2015 World Team Trophy Mens SP Apr 16

[alia jackson]

Glad that the skaters are having fun.....while some fans are getting high blood pressure

Gorgeous skating from Yuzu . All I want is for the LP to be over, then he can get his second surgery and rest till next season.

 

[Meoima]

It's more the idea that a program like that can get 96 points, even in a fun event -- especially one where the scores still count towards personal best scores.
I still totally think Hanyu deserved to be in first, by a margin... but maybe 92-93 points... and certainly not with PCS that high.
Like, would people criticize if the judges gave him 10.00's, or just accept it because he would have come in 1st and picked up 12 points anyways?

Well it's more like commercial event so I don't even take the score seriously. Do you remember any performance in WTT being considered as all time best even though they broke barriers?

I don't even come back to watch Daisuke's performance record performances at WTT 2012 honestly even though I love that program, the one at WC matters, the one at WTT not so much.
Most people come back and watch skaters performance at GPF, WC and Olympic. And scores in those event matter. Here not so much IMO.

Well, maybe in the future when this event get more recognization we shall see how they see it. For now I don't even mind as we all know it's the placement that counts, not the score.

Just assume if he skated cleanly and they gave him a World Record, it still doesn't matter, do you think he would like it or trade it for another world title? getting huge scores here means not much, since next season they will have to start from scratch again with new programs.

 

[alia jackson]

Hanyu's mistake doesn't take away from the rest of his performance, and his 4T and 3A seamless transitioned with the delicate nuounces of the music is a different class to the rest of the field. It is probably as close to a Patrick Chan program it is going to get and then some. 96 may be a bit high, but this is a field without Denis or Javier. He got some Japanese home bonus, plus OGM champion, now he got everything Patrick used to get, so if you didn't complain about Patrick then, you should complain about him now. It comes with the territory of being a reigning champion and leader of his field.

Honestly, has there been a better or more effortless 4T than Hanyu right now? That was a real beauty.

during the off-season i went through the archive of previous competitions interesting to read what people were posting then

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well it's more like commercial event so I don't even take the score seriously. Do remember any performance in WTT being considered as all time best even though they broke barriers?
Most people come back and watch skaters performance at GPF, WC and Olympic. And scores in those event matter. Here it doesn't matter.

So... what about Brown's/Gold's personal bests?

I understand it's the placement that counts. But judging should at least attempt to be consistent. It's a bit demoralizing to skaters who see a flawed skate get mid-90s when if they themselves skate perfectly clean (even with 2 quads, like Menshov), they wouldn't even come close.

 

[Meoima]

So... what about Brown's/Gold's personal bests?
I understand it's the placement that counts. But judging should at least attempt to be consistent. It's a bit demoralizing to skaters who see a flawed skate get mid-90s when if they themselves skate perfectly clean (even with 2 quads, like Menshov), they wouldn't even come close.

I have no problem with Jason and Gracie personal best honestly. Even if they gave Garcie 78 for that. It doesn't matter. I couldn't think of any useful reason for this so call personal best at WTT.
For example I am glad for Gracie to get it done, but why not at WC? Here's it's fun and good for her. But still it's also bittersweet.
And even W/P, PB here changes nothing at all, the fact that they lost the WC.
Getting that score here sounds like redemption right, so what next? Get some money and go home, take a rest and do totally new programs again. Still no title this season.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Assuming you're not being sarcastic....

Are you (and all other Kovtun haters) going to dwell on 2013 for how long? He was a junior essentially sent to Senior Worlds -- he was slated to do badly from the get-go and the Russian fed put a goldfish in a shark tank. Are you honestly criticizing him for not having a destructive career just because he couldn't get 2 Olympic spots which no other Russian man (other than Plu) would have gotten anyways?

Also, Kovtun is liked by the judges (a little too much... and Voronov isn't for some reason), but his federation doesn't give him a ton of special treatment -- he didn't even get to go to the Olympics -- when was the last time the reigning Russian champion didn't go to the subsequent Olympics? Hah, "special treatment" indeed.

Kovtun might be a brat, but he's been the only Russian to beat Plushenko since Yagudin, is a 2-time National champion, has medalled at all four GP events in his first two senior seasons including 2 wins (and not outrageous wins... he wasn't great, but he was still the best of the field in each and skated an excellent FS at TEB to win gold), was 4th at just his second Worlds (in what most would *legitimately* call his first "senior" season), and also came 2nd at Euros this year. Technically speaking -- he added a second 4T to his LP during his junior season, had a comparatively consistent 4S by the following season (and a 3-quad LP), and is one of the only men in the field to have attempted (and landed) 2 quads in his SP.

