2015-16 State of Russian Ice Dance

[Sugarpova]

and those two push each other to be better and battle it out. At their best, I could see them being a sort of light-and-dark styles: S/K doing light, airy programs and I/Z reveling in dramatic ones. Now that would be awesome to watch, and I think that could absolutely happen.

I'd be up for that
Thats what they can give. They're really the opposite style but both need polish & better tech
I dont think anyone of them lack personality tho but thats just me


as for tomorrow I expect I/Z to climb to the 3rd

 

[Ice Dance]

Is it just because jumps are the "riskiest" elements and dance doesn't have those? It feels like this uncertainty re: Russian dance is unusual. Or maybe it's just me

Jumps are worth far more points. In dance, you can't garner over a level four for your most difficult elements. So, for example, even though everyone knows the Shibs' twizzles are harder than the rest of the world, the only place they can earn extra points over the other top teams is on GOE. There are no elements in dance that can ever catapult a team 20 points above their peers. If you took the jumps and throws out of singles and pairs, and everyone had to compete based on the quality of spins and footwork, you would see the same tightness between scores & the same consistency of movement. Now and then an athlete would completely blow a spin or a death spiral, but their main competition would still never have 20 extra points on them even so.

I LOVE ice dance. I find it very exciting! And in my experience, people who watch skating competitions live often find they enjoy it more than the other disciplines. The performance quality, musical interpretation, and variety of styles often make watching 24 dance routines a much more audience-friendly event than 24 competitors in a singles event in which 90% of the music is the same and only the cream of the crop has learned to project. The excitement over the battle for the medals often ramps up during the final group, but there are a lot of programs before that fight comes into play.

 

[bekalc]

LOL. But seriously this is SK last year all over again. I won`t give up on IZ and I hope neither will the Russian Fed.

I don't think the situation is comparable. S/K were a very new team and it should hardly be shocking that they we're not ready by the GPs last year. They did skate better at nationals so already improvement was being shown.

They though have worked hard developed consistency and are showing improvement.

If I were the Russian federation I would be expecting similar improvement from I/Z.

They should be skating better than they were last year not worse. They have not had a clean competition in over a year. It's not okay and you knew what people need to stop saying it is all Elena's partners fault.

Dance is a team sport and if your teams are constantly inconsistent then maybe the team as a whole is doing something wrong.

 

[MK's Winter]

I don't think the situation is comparable. S/K were a very new team and it should hardly be shocking that they we're not ready by the GPs last year. They did skate better at nationals so already improvement was being shown. They though have worked hard developed consistency and are showing improvement. If I were the Russian federation I would be expecting similar improvement from I/Z. They should be skating better than they were last year not worse. They have not had a clean competition in over a year. It's not okay and you knew what people need to stop saying it is all Elena's partners fault. Dance is a team sport and if your teams are constantly inconsistent then maybe the team as a whole is doing something wrong.

So Elena and Ruslan were not a new team last year? They have the pressure of defending this year and living up to being Russia's number 1 team. It's not fair to give S/K a bye for their disaster of a season- they didn't even achieve the SD minimum until SA. After 10 months of work I expected them to. Elena and Ruslan haven't had that time. They have to work out inconsistency issues yes- were S/K really worthy of a 73 here with those twizzles and the 2 off steps I saw from Vika? Absolutely not. Do they deserve to lead yes. It's funny how all of those willing to write off S/K last season are that quick to write off I/Z when they came in under different circumstances. 2017 will tell the tale for both teams. Even S/K need a second season to continue to gel. If you put them clean against clean in terms of difficulty I/Z win out, style is what you make of it.

 

[Bumdid]

So Elena and Ruslan were not a new team last year? They have the pressure of defending this year and living up to being Russia's number 1 team. It's not fair to give S/K a bye for their disaster of a season- they didn't even achieve the SD minimum until SA. After 10 months of work I expected them to. Elena and Ruslan haven't had that time. They have to work out inconsistency issues yes- were S/K really worthy of a 73 here with those twizzles and the 2 off steps I saw from Vika? Absolutely not. Do they deserve to lead yes. It's funny how all of those willing to write off S/K last season are that quick to write off I/Z when they came in under different circumstances. 2017 will tell the tale for both teams. Even S/K need a second season to continue to gel. If you put them clean against clean in terms of difficulty I/Z win out, style is what you make of it.

I think because they come up so strong last year out of the gate, there are way, way more expectations for them this year to do even better and build up from their efforts last year. For some people, including me, we probably expect I/Z's inconsistencies to get better not somehow worse. I agree that they're still a new team and that everyone shouldn't be writing them off so soon. Even with mistakes, I still think the quality of their basic skating far, far exceed M/K and S/B.

