2016-17 State of Japanese Ladies Skating

[gotoschool]

I am glad that Mao is doing something different this season. Her jumps looked sharp here, but she needs more speed and power in real competition. Seems she is still getting used to the program.

I think the rink is too small for her to go all out since she uses expansive rink coverage right up to the boards even in a large rink. But, I do agree it is still early in the season and the program's choreography is complex and intricate. I really love her SP. Mao's speed has always been deceptive anyway since she doesn't pump her shoulders, hunch and pick her legs up and down a lot to gain speed. Yet, her expansive rink coverage really shows she has excellent speed considering her fluid motions. I really noticed this when I saw her live right on the ice.

As I watched this performance more and more I realized the great precision, force and subtlety in the rapid turns and quick steps and head turns. I would rather see this kind of unobtrusive fluidity, subtlety and beauty instead of straight crossover or herky jerky and hunching motions to gain speed. But, I think Mao will be a bit faster anyway in a bigger rink, especially when she gets more used to the choreography.

I also heard that she skated with more force in the next show, but that it was hard not to come into contact with the boards when she did. I wish these exhibitions could be in full size rinks.

 

[nolangoh]

I like Mao's program. :agree:

So what is her planned layout? 3A 3F2Lo 3Lo? Maybe not a bad idea considering she has around 78 pts when clean for similar layout during 2014 WC. Even though I would prefer to see her do 3-3 and 3Lz with her 3A, it seems to be dragging her down last season with UR and edge call (and pops). Downside of this is she will really depend on her 3A to score high in the SP.

I think its the same as last season. Plan A (4 triples) and Plan B (3 triples). But of course I would like to see Plan A! She is probably the one who does an all-triples SP gracefully!

 

[mcq]

I think its the same as last season. Plan A (4 triples) and Plan B (3 triples). But of course I would like to see Plan A! She is probably the one who does an all-triples SP gracefully!

Thanks! Glad she is not completely giving up on doing the 3-3lo cause I like that combo, though honestly I am not so sure if it is a good idea since last season she got so many UR call for this combo and it cost her so many pts (same with the edge call on her 3Lz). I hope this season Mao could finally, finally get over her UR issues that has been dragging her down all along. I kind of want her to still be on top just to make a point that longevity is possible in today's FS.

 

[Ginask8s]

Here's the long awaited full SP performance from Mao, at The Ice Nagoya show:

https://youtu.be/486CiZo_Ko8

:hap93:

This program is brilliant interesting and got my attention immediately! Bravo and LOVE the rhythmic inspired dress!

 

[gsyzf]

I like Mao's program. :agree:

So what is her planned layout? 3A 3F2Lo 3Lo? Maybe not a bad idea considering she has around 78 pts when clean for similar layout during 2014 WC. Even though I would prefer to see her do 3-3 and 3Lz with her 3A, it seems to be dragging her down last season with UR and edge call (and pops). Downside of this is she will really depend on her 3A to score high in the SP.

3A 3F2Lo 3Lo is a risky layout. If she doubles 3lo, she will zayak. If she misses 3A or UR 3A, she won't score very high with a 3-2 combo and a low SP score means she is out of medal contention. The only way to score well with this layout is to land the 3A without UR. But the odds of landing 3A for any lady is low.

I don't think UR and edge calls are the main reason that drag down her scores. I think the lack of 3-3s is the main reason that drags down her score. Since she doesn't do 3-3s or can't rotate 3-3s, she has very limited options left once she misses a jump combo. E.g. if she doesn't land 3f well, and can't add 3lo, then she will just lose the entire BV of 3lo because she can't add 3lo to other jumps either. She also can't do 3t combo, so she also can't add 3t to other jumps to make up the loss of BV.

The other girls are training 3t combo not just because it's easier to do a 3t combo than a 3lo combo, but also because it's easier to add 3t to other triples in case they miss the first 3-3.

