2014 Skate America Ladies FS 10/26

[Kinga]

Actually... not really. Introvert interpretation are necessarily when music/choreography requires it. It is about what is best appropriate, not which style is better. What you have just stated seems to imply there is little room for introspective music or introspective interpretation unless it is something really special.

The different between a qualified judge (with years of knowledge and experience) vs an average audience (looking for instant gratification and cheer for home favs) are completely different. Quality judging should be capable to decipher music meaning, intention, purpose, interpret the choreography delivery,to judge on quality of creative decisions making and whether the skater successfully delivered the program construct in all aspect as intended. Popularity should have no bearing on the PCS, but I do realise often do, but I'd argue that is usually due to judging's inability or lacking conviction on PCS criterias so rely on these 'indicators', but actually that shouldn't be the way to reward PCS categories. Otherwise skaters like Misha Ge should deserve the highest PCS in PE/IN in every competition he has entered since he is usually one of crowd's favs because his style is naturally one of people pleaser.

Then it comes down to the question what makes people bored? If people are bored through unfamiliarity (music/skater/restlessly waiting for home favourites) then it would not be a valid reason to discount the work either. How about expectation? If the audience are only ever used to seeing pantomime and used to a certain style of delivery, is it at all possible they can be 'bored' when confronted with unfamiliarity? Is it at all possible work can be appreciated through second viewing and later reflection? Are all work designed to please only those in the arena at that competition for a few minutes or something more?

Are there room for modest, intelligent, compassionate, sensitive, subtle lyricism in this sport? If you tell me PCS can not reward these things, then I might as well give up the sport now.

By the way, my interpretation of the music edit is that it is a 3 part character progression monologue, that is why personally I don't have a problem with this direction of interpretation (other than the parts i have noted), although certainly I can understand why some people may have a problem with it on face value.

Although a skipping, jumpy, happy, smiley winking, flirty, hands waving Juliet complete with 'I heart you' hand sign and air kiss smacker while dying horribly may appeal to certain live audiences, I am afraid it is well beyond David Wilson's capability. May be SoYoun can consider changing to Morozov and pick Carmen next year.

Thank you for expressing so well something i felt over the years, but could not articulate that properly. Im glad that there are figure skating fans that feel that way!

 

[Mathman]

Please no!! Half loop combos make my brain hurt. I honestly think maybe one out of twenty look good. Maybe not even that high. I try to not complain too much about styles of skating that irk me but the half loop is different.

I agree, and to me it is strange how bad those half-loop combos look. Every time I see one I think, oh no, she just had a disaster -- oh wait, she was trying to do that.

I don't see why it is not possible to do a graceful little hop to change feet and then go smoothly into the second jump. But i can't think of anyone except maybe Patrick Chan who can really pull it off and make it not look like a mistake.

 

[Meoima]

Or maybe we should have a rule to band the half loop combo.

 

[YesWay]

I don't see why it is not possible to do a graceful little hop to change feet and then go smoothly into the second jump.

If I understand correctly, they'd have to change the rules of what makes a combo... a combo, and not a seqence. For a combo, "each jump must take off from the landing edge of the previous jump, with no steps, turns, or change of edge in between jumps".

So under those rules, if a skater wants to add a Salchow or Flip to a combo, the half-loop as a "jump" is the only (?) way to get onto the necesary foot/edge...

Or maybe we should have a rule to band the half loop combo.

Banning the half loop would immediately restrict the range of posible jump combinations, and surely isn't good for the sport.

Some skaters have shown that the half-loop can look entirely deliberate, and even make it look good IMO. It's up to the other skaters to do the same, rather than ban the half-loop because only a few skaters make it look good. (I'd argue that very few skaters make a cantilever look good, but I'm not going to call for it to be banned because of that )

 

[Meoima]

Banning the half loop would immediately restrict the range of posible jump combinations, and surely isn't good for the sport.

I was just joking.

Some skaters have shown that the half-loop can look entirely deliberate, and even make it look good IMO. It's up to the other skaters to do the same, rather than ban the half-loop because only a few skaters make it look good. (I'd argue that very few skaters make a cantilever look good, but I'm not going to call for it to be banned because of that )

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BphGflsCQAAM4wr.jpg:large

 

[Mathman]

IMO, the new Zayak rule encourages variety in combinations. I mean, what do we see otherwise? 3A-2T, 3F-2T, 3Lz-2T-2T.

This should be scored like this: Full credit for the first two combos. For the last, credit for the Lutz with reduction in base value if the skater also did another solo Lutz, no credit for the last two two 2T's. This amply preserves the intent of the Zayak rules.

Skaters should be encouraged to upgrade the first two combos to 3Lz+3T and 3F+3T, and to replace the last combo with 4F+half-loop+4S. The scoring rules already provide such encouragement, if any skater is good enough to attempt it.

 

[MIM]

Actually... not really. Introvert interpretation are necessarily when music/choreography requires it. It is about what is best appropriate, not which style is better. What you have just stated seems to imply there is little room for introspective music or introspective interpretation unless it is something really special.

