2014 Rostelecom Cup Men's Free Skate 11/15

[satine]

I asked the saem question and got this reply: Zhulin.
Worst music choice ever of this season so far, maybe on par with Kanako's music cuts for her LP.

I think Ashley Cain's FS earlier was just as bad

 

[silverfoxes]

Just came back home. What a lovely event it was. What a good judging - cannot point to a single placement mistake, may be only too low place for Stepanova&Bukin. The men's event was a highlight with Javi being a highlight of the men's event. If he lands nicely his quads he can challenge Hanyu and Machida for real. He was so good and he received applause comparable to the crowd's favorite Voronov.

I admire how Sergey prepared for this event. He was not rock solid but he was quite solid and very fast. His 4t-3t combination is a masterpiece. And the audience enjoyed big time his second part where he became quite relaxed and even skittish. Well deserved second place. Alas, cannot say the same about Artur. I lost my trust in him until he shows at least 2 good international performances.

Michael Brezina was good. His attempt on the second 4S was quite powerful. I guess, that was his best skating since quite a long time.

Misha Ge was the crowd's favorite. His 3As were sort of fragile. That's why the audience applauded loudly after them. And his last part of the program was accompanied by the non-stop applause. I am quite glad he is a part of the elite group now with his 238 score.

With Jason I saw the same - that's his level now. As Mr.P explained it's all a part of the big plan till 2018. And he has years ahead of him unlike Voronov. So this year he is not ready yet to compete with "the big guys" in GPF. Next year, may be.

Kozuka's skating skills are impressive. But with 2 failed quads and a failed 3A we have not much left.

Others were, well, first of all my prediction game mistakes, namely Max, Stephen, and Artur. In fact, I bet on 3 Americans here and neither of them delivered points - may be jet lag?

Thank you for posting your impressions, and I'm glad someone who was actually there had the same feelings as I did about the medalists. I'm sure it's always a different experience for those who are watching live vs. on tv, and the judges see things that the home viewers do not (especially when the camerawork is shoddy - ahem, Eurosport). That's not to say that they are always "right," but who is? The judges themselves don't even agree much of the time. Everyone has their preferences and biases and the bickering about scores is probably as old as the sport itself.

 

[Mrs. P]

Just came back home. What a lovely event it was. What a good judging - cannot point to a single placement mistake, may be only too low place for Stepanova&Bukin. The men's event was a highlight with Javi being a highlight of the men's event. If he lands nicely his quads he can challenge Hanyu and Machida for real. He was so good and he received applause comparable to the crowd's favorite Voronov.

I admire how Sergey prepared for this event. He was not rock solid but he was quite solid and very fast. His 4t-3t combination is a masterpiece. And the audience enjoyed big time his second part where he became quite relaxed and even skittish. Well deserved second place. Alas, cannot say the same about Artur. I lost my trust in him until he shows at least 2 good international performances.

Michael Brezina was good. His attempt on the second 4S was quite powerful. I guess, that was his best skating since quite a long time.

Misha Ge was the crowd's favorite. His 3As were sort of fragile. That's why the audience applauded loudly after them. And his last part of the program was accompanied by the non-stop applause. I am quite glad he is a part of the elite group now with his 238 score.

With Jason I saw the same - that's his level now. As Mr.P explained it's all a part of the big plan till 2018. And he has years ahead of him unlike Voronov. So this year he is not ready yet to compete with "the big guys" in GPF. Next year, may be.

Kozuka's skating skills are impressive. But with 2 failed quads and a failed 3A we have not much left.

Others were, well, first of all my prediction game mistakes, namely Max, Stephen, and Artur. In fact, I bet on 3 Americans here and neither of them delivered points - may be jet lag?

Thanks for the report! Always great to get someone view feom the arena.

 

[el henry]

I think you started watching figure skating just last year because of Jason? Have you tried to understand the scoring system? All technical elements are give base value points (BV), the big jumps being worthy of the highest values. The judges then give or take points based on the quality of execution, as spelled out in the Code Of Points (COP) system. The total will be the Technical Elements Scores (TES). The artistry is part of the Program Components Scores (PCS) which consist of 5 components, two of which may be considered artistry.

If figure skating is just or mostly art and entertainment, it would not be a sport, especially not an Olympic sport. It is a sport with artistry, with different degrees of preferences among the fans. Maybe you can try to broaden your appreciation to become a figure skating fan instead of just a skater's fan.

