2014 Worlds - Ladies Free Skating

[ILuvYuna]

So are jumps considered choreo, or not? Is it explained somewhere in the ISU documents?

 

[WeakAnkles]

Then Adelina's choreography must be the best.

Her jumps are spectacular, but the rest of the choreography was weak and disconnected. Tarasova can spout all the nonsense she wants, but that was not a unified program with a consistent choreographic theme.

 

[skatedreamer]

I feel bad for her too at times but I don't think she is afraid to say no or eat whatever she wants to honestly. This one has a very strong will and desire to win and seems willing to sacrifice a lot to achieve it. Maybe she has a secret cooler hidden under her bed or somewhere in her room full of goodies. I like to imagine her eating ice cream bars late night under the covers and getting melted ice cream all over her medals as she wipes her face off with them all the while letting out a sinister, yet muted laugh!!

While I try to stop LOLing @ this image, I'm going to do my best to get serious. Speaking as someone who has struggled w/ weight issues all her life (and has recently dropped 65 lbs -- trying to KEEP it off!), the "squeeze powder" stories worry me. No one, especially not a 15-year-old, should lose weight that quickly. I recognize that Yulia isn't doing this for extended periods, but it's still not healthy. Hope her coaches know what they're doing.

OK, back to LOLing...none of the smilies are enough for this post, S-S -- need one w/ cartwheels or something but will try to make do w/ !!!

 

[Blades of Passion]

You are right in the sense that the jumps are part of the choreography, but it is the placement in relation to the whole program which make them choreography. Your post made it sound like a single flip and is worse chreography than a triple flip which is certainly not the case.

Yes it certainly is the case, depending on how the program is constructed. Jumps are not only about the placement. They are about the actual look and impact of the jump. Again, EVERY single movement that's made is choreography. A Triple Flip is different choreographically than a Single Flip, no doubt about it at all. Given that Carolina's program construction was specifically about LONG build ups into the jumps, the choreography IS becoming much worse when the jumps pop into nothing.

BTW I loved the "ode to the single jump" write up. I've read it several times and found it funny and not offensive at all. I honestly can not look at the protocols anymore because I can't resist looking at Caro's and hearing your words.

Thank you!

 

[Alba]

Her jumps are spectacular, but the rest of the choreography was weak and disconnected. Tarasova can spout all the nonsense she wants, but that was not a unified program with a consistent choreographic theme.

I don't think her choreo per se was weak at all. I think it was a difficult choreo, and maybe too difficult for her as a concept. Maybe understandable for a girl of her age.

What I think it didn't work in that choreo was the music choice. The "Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso" is a wonderful piece of music but the music should be supportive to the choreo and the theme chosen (when there is a theme).
Rondo Capriccioso states a theme that has a Spanish flavor, which I think could be a good choice for a "contemporary" flamenco FD routine or even a LP for a single skater - not very easy thing to do - but in this case I think it was not the best choice, so I agree, it did look disconnected and aimless.
IMO no matter how good the choreography is it will never look good when it's not matched by the music, or when a skater doesn't like that music.

 

[crazydreamer]

Ashley has the lp of her life and still scores only 3 points over a melt down from Kostner. Kostner was overscored by about 8 points in the lp, IMO.

 

[usethis2]

Just following a few posts while back about Julia’s weight, I had a deadline at work and only now going through this thread. Eteri in one of her interviews said that Julia has such a serious problem with weight that she practically can eat nothing, any step from the strictest diet results in extra 100g immediately and that some days all Julia has is some powder giving energy but zero calories. Eteri said that she has never come across the problem that bad and that she feels very sorry for the girl. I was pretty shocked and saddened – that is not good for a young still developing body. Of course all athletes have to be on a diet of one sort of another BUT that bad? Add to it hormones they are all fed with and her future health wise doesn’t look good.

Thank you, melissa_ire. More inside stories in figure skating world.

 

[sk8in]

Yes it certainly is the case, depending on how the program is constructed. Jumps are not only about the placement. They are about the actual look and impact of the jump. Again, EVERY single movement that's made is choreography. A Triple Flip is different choreographically than a Single Flip, no doubt about it at all. Given that Carolina's program construction was specifically about LONG build ups into the jumps, the choreography IS becoming much worse when the jumps pop into nothing.



Thank you!

I really don't think I agree with this. It is not a choreographer's job to say what jump goes where, or how a skater should do a jump. A jump is performed based on proper technique. Even something like the Rippon-lutz is as much a technical feat, as a personal flourish. I think jumps are only part of the choreography in so far as the reflect a certain swell/beat/climax in the music. The choreographer's job as more to do with the skater's positions during transitions and footwork sequence.