I feel like Mao is insisting on things that are not crucial in getting points, e.g. wrong edge of 3lz (everybody has wrong edge in either 3lz or 3f, it's really not a big crime to have wrong edge in 3lz.), and ignoring things that are crucial in getting points, i.e. 3-3s. IMO, she is better off spending her time to train 3-3s than to spend her time on trying to fix her 3lz edge. Fixing 3lz edge impacted the consistency of her 3F and resulted in pops. Ashley is about the same age as Mao. If she can train 3-3s at her age, Mao can too.

When skaters design their layout and train their skills, they should not only think about the points they can get when they land their jumps, but also the points they can get when they don't' land all their jumps. (Post puberty ladies can't skate clean very often. They rarely skate clean 7 triple programs that have 3-3s and transitions.) Mao bad performances usually still look cleaner than other girls' bad performances, but she would score lower due to the lack of 3-3s. People only remembers the placements and medals of a competition, not the performance. Mao's layout and lack of 3-3s make her look more inconsistent than she really is because her layout and skill doesn't allow her to make up points once she makes a mistake.

 

[miki88]

People only remembers the placements and medals of a competition, not the performance.

I disagree. Many times it is a great performance, whether it medals or not, that sticks in people's minds.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The only way to score well with this layout is to land the 3A without UR. But the odds of landing 3A for any lady is low.

Well, most layouts have that pesky bad habit that you have to land your stuff to get the points.
Ladies who train their 3-3's but UR or pop the 3T are in the same position. The only point that makes sense is that after a bad landing on the first jump, you can add the 3T to your second jump... but then so can - theoretically - Mao with her 3Lo or 2Lo.

But duh, Mao's layout is riskier than that of most ladies. That's the point. That's why it gives her a higher BV when she lands it and that yadda yadda.

People only remembers the placements and medals of a competition, not the performance.

No? I remember Mao's Sochi LP a lot better than that of the 3 actual medalists. I remember a lot of skates from Akiko Suzuki that never got probably rewarded but made me tear up (like 2013 NHK). And there are more like these... sure, only really big FS fans could say that. But then the general public doesn't know the medalists either.

 

[gsyzf]

I disagree. Many times it is a great performance, whether it medals or not, that sticks in people's minds.

To the loyal fans of an athlete or loyal skating fans, it doesn't matter whether he/she medals. But to casual fans, the only performances that will get their attention are medal winning performances. A bad performance that wins medals is still psychologically perceived as better than a better performance that don't win medals. That's just what most casual viewers or non-loyal fans think.

 

[MaxSwagg]

To the loyal fans of an athlete or loyal skating fans, it doesn't matter whether he/she medals. But to casual fans, the only performances that will get their attention are medal winning performances. A bad performance that wins medals is still psychologically perceived as better than a better performance that don't win medals. That's just what most casual viewers or non-loyal fans think.

She's a three time world champion and Olympic silver medalist. I don't think people will have a hard time remembering...

 

[TheCzar]

To the loyal fans of an athlete or loyal skating fans, it doesn't matter whether he/she medals. But to casual fans, the only performances that will get their attention are medal winning performances. A bad performance that wins medals is still psychologically perceived as better than a better performance that don't win medals. That's just what most casual viewers or non-loyal fans think.

Not true at all. Some people remember programs because of the music, or the costume, or whether or not it stood out. I have friends who watched the Sochi games with me (they were watching other events but I stole the remote) and wondered why the Russian girl wearing nothing but gray fabric won. They thought The Asian girl who did the Tango was better. Or the other Asian girl who cried at the end. Or that minx who did that hip thing when she skated.

It depends on who you ask. But then again, it sounds like you've really canvassed and statistically asked. every. single. 'casual' viever. or. non-loyal fans. Also- can you call them fans if they're non-loyal?

 

[Celine]

Wow. Lovely lovely exquisite SP. Go Mao!

 

[chuckm]

Mao loses points because she URs jumps. She plans 3F+3lo, but the 3lo often doesn't happen, or if she does try it, the 3lo gets UR or DG. Sometimes even the 2lo in her combos gets UR. Her 3A can be an asset, but it can also be a big minus if she URs it then falls. Mao sometimes inexplicably doubles jumps that clearly were meant to be triples.

