Chan, I really like his LP (despite all the mistakes) more than his SP (Rachmaninov never wrote that piece so people would dance to it, it just does not match:scowl.