As you may be able to tell from the quote under the avatar, I began watching figure skating before many of the folks on this forum were evidently born. (how did I get so old?:shocked I say that only because, although a broad appreciation of figure skating a whole is a laudable goal, starting with one skater is as good a way to get into the sport as any other.

As you note, different degrees of artistry are more or less valuable to different fans. I remember when Toller started, and I remember all the fans who said oh no, this is a *sport*, what is this guy doing? A true athlete learns school figures with precision, a true athlete would do more than few doubles (yes, those were the days, doubles ), a true athlete would not be so concerned with the music, with the artistry, with performance.

I've said it before in other threads and I'll say it again, Toller never ever won international gold, he *barely* got a bronze at the end of his career, and he changed the face of men's figure skating. I stopped watching figure skating when it seemed to become a jump fest, when no one captivated me, when life intervened. And Jason brought me back. And all the same criticisms I see of Jason today were the same criticisms I heard of Toller then. Does that mean Jason is Toller?? No. Does it mean one skater can bring someone into skating? yes. And does it mean that a skater who relies on artistry and performance more than jumps is as worthy of support as a quad-meister? I say yes.

 

[silverfoxes]

I asked the saem question and got this reply: Zhulin.
Worst music choice ever of this season so far, maybe on par with Kanako's music cuts for her LP.

Don't forget Elena R.'s short program (was that also by Zhulin?) - that makes my ears bleed!

 

[Tavi...]

Thank you. I was looking for this answer also. I am very very happy that Javier has won his GPF entry.

Oh thank you, I was wondering too!

 

[Meoima]

Don't forget Elena R.'s short program (was that also by Zhulin?) - that makes my ears bleed!

What the... Zhulin is invincible this year in term of terrible music cuts???

I think Ashley Cain's FS earlier was just as bad

Omg forgot that as well. We need a list of werid to horrendous music cuts. we can make it into CD to release and the skaters will have to pay fee for us to advoid those music cuts next season.

 

[Violet Bliss]

As you may be able to tell from the quote under the avatar, I began watching figure skating before many of the folks on this forum were evidently born. (how did I get so old?:shocked I say that only because, although a broad appreciation of figure skating a whole is a laudable goal, starting with one skater is as good a way to get into the sport as any other.

As you note, different degrees of artistry are more or less valuable to different fans. I remember when Toller started, and I remember all the fans who said oh no, this is a *sport*, what is this guy doing? A true athlete learns school figures with precision, a true athlete would do more than few doubles (yes, those were the days, doubles ), a true athlete would not be so concerned with the music, with the artistry, with performance.

I've said it before in other threads and I'll say it again, Toller never ever won international gold, he *barely* got a bronze at the end of his career, and he changed the face of men's figure skating. I stopped watching figure skating when it seemed to become a jump fest, when no one captivated me, when life intervened. And Jason brought me back. And all the same criticisms I see of Jason today were the same criticisms I heard of Toller then. Does that mean Jason is Toller?? No. Does it mean one skater can bring someone into skating? yes. And does it mean that a skater who relies on artistry and performance more than jumps is as worthy of support as a quad-meister? I say yes.

I have two opinions:

1. All competitions go by the particular sets of rules of the game, sport, and any other field of endeavor. Figure skating is a complex sport and there are many different skaters with different talents and styles appealing to different tastes of the fans. Not all the favorites and beloved skaters compete well by the rules of the sport but they win the hearts and minds of many people. Some of them make great contribution to the sport without major titles. I don't feel the most enjoyed and loved ones must win or place high in competitions. It can be frustrating and painful to insist on any skater to compete well but such emotions are choices, just as love and admiration are.

2. Jason Brown is a well loved skater with many fans, some of whom very ardent and devoted. He receives criticism as all high profile skaters do and he is surely not one of the most criticized or "hated". There is at least little personal derision directed at him.

 

[Icey]

El Henry, some could interpret your post as implying Toller only did double jumps in his competitive career. He had , in fact, an arsenal of triple jumps. also.

 

[Mrs. P]

All competitions go by the particular sets of rules of the game, sport, and any other field of endeavor. Figure skating is a complex sport and there are many different skaters with different talents and styles appealing to different tastes of the fans. Not all the favorites and beloved skaters compete well by the rules of the sport but they win the hearts and minds of many people. Some of them make great contribution to the sport without major titles. I don't feel the most enjoyed and loved ones must win or place high in competitions. It can be frustrating and painful to insist on any skater to compete well but such emotions are choices, just as love and admiration are.