The different between a qualified judge (with years of knowledge and experience) vs an average audience (looking for instant gratification and cheer for home favs) are completely different. Quality judging should be capable to decipher music meaning, intention, purpose, interpret the choreography delivery,to judge on quality of creative decisions making and whether the skater successfully delivered the program construct in all aspect as intended. Popularity should have no bearing on the PCS, but I do realise often do, but I'd argue that is usually due to judging's inability or lacking conviction on PCS criterias so rely on these 'indicators', but actually that shouldn't be the way to reward PCS categories. Otherwise skaters like Misha Ge should deserve the highest PCS in PE/IN in every competition he has entered since he is usually one of crowd's favs because his style is naturally one of people pleaser.

Then it comes down to the question what makes people bored? If people are bored through unfamiliarity (music/skater/restlessly waiting for home favourites) then it would not be a valid reason to discount the work either. How about expectation? If the audience are only ever used to seeing pantomime and used to a certain style of delivery, is it at all possible they can be 'bored' when confronted with unfamiliarity? Is it at all possible work can be appreciated through second viewing and later reflection? Are all work designed to please only those in the arena at that competition for a few minutes or something more?

Are there room for modest, intelligent, compassionate, sensitive, subtle lyricism in this sport? If you tell me PCS can not reward these things, then I might as well give up the sport now.

By the way, my interpretation of the music edit is that it is a 3 part character progression monologue, that is why personally I don't have a problem with this direction of interpretation (other than the parts i have noted), although certainly I can understand why some people may have a problem with it on face value.

Although a skipping, jumpy, happy, smiley winking, flirty, hands waving Juliet complete with 'I heart you' hand sign and air kiss smacker while dying horribly may appeal to certain live audiences, I am afraid it is well beyond David Wilson's capability. May be SoYoun can consider changing to Morozov and pick Carmen next year.

I totally agree with you.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Figure skating is a beautiful sport. It should not be so black and white. I just think the audience needs to be a little more patient and willing to accept the quality of what a skater puts out there, even though it is not your style. Otherwise, we are probably missing really a good portion of this beautiful sport.

 

[gsk8]

apparently you can't even post "wave to judges" on this forum anymore

The difference is you are ranting, trolling, and hijacking various threads with zinger posts in a sarcastic attempt to prove a point. Your intent is clear and is getting tiresome.

 

[andyjo24]

Actually... not really. Introvert interpretation are necessarily when music/choreography requires it. It is about what is best appropriate, not which style is better. What you have just stated seems to imply there is little room for introspective music or introspective interpretation unless it is something really special.

The different between a qualified judge (with years of knowledge and experience) vs an average audience (looking for instant gratification and cheer for home favs) are completely different. Quality judging should be capable to decipher music meaning, intention, purpose, interpret the choreography delivery,to judge on quality of creative decisions making and whether the skater successfully delivered the program construct in all aspect as intended. Popularity should have no bearing on the PCS, but I do realise often do, but I'd argue that is usually due to judging's inability or lacking conviction on PCS criterias so rely on these 'indicators', but actually that shouldn't be the way to reward PCS categories. Otherwise skaters like Misha Ge should deserve the highest PCS in PE/IN in every competition he has entered since he is usually one of crowd's favs because his style is naturally one of people pleaser.

Then it comes down to the question what makes people bored? If people are bored through unfamiliarity (music/skater/restlessly waiting for home favourites) then it would not be a valid reason to discount the work either. How about expectation? If the audience are only ever used to seeing pantomime and used to a certain style of delivery, is it at all possible they can be 'bored' when confronted with unfamiliarity? Is it at all possible work can be appreciated through second viewing and later reflection? Are all work designed to please only those in the arena at that competition for a few minutes or something more?

Are there room for modest, intelligent, compassionate, sensitive, subtle lyricism in this sport? If you tell me PCS can not reward these things, then I might as well give up the sport now.

By the way, my interpretation of the music edit is that it is a 3 part character progression monologue, that is why personally I don't have a problem with this direction of interpretation (other than the parts i have noted), although certainly I can understand why some people may have a problem with it on face value.

Although a skipping, jumpy, happy, smiley winking, flirty, hands waving Juliet complete with 'I heart you' hand sign and air kiss smacker while dying horribly may appeal to certain live audiences, I am afraid it is well beyond David Wilson's capability. May be SoYoun can consider changing to Morozov and pick Carmen next year.

I agree with every single point made here. :agree:

 

[chloepoco]

The difference is you are ranting, trolling, and hijacking various threads with zinger posts in a sarcastic attempt to prove a point. Your intent is clear and is getting tiresome.

:thumbsup: Very tiresome, indeed!

 

[mskater93]

Actually... not really. Introvert interpretation are necessarily when music/choreography requires it. It is about what is best appropriate, not which style is better. What you have just stated seems to imply there is little room for introspective music or introspective interpretation unless it is something really special.