Her Worlds 2016 FS shows the UR problem:

3a<, 3f+3lo<, 2ze, 2a+3t<, 3s, 3f+2lo+2lo, 3lo

Three URs and a doubled jump. Lots of points lost.

 

[gotoschool]

To the loyal fans of an athlete or loyal skating fans, it doesn't matter whether he/she medals. But to casual fans, the only performances that will get their attention are medal winning performances. A bad performance that wins medals is still psychologically perceived as better than a better performance that don't win medals. That's just what most casual viewers or non-loyal fans think.

I guess that's why a copy Mao's Sochi LP with almost 3 million views on youtube was deleted by the IOC to give the "appearance" that the performance was forgotten when it was actually one of the most viewed performances in Olympic history even without IOC backing and a poor quality copy at that and this was after another copy with over 1 million views was removed. Some casual fans I know that watched Mao's Sochi LP 2014 and her Worlds 2016 LP thought she gave the best performance and the number of views on youtube indicate this. There are very many people that do not take the scores for performances at face value and decide for themselves what they like best because the scoring is often suspect, subjective or based on double standards in tech calls and GOE or on big fluctuations and inversions in PCS scores.

 

[Ultra]

To the loyal fans of an athlete or loyal skating fans, it doesn't matter whether he/she medals. But to casual fans, the only performances that will get their attention are medal winning performances. A bad performance that wins medals is still psychologically perceived as better than a better performance that don't win medals. That's just what most casual viewers or non-loyal fans think.

Just a Reality Check: No one in the real world takes judged sports completely seriously, especially with all the scandals in recently.
Most casual viewers want judged sports removed from the Olympics entirely.
The reputation of FS judging is in the mud, all because the ISU is beyond corrupt.

Her Worlds 2016 FS shows the UR problem:

3a<, 3f+3lo<, 2ze, 2a+3t<, 3s, 3f+2lo+2lo, 3lo

Three URs and a doubled jump. Lots of points lost.

The triple axel call was HARSH. It was unfair compared to all of the skaters who placed above her. Satoko, Wagner especially.

The System is irrefutably biased against Mao.
The new Russian skater gets a completely free pass on the Flutz, Satoko gets a pass on the Lip, Wagner and plenty of others have real URs but no downgrades...

It will be hard if not impossible to overcome that kind of un-favoritism.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The triple axel call was HARSH.

The System is irrefutably biased against her.

I actually kind of wondered if she maybe two footed the landed on the 3a but no one really ever brought it up.
https://youtu.be/SaPw62cURKQ?t=39s

I love Mao and agree she is judged harshly. More so than others at times and for me it's not about others being judged more harshly but rather them easing up on Mao as the issue. I already hate the tech panel lopping points off of programs the way they do now. But TBH I can see why the made the calls they did at 2016 WC. hwell:

 

[Ultra]

I love Mao and agree she is judged harshly. More so than others at times and for me it's not about others being judged more harshly but rather them easing up on Mao as the issue. I already hate the tech panel lopping points off of programs the way they do now.

It had a touchdown with the second foot, but I don't think that deserves to lose 30% of the BV and negative GOE.

The definition for what constitutes a mistake must be applied to ALL contestants equally or this is not a real sport.

I would agree that the CoP rules are too strict compared to 6.0, but not all skaters are given the same level of strictness.

But TBH I can see why the made the calls they did at 2016 WC.

Their calls do not make any sense compared to the 6 places above her.
Pick one standard, strict or lenient, and apply it to everyone equally.
The judges tech calls *do not* make sense compared to how they treat Satoko, Wagner, Gracie, The Russians.

 

[largeman]

3A 3F2Lo 3Lo is a risky layout. If she doubles 3lo, she will zayak.

She gets zero points if she doubles any solo triple jump
(In the past I would've said, don't worry she never messes up her solo 3Lo... but last time I said this, I jinxed her at the nationals )

If she misses 3A or UR 3A, she won't score very high with a 3-2 combo and a low SP score means she is out of medal contention. The only way to score well with this layout is to land the 3A without UR. But the odds of landing 3A for any lady is low.