I wonder if some of their problems are mental. They are pretty solid at Mordovian and COC so I think they are trained pretty well.

 

[MK's Winter]

I think because they come up so strong last year out of the gate, there are way, way more expectations for them this year to do even better and build up from their efforts last year. For some people, including me, we probably expect I/Z's inconsistencies to get better not somehow worse. I agree that they're still a new team and that everyone shouldn't be writing them off so soon. Even with mistakes, I still think the quality of their basic skating far, far exceed M/K and S/B. I wonder if some of their problems are mental. They are pretty solid at Mordovian and COC so I think they are trained pretty well.

I think it is completely mental at this point. I also think coaching plays a part as well. I/Z, I think are Kustrova and Alexva's first senior national champions. This is where the Fed should step in and guide the coaches as well. I know the SD hasn't been that well received and to change it would be a coaches call. I personally have no issue with it, I am all about innovation over the same canned crap, but that's a coaches call and I can't help but wonder if this is a learning process for the coaches as well.

 

[bekalc]

So Elena and Ruslan were not a new team last year? They have the pressure of defending this year and living up to being Russia's number 1 team. It's not fair to give S/K a bye for their disaster of a season- they didn't even achieve the SD minimum until SA. After 10 months of work I expected them to. Elena and Ruslan haven't had that time. They have to work out inconsistency issues yes- were S/K really worthy of a 73 here with those twizzles and the 2 off steps I saw from Vika? Absolutely not. Do they deserve to lead yes. It's funny how all of those willing to write off S/K last season are that quick to write off I/Z when they came in under different circumstances. 2017 will tell the tale for both teams. Even S/K need a second season to continue to gel. If you put them clean against clean in terms of difficulty I/Z win out, style is what you make of it.

Last time I checked both S/K and I/Z had the same amount of time together. Yes S/K had far fewer competitions, but that was hardly a scenario any team would choose. I/Z though had the same amount of competitions as many other top teams. Having less competitions isn't exactly an advantage it means you lose exposure and opportunities to get use to performing under pressure. However S/K clearly to the credit took the time to work hard and improve.

There's no excuse for I/Z though not to have taken the same amount of time and improved as well. After all other teams W/P and others all had the same amount of competitions. No one is expecting perfection from a team who is been together one season, but I think its fair to expect improvement. For a team to get more consistent and show they have worked on their weakness. This hasn't happened with I/Z.

I am sorry but I think year is a pretty good idea to get a concept of who is willing to put in the hard work that is necessary to improve and get better. Does this mean I/Z cannot improve. No. It doesn't. But clearly some things need to change because what they are doing now isn't working. And yes the money should be on S/K at this point..

And this isn't about liking programs. I am not in love with S/K free program. You cannot not necessarily like a program but still note that a team has gotten better technically. The longer a one year team skates together the better they should be. This is Ice Dance nobody is adding in a quad or a quad throw.

 

[MK's Winter]

Last time I checked both S/K and I/Z had the same amount of time together. Yes S/K had far fewer competitions, but that was hardly a scenario any team would choose. I/Z though had the same amount of competitions as many other top teams. Having less competitions isn't exactly an advantage it means you lose exposure and opportunities to get use to performing under pressure. However S/K clearly to the credit took the time to work hard and improve. There's no excuse for I/Z though not to have taken the same amount of time and improved as well. After all other teams W/P and others all had the same amount of competitions. No one is expecting perfection from a team who is been together one season, but I think its fair to expect improvement. For a team to get more consistent and show they have worked on their weakness. This hasn't happened with I/Z. I am sorry but I think year is a pretty good idea to get a concept of who is willing to put in the hard work that is necessary to improve and get better. Does this mean I/Z cannot improve. No. It doesn't. But clearly some things need to change because what they are doing now isn't working. And yes the money should be on S/K at this point.. And this isn't about liking programs. I am not in love with S/K free program. You cannot not necessarily like a program but still note that a team has gotten better technically. The longer a one year team skates together the better they should be. This is Ice Dance nobody is adding in a quad or a quad throw.

They have had the same time together and despite inconsistencies I/Z have more technically demanding programs, in comparison to the simplicity of S/K. S/K had no consistency last year and I/Z found themselves in a place they didn't expect to be. Elena's mistake was a fluke, loss of concentration/focus. I think the SD not being received well is getting to them and the lack of direction in coaching (i.e. Changing the SD) both teams are stilling gelling with each other. Ruslan had to learn how to deal with all of the sudden being center of attention with a superstar of a partner- same with Vika and even though she hasn't gone down yet- her struggles are evident. As I said 2017 will tell the tale for both.