Not to respond directly to your quote above (I think obviously you're speaking to the fans), but got me thinking of a passing point:

I think part of my issue with some of the criticism of Jason is getting that they see he doesn't have a quad RIGHT NOW and they assume he is not a competitor without one. Or that his strategy of getting points in other ways is less valid because he's not trying out flawed quads.

Jason is beloved by many fans, that is true. But he is also a good competitor and he is not happy when he does not do the programs the way he practices them. I think his programs are designed to get EVERY SINGLE point he can without a quad and he runs-throughs those programs day-in-and-day for the purpose be clean EVERY SINGLE TIME.

As I said in other threads, the strategy can fail miserably if he messes up and people are absolutely perfect doing their quads. That happened in the SP yesterday. In the FS? Not so much.

I think the greatest example of his competitive prowess is when he missed the 3Z in the beginning of hte program (it was supposed to be a 3Z-1L-3S....he thought fast enough on his feat to do the 1L-3S with the second lutz in the second half of the program. (Though now I sort of want him to keep it there...).

Now, if other skaters feel that packing the base value of their FS is the way to go, then they should go with that strategy. The interesting thing about competition is that the success of each strategy -- the Brown school of clean, but relatively low BV programs or the pack in the quads strategy that other skaters (Kovtun comes to mind) are doing -- can vary.

If you look at the current FS SB, Jason is #8 and is striking distance of 4 skaters in front of him. He's #11 in overall score, but again, striking distance of several skaters in front of him. We'll see how the strategy plays out during the rest of the season.

All that said, the no-quad strategy DOES have its limits especially when you're dealing with skaters who can actually pull off high BVs consistently. I don't see Jason on the podium without a quad because on a given day, there are several skaters who can pull off high BVs well == Hanyu and Machida for one. Fernandez relatively consistently (not as much as the other Japanese skaters) and Patrick Chan when he gets back to competition next season.

I'm still waiting to see whether Mura can keep the high level of skating that he did at Skate Canada. I'm not quite ready to deem him part of the consistent hitting high BV club just yet.

At this point though Jason can get GP medals and get on the World team with the tech content he has now. He already has a top 10 finish from the Olympics, but I think he could score high enough to go up a few notches at Worlds. We'll see.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Poor Misha Ge. He should have won Gold in China and Bronze here, qualifying him for the GPF.

Ferandez was overscored. He deserved to win here, but not by that much. His long program is not good -- those PCS are ridiculous, especially for this rather messy performance.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Mrs. P, I don't follow Jason closely as you do but I do believe in he and his team following their strategy and overall plan instead of listening to all the free advice and various criticism. Even if he never puts out consistent quads in competitions, he has already achieved more than all his U.S. contemporaries. Compared to some who keep changing their training, Jason must have found the right people to stick with and has had his level of success even before realization of his full potential. I wasn't writing about him particularly in the first part of my post above but it applies too that with or without major titles, he can still be very successful in various ways. But knowing that his team actually has a long term plan and outlook, and observing his continual improvement, I am sure more competitive success can be expected of him.

 

[peg]

This reminds me of some of the criticism of Patrick Chan not pushing to get a quad too quickly. He too, was later than most guys in getting it, but then (IIRC) within a season he went from no quads to one in the SP and two in the LP and because of his strong basics leapfrogged over guys who had put more focus on the jumps early on

 

[el henry]

I have two opinions:

1. All competitions go by the particular sets of rules of the game, sport, and any other field of endeavor. Figure skating is a complex sport and there are many different skaters with different talents and styles appealing to different tastes of the fans. Not all the favorites and beloved skaters compete well by the rules of the sport but they win the hearts and minds of many people. Some of them make great contribution to the sport without major titles. I don't feel the most enjoyed and loved ones must win or place high in competitions. It can be frustrating and painful to insist on any skater to compete well but such emotions are choices, just as love and admiration are.

2. Jason Brown is a well loved skater with many fans, some of whom very ardent and devoted. He receives criticism as all high profile skaters do and he is surely not one of the most criticized or "hated". There is at least little personal derision directed at him.

We agree, SkateFiguring. I did not mean to imply that Jason received personal criticism, just that the criticism leveled at his "type" of skating has happened before, and will, I'm sure, happen again. I am sure that *Jason* wants to win, whether or not I care. And when the programs are not executed cleanly, as at CoR, that will not happen.

 

[el henry]

El Henry, some could interpret your post as implying Toller only did double jumps in his competitive career. He had , in fact, an arsenal of triple jumps. also.