 

[Olympia]

While I try to stop LOLing @ this image, I'm going to do my best to get serious. Speaking as someone who has struggled w/ weight issues all her life (and has recently dropped 65 lbs -- trying to KEEP it off!), the "squeeze powder" stories worry me. No one, especially not a 15-year-old, should lose weight that quickly. I recognize that Yulia isn't doing this for extended periods, but it's still not healthy. Hope her coaches know what they're doing.

OK, back to LOLing...none of the smilies are enough for this post, S-S -- need one w/ cartwheels or something but will try to make do w/ !!!

I just want to take an OT moment to congratulate you on your achievement! Here's hoping you can keep it off, and not with anything resembling squeeze powder. Many people have done it, and I hope you share their good outcome. Stay strong, but enjoy life and food!

I worry about the girls who eat next to nothing on their own, but I worry even more about the institutional dieting that goes on in centrally supervised sports programs (mainly skating and gymnastics). There may even be a pet doctor who's paid to say that the girls are healthy, but the longterm problems are often serious and include bone density changes.

This is the kind of thing that makes me feel guilty for being a skating fan, or at least a fan of ladies' singles skating. I don't want to give it up, but it's hard thinking of these girls going to such extremes in service of their goals (or maybe the goals of the people around them). Gee, Elena Gedevanishvili is beginning to look better and better to me.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^ I'll second everything you just posted!! all around

I can only take comfort in the fact that I don't think Yulia can be pushed around and will only do as she sees as best for her. I bet her fiesty nature follows her throught life and that gives me some comfort. That's why I tried to draw the image of the little girl flipping the proverbial bird to everyone and eating midnight snacks under her blankets and using her medals as a napkin...pure irony if you think about it. Here is to good health and continued success for all skaters and posters involved!

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

I feel bad for her too at times but I don't think she is afraid to say no or eat whatever she wants to honestly. This one has a very strong will and desire to win and seems willing to sacrifice a lot to achieve it. Maybe she has a secret cooler hidden under her bed or somewhere in her room full of goodies. I like to imagine her eating ice cream bars late night under the covers and getting melted ice cream all over her medals as she wipes her face off with them all the while letting out a sinister, yet muted laugh!!

And remember what she said at Europeans? The question was: How will you celebrate, with a glass of champagne? And after Yulia understood the question (third-party translator there), she said alcohol is not for athletes. But I will have a piece of chocolate cake.

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

I read Yulia's reply about this on FSU a month ago. I'm trying to find it but it's difficult, I can't remember in which section it was posted and I'm not a member.
Anyway, she said the journalist was full of crap or something like that.
She said she eat this and that, and she does like chocolates a lot.




True, but she does not smile when she skates The Nutcracker as well. She obviously needs to work a bit on that aspect.

I think it's difficult for people to say exactly what facial expression skaters are required to have, though. Although I think most of us agree that for Schindler's list any remotely cheerful expression would not be good; as it should be. But we all have varying ideas on what expressions she should be showing though as well as the expressions he/she/they should be wearing in other programs.

Regarding Nutcracker, I sort of agree with you and yet the expression on her face is one of the smallest reasons to dislike that program in my opinion. She was having trouble with growth spurts and injuries, and struggling with jumps so she never managed to skate that program even close to its potential. That is something I can only say in retrospect after seeing what she is capable of this year. At the time I loved both of her programs.

To me, facial expression has never increased or decreased my appreciation of a program. Unless, of course, someone smiled through program where the entire tone was somber, for example. To me the skater's programs I like have them moving gracefully to the music, using their body(ies) to bring out the quality of the music.Arguably that would be every skater then, right? But there has to be something more to it, because we all have different skaters, we respond to. Some of whom are arguably very similar in some aspects and yet each of us only likes one of them. The ones I enjoy are Yulia, Sasha, Stephane, Tessa & Scott, Kaitlyn & Andrew, Johnny(with the caveat that some of his non-competitive programs are to songs that I would actively hate if I heard them before I watched him skate to them) Cody & Anabelle, Meagan & Eric, and Katya & Sergei. I like individual performances of other skaters generally when I know(and like) their music and/or there's just something cool about that performance whether it was unexpected or some other type of triumph but the skaters I listed are the ones whose skating I watch again and again even if I don't know the music they're skating to or would even like the music just hearing it in another situation.

If you haven't already, go watch her 2012 R&J JR Worlds FS. You can see her smile during the program, and she seems more joyful then, before the transition the senior, the struggle of last year, and the stress of the approaching Olympics took its toll. She seemed to have a lot of that same behaviour at the Gala. Though she showed flashes of it earlier when she skated so well at SP COR, or both programs at Euros.

 

[Alba]

I think it's difficult for people to say exactly what facial expression skaters are required to have, though. Although I think most of us agree that for Schindler's list any remotely cheerful expression would not be good; as it should be. But we all have varying ideas on what expressions she should be showing though as well as the expressions he/she/they should be wearing in other programs.