My point was that it is much harder to be able to pull off more introverted interpretation and make it interesting to most. This means for the judges too! I don't care how long a judge has trained, even in a group of 12, they want to be entertained and to feel a part of the process. Skating is first and foremost a sport but it is also a performance. People on these forums complain Mirai gives up the performance when she makes mistakes and it makes it difficult to watch or be a fan. It's also difficult to watch programs that don't draw a viewer in (even introverted interpretation - some of Shizuka's, Mao's and Yuna's programs drew the audience in and created a spell, even if they were introspective) or that seem like the skater is checking off a list in their head.

Also, programs that look like a tennis match are difficult to watch. Unfortunately, this is how I would have categorized Meite's program here.

 

[MIM]

My point was that it is much harder to be able to pull off more introverted interpretation and make it interesting to most. This means for the judges too! I don't care how long a judge has trained, even in a group of 12, they want to be entertained and to feel a part of the process. Skating is first and foremost a sport but it is also a performance. People on these forums complain Mirai gives up the performance when she makes mistakes and it makes it difficult to watch or be a fan. It's also difficult to watch programs that don't draw a viewer in (even introverted interpretation - some of Shizuka's, Mao's and Yuna's programs drew the audience in and created a spell, even if they were introspective) or that seem like the skater is checking off a list in their head.

Also, programs that look like a tennis match are difficult to watch. Unfortunately, this is how I would have categorized Meite's program here.

I understand your point, but there is difference between being indifferent and being introverted. Both are rather hard to draw the audience's attention/interests as you said. The former is wrong and to be punished PCS wise, whereas the latter is just a style and quality to be judged just like the other styles of skating. The three skaters you mentioned, Shizuka, Mao, and Yuna, are the masters of interpretation of any kinds of music or tone of choreography in my opinion. I just do not want to discourage a skater or choreographer because her/his introverted, quiet interpretation of music could be misunderstood as something indifferent and zero performance worthy.

 

[yyyskate]

very true, also judges sit in the front row, often will detect nuance more easily than upper row audience. Specific for SoYoun's LP, there is some choreo designed to impress judges right in front of them. there is also some choreo are very close to the side of rink to communicate with audience of that side intimately but not necessary directly under judges' eyes. Liza's program on the other hand is all charm display in the middle of the rink.
From my live experience is that, particularly for SoYoun's program, it is more heart touching from Judges' view than from upper row audience. She does not have the projection to 100 row yet.

also, to say watching Mae is like watching a tennis player is really sad, just because she has the tennis player body type? ,She is one of the most entertaining skaters that i have ever seen live.

BTW, Yuna has the best projection of all lady that i have ever seen live (just watch those fancams). unfortunately I have never seen Michelle skate live, can not imagine what kinda projection will she have.

 

[burntBREAD]

I think (don't want to put words in people's mouths) that mskater referred to Meite's program as a "tennis match" possibly because it's so back-and-forth, straight up and down the rink for the next element, like how in a tennis match you turn your head to watch the ball go back and forth.

 

[Meoima]

Gracie's FS fancam, she does skate fast and light. And she didn't slow down in the footwork. That's really good basic skills don't you think: http://youtu.be/iBnBuzGDwPM

 

[yyyskate]

I think (don't want to put words in people's mouths) that mskater referred to Meite's program as a "tennis match" possibly because it's so back-and-forth, straight up and down the rink for the next element, like how in a tennis match you turn your head to watch the ball go back and forth.

I haven't re watch Mae's program yet, but I did not get the impression that she is back and forth. I remembered one of her program is more impressive, and she is trying to add more difficult turns in her step sequence this season, which seems difficult for her. but she is very entertaining, and her jumps are huge and very impressive.

 

[Jammers]

Gracie's FS fancam, she does skate fast and light. And she didn't slow down in the footwork. That's really good basic skills don't you think: http://youtu.be/iBnBuzGDwPM

Gracie really has the best skating skills of the current US Ladies. Add her jumping ability and that is why there was all the hype even when she was a unpolished Junior skater and why people expected her to start winning medals and competitions. She should be contending for World medals but i don't see it happening with her lack of mental toughness. Some skaters just aren't meant to compete.

 

[Meoima]

Gracie really has the best skating skills of the current US Ladies. Add her jumping ability and that is why there was all the hype even when she was a unpolished Junior skater and why people expected her to start winning medals and competitions. She should be contending for World medals but i don't see it happening with her lack of mental toughness. Some skaters just aren't meant to compete.

Don't give up your hope, what if she's late bloomer?

 

[Jammers]

Don't give up your hope, what if she's late bloomer?

Most skaters if they haven't learned how to compete by the time they are 18,19 usually never reach their potential. I just don't see the killer instinct with Gracie that i see from the Russians or even someone like Polina. Heck even Cesario owns the ice more then Gracie at least Sam lands her jumps.

 

[Meoima]

Most skaters if they haven't learned how to compete by the time they are 18,19 usually never reach their potential. I just don't see the killer instinct with Gracie that i see from the Russians or even someone like Polina.

Carolina Kostner?