I don't think UR and edge calls are the main reason that drag down her scores. I think the lack of 3-3s is the main reason that drags down her score. Since she doesn't do 3-3s or can't rotate 3-3s, she has very limited options left once she misses a jump combo. E.g. if she doesn't land 3f well, and can't add 3lo, then she will just lose the entire BV of 3lo because she can't add 3lo to other jumps either. She also can't do 3t combo, so she also can't add 3t to other jumps to make up the loss of BV.

The other girls are training 3t combo not just because it's easier to do a 3t combo than a 3lo combo, but also because it's easier to add 3t to other triples in case they miss the first 3-3.

We have to face the fact that she's been doing the 2A-3T since 2010-11 (and back in 2006-07 too). Her success rate on getting the 3T ratified is not high. This past season she had only two successful attempts - Japan Open and NHK (two-footed, but got positive GOE nonetheless). in the 2013-14 season, also just two. Her toe loop technique is good - much cleaner takeoff than most - but she gets dinged on the landing left and right. If this is the case with 2A, I don't know how realistically we can expect her to pull off a consistent 3F+3T? It may not be that she's fixated on 3F+Lo. We did see a glimpse of her practicing 3F+3T this time last year. Maybe 3F+3T just doesn't work for her.

I feel like Mao is insisting on things that are not crucial in getting points, e.g. wrong edge of 3lz (everybody has wrong edge in either 3lz or 3f, it's really not a big crime to have wrong edge in 3lz.), and ignoring things that are crucial in getting points, i.e. 3-3s. IMO, she is better off spending her time to train 3-3s than to spend her time on trying to fix her 3lz edge. Fixing 3lz edge impacted the consistency of her 3F and resulted in pops.

I think it's time well spent. She has a very nice lutz now and it will get her points as well as the right to stand among the rare few ladies in history who had all six triples.

 

[yhmafan]

I guess that's why a copy Mao's Sochi LP with almost 3 million views on youtube was deleted by the IOC to give the "appearance" that the performance was forgotten when it was actually one of the most viewed performances in Olympic history even without IOC backing and a poor quality copy at that and this was after another copy with over 1 million views was removed. Some casual fans I know that watched Mao's Sochi LP 2014 and her Worlds 2016 LP thought she gave the best performance and the number of views on youtube indicate this. There are very many people that do not take the scores for performances at face value and decide for themselves what they like best because the scoring is often suspect, subjective or based on double standards in tech calls and GOE or on big fluctuations and inversions in PCS scores.

True

It will be hard if not impossible to overcome that kind of un-favoritism.

I always could imagine it will be really hard for her and at the same time that’s why I admire her determination even more.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Mao loses points because she URs jumps. She plans 3F+3lo, but the 3lo often doesn't happen, or if she does try it, the 3lo gets UR or DG. Sometimes even the 2lo in her combos gets UR. Her 3A can be an asset, but it can also be a big minus if she URs it then falls. Mao sometimes inexplicably doubles jumps that clearly were meant to be triples.

Her Worlds 2016 FS shows the UR problem:

3a<, 3f+3lo<, 2ze, 2a+3t<, 3s, 3f+2lo+2lo, 3lo

Three URs and a doubled jump. Lots of points lost.

Most of the time the 3Lo< calls are incorrect...

 

[miki88]

To the loyal fans of an athlete or loyal skating fans, it doesn't matter whether he/she medals. But to casual fans, the only performances that will get their attention are medal winning performances. A bad performance that wins medals is still psychologically perceived as better than a better performance that don't win medals. That's just what most casual viewers or non-loyal fans think.

Hmm... I think her Sochi FS is far better remembered than her Vancouver one where she did medal. It was featured in quite a few top moments from Sochi afterwards. She was also the most tweeted athlete in Sochi, ahead of her teammate Hanyu who won his event. I don't believe all of those people are her loyal fans or skating fans. I don't think she has the most number of fans on social media either.

As for casual viewers, are there any left? I recall none of my friends having much interest in watching skating events during the Olympics. NBC coverage does not help but I would be pleasantly surprised if general public in the US remembers any skating performance from the Olympics.