Regarding Nutcracker, I sort of agree with you and yet the expression on her face is one of the smallest reasons to dislike that program in my opinion. She was having trouble with growth spurts and injuries, and struggling with jumps so she never managed to skate that program even close to its potential. That is something I can only say in retrospect after seeing what she is capable of this year. At the time I loved both of her programs.

To me, facial expression has never increased or decreased my appreciation of a program. Unless, of course, someone smiled through program where the entire tone was somber, for example. To me the skater's programs I like have them moving gracefully to the music, using their body(ies) to bring out the quality of the music.Arguably that would be every skater then, right? But there has to be something more to it, because we all have different skaters, we respond to. Some of whom are arguably very similar in some aspects and yet each of us only likes one of them. The ones I enjoy are Yulia, Sasha, Stephane, Tessa & Scott, Kaitlyn & Andrew, Johnny(with the caveat that some of his non-competitive programs are to songs that I would actively hate if I heard them before I watched him skate to them) Cody & Anabelle, Meagan & Eric, and Katya & Sergei. I like individual performances of other skaters generally when I know(and like) their music and/or there's just something cool about that performance whether it was unexpected or some other type of triumph but the skaters I listed are the ones whose skating I watch again and again even if I don't know the music they're skating to or would even like the music just hearing it in another situation.

If you haven't already, go watch her 2012 R&J JR Worlds FS. You can see her smile during the program, and she seems more joyful then, before the transition the senior, the struggle of last year, and the stress of the approaching Olympics took its toll. She seemed to have a lot of that same behaviour at the Gala. Though she showed flashes of it earlier when she skated so well at SP COR, or both programs at Euros.

I agree with you, but I can understand some of the criticism in that aspect. I'm not too much in this facial expression discussion. There are some skaters with a big smile stamped on their face and to me they often look false.
However, as I already said in my previous comments, the only thing I would like to see her improving in her performances at the moment, is to hold some of her elements and movements longer. Make some enfolding movements because she does beautiful body and hand movements.
In other wards to finish the musical phrase. It can make a big difference overall.
Watch this video, and compare the girl suggested in the video with the other girls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6OYZqptag0

I worry about the girls who eat next to nothing on their own, but I worry even more about the institutional dieting that goes on in centrally supervised sports programs (mainly skating and gymnastics). There may even be a pet doctor who's paid to say that the girls are healthy, but the longterm problems are often serious and include bone density changes.

A healthy diet is neccessary for anybody who wants to compete not only in this kind of sport but also in other sports.
Let's be honest here. You need discipline and strong regime there as well.
You can't eat pasta, steak, pizza and dessert everytime you want. By the way that can be pretty bad for your health as well.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It is not a choreographer's job to say what jump goes where, or how a skater should do a jump.

It is if the choreographer is also the coach. And the choreographer can still put forth these ideas even if they aren't the coach. If the skater/coach isn't budging on the jump layout, then it means they've set that part of the choreography themselves. It's then up to the choreographer to figure out how to create the rest of it. If you know Patrick Chan is going to doing Quad, Quad, Triple Axel no matter what in the first 50 seconds of the program, then you need to find movement that works with the power and trajectories of those jumps.

Of course, those behind-the-scenes specifics are irrelevant because it comes down to the person actually skating. It's all about exactly what they do on the ice.

Even something like the Rippon-lutz is as much a technical feat, as a personal flourish.

It is a technical feat, yes, but the fact is it creates a specific look and method of movement. Everything is a brushstroke and it's about how well they all come together to create the picture. For example look at the use of a rippon-lutz in Richard Dornbush's 2013 Long Program - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXsJiStCZIw . It doesn't really make any sense with the choreography (what little he has in this program, LOL), especially because he does it in combination with another "rippon" jump and that loses the effect of how unique it's supposed to be. He's trying to be laid-back and "cool" in this program (at least until the last part) and then he randomly does this move that is much more flamboyant and it doesn't really have any purpose. If it served as transition into a new phrasing of choreography it would make sense, but it doesn't.

Compare that to how he uses it in this program - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU69UbVem2I. First of all note how the same jump already has a somewhat different look because he jumps higher, doesn't rotate as quickly, and finishes the rotation completely above this ice. This creates a fuller look and that fits with the more solemn movements of this part of the program, while at the same time the double overhead position presents the idea of something that isn't normal. Since the program is a Beatles medley and he employs many different styles of movement throughout the program, this opening movement is an excellent frame for what's to come and becomes a part of a cohesive whole.

I think jumps are only part of the choreography in so far as they reflect a certain swell/beat/climax in the music.