As for Gachinski, he has no notable results since his well-earned 2011 World bronze other than a 2012 Euro silver. He's never placed higher than 5th in ten Grand Prix appearances (compared to Kovtun who has 2 silvers and 2 golds in his four Grand Prix appearances). Gachinski's career destruction was his own doing. Kovtun bombed at 2013 Worlds and came back the next season on fire winning 2 GP silvers and Russian Nationals (but was jipped of going to the Olympics by Plu who was given the spot essentially on reputation - sorry, a "closed test skate" and without having to compete at Euros -- talk about special treatment! ). And this year, he won 2 GP golds and Russian Nationals again, and a Euros silver. Worlds was dicey, but he had no shot at a medal anyways given how Fernandez/Hanyu/Ten performed.

I'm probably one one the few who doesn't hate on Kovtun. Okay, so yeah, he doesn't have the best personality. But he's being ambitious with doing 2 quads in a SP. Only 3 skaters (Counting him) have successfully done it. I consider that really cool.

I myself didn't get into the craziness of figure skating fandom until the Olympics (Though I wish I did because some of my wishes aren't going to come true the way it's looking unless some miracle happens), so I can't say anything about 2013 Worlds.

And speaking of Gachinski, I saw him skate at Skate America 2014, and well...yeah...not that great. I mean it was okay. But it wasn't WOW.

 

[dorispulaski]

Watch Gold's skate on dailymotion where a user called Japan Figure Skating has uploaded coverage from Japanese TV rather than streaming video, so the audio and video are correctly synched. That is the best SP I have ever seen Gracie do. Ever. So it should be her personal best score.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2muome_グレイシー-ゴールド-gracie-gold-2015-world-team-trophy-sp_sport

I hope Japanese Tv coverage for the whole event will eventually surface.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Yah, but my question is why don't they just add the scores (highest if there's two entries) instead of giving placement scores. Am I missing a disadvantage to this?

 

[Violet Bliss]

Yah, but my question is why don't they just add the scores (highest if there's two entries) instead of giving placement scores. Am I missing a disadvantage to this?

This event and its previous version have always been about adding up placement points for each team. Scores only serve to place each performance and each team. Scores are not added for each skater or each team. Just placements/ordinals. Kind of like 6.0, eh?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm probably one one the few who doesn't hate on Kovtun. Okay, so yeah, he doesn't have the best personality. But he's being ambitious with doing 2 quads in a SP. Only 3 skaters (Counting him) have successfully done it. I consider that really cool.

I myself didn't get into the craziness of figure skating fandom until the Olympics (Though I wish I did because some of my wishes aren't going to come true the way it's looking unless some miracle happens), so I can't say anything about 2013 Worlds.

And speaking of Gachinski, I saw him skate at Skate America 2014, and well...yeah...not that great. I mean it was okay. But it wasn't WOW.

His personality off-ice is self-entitled and I think many here love the schadenfreude that comes with his failures (e.g. Worlds SPs, Voronov beating him, missing the Olympics). It makes people want to see him mess up (I can't only imagine the cheers of his haters whenever he falls or pops) -- and that's a bit pathetic to wish ill on a skater. I don't like Kovtun's personality, but I respect him pushing himself technically. And frankly, I couldn't care less about his posture going into his quads -- he still lands them more consistently than many of the other guys... and it's amusing when Kovtun skates like his FS at TEB and haters have little to say so they call his jumps ugly.

If anything, I love seeing Kovtun succeed because it's a screw you to the haters who want to see him fail (I felt the same about Ilinykh and Tuktamysheva).

 

[Mathman]

Yah, but my question is why don't they just add the scores (highest if there's two entries) instead of giving placement scores. Am I missing a disadvantage to this?

I think the idea is that adding scores instead of placementds would give more weight to the men's event, where the scores are automatically higher maybe more like;ly to produce a larger spread as well, at least compared to ladies.

 

[yyyskate]

agree with OS about Yuzuru and Yanhan.
just wanna add Han's 3A is THE biggest 3A on this planet in terms of size. his launch speed(according to japanese commentator 2 times as other skaters), momentum and landing speed is monstrous, so in terms of transitions, he could'not do immediate intricate transitions as Yuzuru does, but he can tag along very difficult transitions after just a little buffer. think about inertia. both class of the world in terms of 3A and fabulous in different ways.
about Yuzuru, you know I like his skating a lot:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu was mesmerizing, starting with his quad, which he tossed off so easily. He floated from that right into a huge 3a and into some of his low spins, all so incredibly synchronized with the music. On to the combo, then he fell on the second jump, got up and went right on with his intricate footwork. He is just so completely connected with his music!

His footwork was quite well done, although the timing was off because of the disruptive fall right before it -- good concentration though, ensuring the final spin was a level 4 and finishing on the music.

 

[gmyers]

Assuming you're not being sarcastic....