You are right; I was exaggerating for effect, and his triples were gorgeous (what else would I say?) But he was criticized for not having the best or biggest, and certainly criticized for not being "athletic" enough. or treating FS like a "sport". And I suspect that same debate will continue around men's FS forty years from now... (by me!)

 

[Interspectator]

Just came back home. What a lovely event it was. What a good judging - cannot point to a single placement mistake, may be only too low place for Stepanova&Bukin. The men's event was a highlight with Javi being a highlight of the men's event. If he lands nicely his quads he can challenge Hanyu and Machida for real. He was so good and he received applause comparable to the crowd's favorite Voronov.

I admire how Sergey prepared for this event. He was not rock solid but he was quite solid and very fast. His 4t-3t combination is a masterpiece. And the audience enjoyed big time his second part where he became quite relaxed and even skittish. Well deserved second place. Alas, cannot say the same about Artur. I lost my trust in him until he shows at least 2 good international performances.

Michael Brezina was good. His attempt on the second 4S was quite powerful. I guess, that was his best skating since quite a long time.

Misha Ge was the crowd's favorite. His 3As were sort of fragile. That's why the audience applauded loudly after them. And his last part of the program was accompanied by the non-stop applause. I am quite glad he is a part of the elite group now with his 238 score.

With Jason I saw the same - that's his level now. As Mr.P explained it's all a part of the big plan till 2018. And he has years ahead of him unlike Voronov. So this year he is not ready yet to compete with "the big guys" in GPF. Next year, may be.

Kozuka's skating skills are impressive. But with 2 failed quads and a failed 3A we have not much left.

Others were, well, first of all my prediction game mistakes, namely Max, Stephen, and Artur. In fact, I bet on 3 Americans here and neither of them delivered points - may be jet lag?

I really appreciate that you took time to tell us your first-hand account. Thank you! I'm also glad that it was enjoyable.
The poor people who went to COC...they came back traumatized.

 

[Mathman]

Perhaps, in the future. If I find enough skaters to love skating .. De gustibus. There are many people who do not watch the dance in general but only some dancers. And I have nothing against. And the Point Sistem is a very complicated for me.

You are not alone if you harbor a suspicion that the current scoring system works against the enjoyment of figure skating from a spectator's point of view. The position of the ISU is that "its not our problem" -- the sport of figure skating, like golf or tennis or soccer (I mean, football ) either attracts fans or not, according to whether people want to watch athletes exhibit remarkable skills and whether they enjoy the vicarious thrill of victory and agony of defeat, etc.

i think Jason Brown will follow the arc of Patrick Chan (minus the world championships). When Patrick Chan burst on the scene he was utterly unique. He brought blade-to-ice skills that no one had ever seen before, the great Kurt Browning alone (as a professional) excepted. Within a couple of years he had stabalized his triple Axel and added a quadruple jump to his arsenal. Now he was like all the others. He got many points for his big jumps. His basic skating was still good but … I don't know … maybe we got used to it. Last year Jason was something else! This year, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Icey]

Some of the discussion reminds me of the debate that swirled around Evan when he won Olympic gold without a quad.

 

[balletanddancefan]

You are not alone if you harbor a suspicion that the current scoring system works against the enjoyment of figure skating from a spectator's point of view. The position of the ISU is that "its not our problem" -- the sport of figure skating, like golf or tennis or soccer (I mean, football ) either attracts fans or not, according to whether people want to watch athletes exhibit remarkable skills and whether they enjoy the vicarious thrill of victory and agony of defeat, etc.

i think Jason Brown will follow the arc of Patrick Chan (minus the world championships). When Patrick Chan burst on the scene he was utterly unique. He brought blade-to-ice skills that no one had ever seen before, the great Kurt Browning alone (as a professional) excepted. Within a couple of years he had stabalized his triple Axel and added a quadruple jump to his arsenal. Now he was like all the others. He got many points for his big jumps. His basic skating was still good but … I don't know … maybe we got used to it. Last year Jason was something else! This year, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I know the rules of tennis, soccer, etc. of pinpong. But the scores of Figure Skating seem very difficult. Then I don't understand: if a dancer falls on his jump, this jump isnt'exist. Zero, nulla. It isn"t a jump, its a failure. But in figure skating there are points also in case of fall...

 

[Mathman]

But in figure skating there are points also in case of fall...

A much criticized state of affairs. The International Skating Union persists in shooting itself in the foot. Fans do not protest, they just fade away.