 

[bekalc]

ITA that I/Z aren't the only team that has had to deal with things. S/K were raked over the coals for the decision to pair up. Look at what B/S had to deal with. It is what it is.

I am not saying that I/Z have to have better results than last year. I think they were lucky to win Russian Nationals last year etc. But I do think improvement as a team. Being less consistent doesn't help.

Also in general I really don't like their Short Dance. I don't think Waltz fits Queen at all. The movements don't seem to fit the music.

I know people are saying boring etc. But to be quite frank part of the Short Dance is to compare apples to apples. Something to be said to show you can do a traditional waltz.

 

[Abraxis12345]

I think the fans need to stop blaming everyone else and start blaming the actual athletes for their increasingly troublesome performances. The lift was a freak accident and the twizzles may be overly complicated, but that fall was just stupid. And there is no one to blame but them. I/Z could skate to the best programs choreographed by Vishnev, have costumes by Vera Wang, but it means nothing if they are constantly falling at every competition.

 

[MK's Winter]

I think the fans need to stop blaming everyone else and start blaming the actual athletes for their increasingly troublesome performances. The lift was a freak accident and the twizzles may be overly complicated, but that fall was just stupid. And there is no one to blame but them. I/Z could skate to the best programs choreographed by Vishnev, have costumes by Vera Wang, but it means nothing if they are constantly falling at every competition.

I believe I stated lack of concentration/focus. That puts it on no one but her.

 

[katha]

I would also like to point out that every Russian top team has to deal with extreme pressure. It's not singular to I/Z, it's the nature of the Russian Fed. B/S come back from a long injury, they have lost ground and need to prove themselves all over again. That Karponosov interview about their GPF performance was pretty harsh, too. That can't be easy, dealing with public criticism like that (I also question how constructive that sort of attitude towards your own athletes is, but that is a discussion about the Fed's MO and doesn't belong here). S/K had a very rough first season and I'm sure they got an earful from the Fed about that as well. The public, media and social media criticism they had to face also wasn't pretty. A lot of it was downright malicious in fact. Add in adapting to a new country and coach. Not an easy situation at all. You can even add in Stepanova/Bukin: They won a bronze at Euros last year. But they came into the season knowing that B/S are back and that S/K have improved. So facing a high likelihood of not even getting to Euros this time around even when they skate well. When they would be set for big international comps in almost any other country (excluding USA and perhaps Canada). That must also weigh on their minds.

As for I/Z: Of course they can improve, of course they shouldn't be written off because they're having a rough patch. But the pattern is becoming very, very troubling: They have made mistakes in how many competitions now? At this point they've skated more error-filled events than clean ones. That's not acceptable. They need to take a good, hard look at themselves and work out why it keeps happening. And the SD isn't a good vehicle for them. It was obvious in China that the judges had reservations about it. And that's been confirmed with every judging panel since. C/B and W/P changed SDs when it became clear that their old ones could get problematic, why wasn't something done with I/Z's? They're a good, talented team that's caught in a bit of a sophomore year struggle, it seems.

 

[MK's Winter]

I would also like to point out that every Russian top team has to deal with extreme pressure. It's not singular to I/Z, it's the nature of the Russian Fed. B/S come back from a long injury, they have lost ground and need to prove themselves all over again. That Karponosov interview about their GPF performance was pretty harsh, too. That can't be easy, dealing with public criticism like that (I also question how constructive that sort of attitude towards your own athletes is, but that is a discussion about the Fed's MO and doesn't belong here). S/K had a very rough first season and I'm sure they got an earful from the Fed about that as well. The public, media and social media criticism they had to face also wasn't pretty. A lot of it was downright malicious in fact. Add in adapting to a new country and coach. Not an easy situation at all. You can even add in Stepanova/Bukin: They won a bronze at Euros last year. But they came into the season knowing that B/S are back and that S/K have improved. So facing a high likelihood of not even getting to Euros this time around even when they skate well. When they would be set for big international comps in almost any other country (excluding USA and perhaps Canada). That must also weigh on their minds. As for I/Z: Of course they can improve, of course they shouldn't be written off because they're having a rough patch. But the pattern is becoming very, very troubling: They have made mistakes in how many competitions now? At this point they've skated more error-filled events than clean ones. That's not acceptable. They need to take a good, hard look at themselves and work out why it keeps happening. And the SD isn't a good vehicle for them. It was obvious in China that the judges had reservations about it. And that's been confirmed with every judging panel since. C/B and W/P changed SDs when it became clear that their old ones could get problematic, why wasn't something done with I/Z's? They're a good, talented team that's caught in a bit of a sophomore year struggle, it seems.