Are you (and all other Kovtun haters) going to dwell on 2013 for how long? He was a junior essentially sent to Senior Worlds -- he was slated to do badly from the get-go and the Russian fed put a goldfish in a shark tank. Are you honestly criticizing him for not having a destructive career just because he couldn't get 2 Olympic spots which no other Russian man (other than Plu) would have gotten anyways?

Also, Kovtun is liked by the judges (a little too much... and Voronov isn't for some reason), but his federation doesn't give him a ton of special treatment -- he didn't even get to go to the Olympics -- when was the last time the reigning Russian champion didn't go to the subsequent Olympics? Hah, "special treatment" indeed.

Kovtun might be a brat, but he's been the only Russian to beat Plushenko since Yagudin, is a 2-time National champion, has medalled at all four GP events in his first two senior seasons including 2 wins (and not outrageous wins... he wasn't great, but he was still the best of the field in each and skated an excellent FS at TEB to win gold), was 4th at just his second Worlds (in what most would *legitimately* call his first "senior" season), and also came 2nd at Euros this year. Technically speaking -- he added a second 4T to his LP during his junior season, had a comparatively consistent 4S by the following season (and a 3-quad LP), and is one of the only men in the field to have attempted (and landed) 2 quads in his SP.

As for Gachinski, he has no notable results since his well-earned 2011 World bronze other than a 2012 Euro silver. He's never placed higher than 5th in ten Grand Prix appearances (compared to Kovtun who has 2 silvers and 2 golds in his four Grand Prix appearances). Gachinski's career destruction was his own doing. Kovtun bombed at 2013 Worlds and came back the next season on fire winning 2 GP silvers and Russian Nationals (but was jipped of going to the Olympics by Plu who was given the spot essentially on reputation - sorry, a "closed test skate" and without having to compete at Euros -- talk about special treatment! ). And this year, he won 2 GP golds and Russian Nationals again, and a Euros silver. Worlds was dicey, but he had no shot at a medal anyways given how Fernandez/Hanyu/Ten performed.

2013 is the best example of kovtun special treatment. Him getting special treatment explains his two russian titles. I disagree about gachinski becaus he beat kovtun but yet kovtun is still sent over him. Kovtun was a Inappropriate choice for 2013 euros forget about 2013 worlds. Why he was sent there is forever a mystery. Just he has a special status that's not explained by anything. He won gp medals and then voronov wins gpf medal. He didn't medal at the gpf voronov did. Of course plushenko special treatment is explained by his great successes unlike all kovtuns special treatment that ignores two world bombs, 2 euro bombs, gpf bomb, 2015 Russian nationals fs bomb. Two quad Sps that he rarely completes.

It's just obvious kovtun's been cast in a role he absolutely cannot fulfill at all.

 

[Sandpiper]

I have no problem with Jason and Gracie personal best honestly. Even if they gave Garcie 78 for that. It doesn't matter. I couldn't think of any useful reason for this so call personal best at WTT.
For example I am glad for Gracie to get it done, but why not at WC? Here's it's fun and good for her. But still it's also bittersweet.
And even W/P, PB here changes nothing at all, the fact that they lost the WC.
Getting that score here sounds like redemption right, so what next? Get some money and go home, take a rest and do totally new programs again. Still no title this season.

So it wouldn't matter to you if Gracie Gold is now the World Record Holder for the Ladies SP?

 

[xibsuarz]

Yah, but my question is why don't they just add the scores (highest if there's two entries) instead of giving placement scores. Am I missing a disadvantage to this?

I really don't know the reason behind it. The only thing I could come up with is if the difference in scores between two placements is too big. Kind of like the difference in scores between Denis and Jason at Worlds. Having the placement score plays to the advantage of the lower ranked skater and doesn't let the points between each country drift away so much (I think). Though this plays against the top skaters.
As for only using the highest score in singles, then there would not be much point in sending two. If two skaters from the same country perform great and finish 1-2 or 2-3 like Liza and Lena, one of them, the lowest ranked, would have skated a great program for nothing in terms of helping their team since only the highest would count.
Idk these were the reasons I could come up with.

 

[padme21]

Can we PLEASE just stop with so and so's being overscored , the judges are being generous, no one should get PCS that high bandwagon! I'm sick of it everytime Hanyu gets his scores the first thing people do is scream overscored. We're NOT the judges! The WTT is a fun event and I want to enjoy it without this drama!

 

[cheerknithanson]

Can we PLEASE just stop with so and so's being overscored , the judges are being generous, no one should get PCS that high bandwagon! I'm sick of it everytime Hanyu gets his scores the first thing people do is scream overscored. We're NOT the judges! The WTT is a fun event and I want to enjoy it without this drama!

:thumbsup: :agree:

THANK YOU!!!!!!! It makes me frustrated when people say that cause he's one of my 3 favorite skaters. I don't complain about anyone getting "too high" of a score. No scoring system is perfect. There's going to be flaws and we need to shake it off. Besides, the PCS are AVERAGED! So yeah there could be outliers (Learned that in biostatistics last semester).