But that's what every other movement should be doing as well. Everything should utilize the music for an effect, while working towards forming a greater whole. The movement creates ideas/emotions and the music creates ideas/emotions and together they combine to form "dance". Bigger jumps with lots of rotation intrinsically create a different feeling than a small jumps with less rotation.

This is actually one of the reasons why Julia Lipnitskaia's LP this season works so well for her. Her small body and relatively smaller jumps work with the idea of helpless oppression and desolation that the music is putting out, while her big triple toeloops on the ends of the smaller jumps stand out as a statement of defiance against the injustice.

 

[David21]

Yes it certainly is the case, depending on how the program is constructed. Jumps are not only about the placement. They are about the actual look and impact of the jump. Again, EVERY single movement that's made is choreography. A Triple Flip is different choreographically than a Single Flip, no doubt about it at all. Given that Carolina's program construction was specifically about LONG build ups into the jumps, the choreography IS becoming much worse when the jumps pop into nothing.

Her single jumps were intended to be triple jumps, and her mistakes are already reflected in the TES and partially in P/E. You basically say that skaters should be punished for their choreo when they are making techncial mistakes which is not going to happen, ever, and it shouldn't.
Useing your logic, when a skater falls a judge could say: "oh, that fall is bad choreo" and give low scores for the choreo which is totally stupid and unrealistic.

Again, a jump per is not choreo, it is a technical element which only becomes choreo when it is part of the whole program. And Caro's choreo is certainly not about long build-ups into jumps. For a triple flip or lutz you need long build-ups and it doesn't matter if you do a few steps before them or not, and the steps should be considered mostly under transitions.

 

[Alba]

Her single jumps were intended to be triple jumps, and her mistakes are already reflected in the TES and partially in P/E. You basically say that skaters should be punished for their choreo when they are making techncial mistakes which is not going to happen, ever, and it shouldn't.
Useing your logic, when a skater falls a judge could say: "oh, that fall is bad choreo" and give low scores for the choreo which is totally stupid and unrealistic.

I agree with you, but it could and should be "punished"/reflected on performance/execution perhaps. Depending on how much a fall will interrupt the flow.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Her single jumps were intended to be triple jumps, and her mistakes are already reflected in the TES and partially in P/E. You basically say that skaters should be punished for their choreo when they are making techncial mistakes which is not going to happen, ever, and it shouldn't.
Useing your logic, when a skater falls a judge could say: "oh, that fall is bad choreo" and give low scores for the choreo which is totally stupid and unrealistic.

It's not stupid or unrealistic at all. That's exactly how it should work. ALL technical elements ARE choreography. If you mess one of them up, the choreography has likely suffered. Not in all cases, but the majority of the time.

Choreography as judged is not what the skater plans to do, it's what they DID do. If a skater has a spread eagle planned in their choreography and they lose the edge on it and mess it up, then that negatively hurts the program. It's no different than planning a Triple jump and severely messing it up. The choreography has been hurt by the mistake.

And Caro's choreo is certainly not about long build-ups into jumps.

LOL? What do you call full rink lengths of staring down a jump then?

For a triple flip or lutz you need long build-ups and it doesn't matter if you do a few steps before them or not, and the steps should be considered mostly under transitions.

Steps before jumps are not just transitions. They are part of the choreography and the interpretation of the music. As is every other movement.

And, no, you don't need a long build up for a triple flip. I've done it with just a few steps after the landing of another jump. Here's another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN0EjO9eSjE&t=4m06s

 

[David21]

It's not stupid or unrealistic at all.

I totally disagree with you and think you get it all wrong, but I have a question. I'd really like to know what in your opinion whould happen when a skater underrotates a jump. Let's say Mao does her usual setup into the triple axel and underrotates it more than usual, let's by 2/3 rotation but still manages to land it. Useing your logic, one should argue that her setup for those 2,33 rotations is too long and she should get a hit in the PCS for her choreography.

 

[ILuvYuna]

I totally disagree with you and think you get it all wrong

This shouldn't be a matter of opinion - there must be something from the IJS/comm. documents that explains if and how a fall affects the skater in each component. hwell:

Right now, I'm on the fence, because both BoP and Alba have a good point. I think BoP is right that from a choreographic standpoint, every part of the program is supposed to be an inseparable part of the whole and therefore, any jarring movement that does not correspond to the music ought to count against you in the ch/c component. On the other hand, I also agree with Alba that an error on a jump is essentially a failure to execute the choreography, which should be reflected in the p/e component (then again, they're already taking a hit for execution in the GoE score, so is it really fair to ding them again in the p/e component?).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yes it's fair IMO to reduce pcs for certain elements if they are performed subpar. If your StSeq is missing edges and you fall you should see your skating skills fall right?

Plus BoP can write a hilarious story about it!