Sophomore slump and I I believe an error in coaching. While I/Z believe in their SD, I think after having reservations about their FD last year cost them. They believed in Carmen and we all saw where that went. I think their coaches should have stepped in after COR (because changing the program in between was not enough time) and made a change. I/Z are the first World beaters they have had at this level. They need to listen to the feed back they are receiving. And I like their coaching team, they have put together great skaters but if your going to keep a team you need to play the game, especially when you want recognition as top coaches.

 

[Ice Dance]

And the SD isn't a good vehicle for them. It was obvious in China that the judges had reservations about it. And that's been confirmed with every judging panel since. C/B and W/P changed SDs when it became clear that their old ones could get problematic, why wasn't something done with I/Z's? They're a good, talented team that's caught in a bit of a sophomore year struggle, it seems.

Agreed.

Part of it is expectations. When you have that great start--and they were pushed hard last season--then the expectations are there for you to continue on the same trajectory. Faster & steeper than others who started off slower. Those expectations likely added a lot of pressure and might well have been impossible to meet at this stage of the partnership. But this SD was a mistake. The program wasn't fixed early. (They were sent the wrong message at their debut competition). And now here we are.

OTOH, this happens. It happens to a lot of teams. Straight upward is rarely the normal trajectory. Most dance teams hit roadblocks and obstacles and a lousy program sooner rather than later. Hubbell & Donahue were right here last season with their Great Gatsby number. The Shibs went through it in 2012 with their polka. Weaver & Poje in 2013. Bobrova & Soloviev with the birds program. Cappellini & Lanotte's free last season. I&K with Ghost.

You learn from it. Sometimes it's a temporary glitch and sometimes it's a long road back; but it's all part of the journey.

 

[Mattieu]

If I was the Russian Federation, I'd stick to their previous tried and trusted method.
They usually send to Euros the top 2 at Nationals and then the 3rd couple, they like to send a young up and coming couple.
This can be seen from the season that Sinitsina/Zhiganshin got sent instead of Riaznova/Tkachenko, who finished 3rd in Nationals.
So going by that logic, even if I/Z move back up to 3rd, the Russian fed won't necessarily send the to Euros.

So let's consider who is an up and coming younger couple?
N/M have not exactly been inspiring, but S/B are still comparatively young.
So S/B could well be sent to Euros even if they finish 4th today.

So for me the Euros team is the medallists from yesterday.

Z/G have finally won me over despite the twizzle error, they stand out not only for their good looks, but also for their strong presentation.
IMO they were under marked on their PCS, as someone else has already mentioned, they had the best waltz pattern of all the couples.

 

[Marta25]

If I was the Russian Federation, I'd stick to their previous tried and trusted method.
They usually send to Euros the top 2 at Nationals and then the 3rd couple, they like to send a young up and coming couple.
This can be seen from the season that Sinitsina/Zhiganshin got sent instead of Riaznova/Tkachenko, who finished 3rd in Nationals.
So going by that logic, even if I/Z move back up to 3rd, the Russian fed won't necessarily send the to Euros.

So let's consider who is an up and coming younger couple?
N/M have not exactly been inspiring, but S/B are still comparatively young.
So S/B could well be sent to Euros even if they finish 4th today.

So for me the Euros team is the medallists from yesterday.

Z/G have finally won me over despite the twizzle error, they stand out not only for their good looks, but also for their strong presentation.
IMO they were under marked on their PCS, as someone else has already mentioned, they had the best waltz pattern of all the couples.

SZ were 3rd at Nationals, not RT. Both were sent to Euros, where SZ ended up above RT. That`s why SZ got the third Olympic spot.

 

[Mattieu]

SZ were 3rd at Nationals, not RT. Both were sent to Euros, where SZ ended up above RT. That`s why SZ got the third Olympic spot.

My bad, memory failing me in my old age

 

[Sugarpova]

I agree re: Z/G
If I was the Fed I really would put stock in them

& the talk of feedback is the right talk
Thats why its baffling how no dance teams ever go to senior Bs

 

[gmyers]

All the eggs are going in the b/s basket like was the story from 2011 to 2014. There was a year off but the facts are still the same. B/s didn't win a medal in sochi only because of the bizarre actions of zhulin that allowed for I/k momentum to build as b/s were a wreck. Now eveything is back to normal and b/s will have total domination til 2018. So many in Russian federation were talking about age and experience being the most important thing.

Totally happened!!

 

[Snow63]

Totally happened!!

And they just proved that it's a very dangerous path for the Fed to stake everything on such a new team.