We're not all going to be fans of the same skaters, but we need to show respect. Like I'm not a fan of Plushy and Patrick Chan. But I respect their achievements and let people who like them rave about them.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

2013 is the best example of kovtun special treatment. Him getting special treatment explains his two russian titles. I disagree about gachinski becaus he beat kovtun but yet kovtun is still sent over him. Kovtun was a Inappropriate choice for 2013 euros forget about 2013 worlds. Why he was sent there is forever a mystery. Just he has a special status that's not explained by anything. He won gp medals and then voronov wins gpf medal. He didn't medal at the gpf voronov did. Of course plushenko special treatment is explained by his great successes unlike all kovtuns special treatment that ignores two world bombs, 2 euro bombs, gpf bomb, 2015 Russian nationals fs bomb. Two quad Sps that he rarely completes.

It's just obvious kovtun's been cast in a role he absolutely cannot fulfill at all.

What are you talking about? Every SP this season has had two quad attempts, except for this one at WTT (probably because it's a fun competition anyways).

Special treatment explains his 2 Russian titles? So, you're saying he shouldn't have won his title in 2014?! (If anyone got special treatment it was Plushenko getting 2nd at Russian Nats with that horrendous FS, and then gifted an Olympics spot without having to compete at Euros like all the other Russian guys, including Kovtun, had to).

The only special treatment Kovtun got was going to Euro/Worlds over Gachinski - who would have probably ended up 17th (or worse) himself anyways, and I doubt he would have finished higher than Kovtun's 5th at Euros --- if anything, he did Gachinski a favour by relieving him of the inevitable pressure of having to get 2 spots for the Olympics and the scorn that came with failing to do so (not that any Russian man could have for certain gotten 2 spots, other than Plushenko).


Also, Voronov beat him at the GPF, yes. By 2 points. And Kovtun didn't "bomb" his Russian Nationals FS in 2015 - he turned a 4S into a 2S -- same thing with his GPF "bomb". That was his only major error -- Voronov could have won Nats, but himself had errors too with a stumble on his second quad and triple axel.

FYI, Kovtun bombed at only 1 Euros - 2014 (where he came 5th), 1 Worlds as a junior who moved up to senior in the same season. He bombed at the 2013-2014 GPF, but at least he qualified for it with two GP silvers.

Although you clearly dislike Kovtun, so I'm sure he could skate a clean program with 3 quads and 2 axels, have a minor stepout of a jump, and then you'd say he bombed.

 

[gmyers]

What are you talking about? Every SP this season has had two quad attempts, except for this one at WTT (probably because it's a fun competition anyways).

Special treatment explains his 2 Russian titles? So, you're saying he shouldn't have won his title in 2014?! (If anyone got special treatment it was Plushenko getting 2nd at Russian Nats with that horrendous FS, and then gifted an Olympics spot without having to compete at Euros like all the other Russian guys, including Kovtun, had to).

The only special treatment Kovtun got was going to Euro/Worlds over Gachinski - who would have probably ended up 17th (or worse) himself anyways, and I doubt he would have finished higher than Kovtun's 5th at Euros --- if anything, he did Gachinski a favour by relieving him of the inevitable pressure of having to get 2 spots for the Olympics and the scorn that came with failing to do so (not that any Russian man could have for certain gotten 2 spots, other than Plushenko).

Also, Voronov beat him at the GPF, yes. By 2 points. And Kovtun didn't "bomb" his Russian Nationals FS in 2015 - he turned a 4S into a 2S -- same thing with his GPF "bomb". That was his only major error -- Voronov could have won Nats, but himself had errors too with a stumble on his second quad and triple axel.

FYI, Kovtun bombed at 1 Euros - 2014, 1 Worlds as a junior who moved up to senior in the same season. He bombed at the 2013-2014 GPF, but at least he qualified for it with two GP silvers.

Although you clearly dislike Kovtun, so I'm sure he could skate a clean program with 3 quads and 2 axels, have a minor stepout of a jump, and then you'd say he bombed.

I said rarely completed two quad Sps. He doesn't accomplish it. Falls and pops all season! I consider completed as two landed.

Yes it's a battle of special treatment of both plushenko and kovtun! But I support plushenko special treatment because of all his major success! Kovtun should be nowhere near plushenko even in special treatment pcs scores. In a perfect fs world with no special treatment voronov or menshov would've been in sochi! But it wasn't that way.

The point about gachinski was only that gachinski beat kovtun at nationals. Neither should've been anywhere near euros or worlds. That needed to be menshov in 2013 for that euros spot. Plushenko, voronov, menshov substitute gachinski

Kovtun did bomb euros 2013. Double axel in sp and fs second half collapse

I said kovtun was actually really good in the fs at 2014 teb!