2016-17 State of Russian Men's skating

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

TBH I don't think Maxim ever had much quality in his skating, I didn't follow him as a junior but his senior GP golds he won due to landing three quads in the LP at the time when it was still a novelty + other skaters bombed. But 3 quads in the long is yesterday's news and he is not even going for three anymore. His spins, positions, extensions are not good and not seem to be improving. But what kills me most is his total lack of any joy of skating, enthusiasm & commitment.
I don't know how long he will continue to be propped by RusFed but I guess even all mighty pull of TSKA might not be enough if he does not show any improvement next season. His chances for the team event I'd already consider as nil. Losing his team the gold at WTT might have been the last straw...

It seems people are dismissive of when he does well -- like trivializing his Euros score this year, or his 2 Grand Prix golds -- but are eager to point to where he failed - like Worlds 2013 where no Russian man (other than Plu had he been able to go) would have gotten 2 spots, and World Team Trophy (which is just a fun event that doesn't have clout and doesn't even feature the top skaters in each discipline). I know I'm defending a brat/bad boy/whatever you want to call it, but it's pretty evident that some just love to hate him, and even if he made improvements to his skating, said folks wouldn't acknowledge it because they're predisposed to just finding anything wrong with him (not to mention, they're the ones busting out the party horns whenever he messes up, because it makes them feel better about themselves). I get that he's hard to support, but the haterade from some of the bashers makes me actually root for him, just to make em rip just a tad more of their hair out in frustration.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's very common for training a quad to mess with one's timing on a triple, though. What is there to understand?

Kovtun made it to Worlds. Mura hasn't made it for two years. Han Yan didn't make it out of the SP last season. Daniel Samohin crashed & burned in all but two competitions this season. Denis Ten finished in 16th place at Worlds. Adam Rippon's GPF score would have left him 17th. Jason Brown's NHK Trophy score would have left him 19th. Boyang Jin's SA score would have left him 12th. Men's skating right now is bring it or go home. Samarin is consistent, and Aliev gets the second mark. A fall on a quad lutz is worth plenty of points. I have to hand it to Maxim that he's making the effort to stay relevant. I haven't any faith in his jump technique or the likelihood that he will rotate. But props for guts nonetheless.

Fully agree. Although I think Samarin and Aliev were just not ready for the senior scene debut to be at World Team Trophy. You don't really want your first major competition senior debut to be World Team Trophy, which isn't even taken seriously, lol. Plus, you run the risk of very much looking a junior in a sea of seniors. It's smarter to improve over the summer and then make a statement on the Grand Prix, instead of starting at an end of season fluff fest.

 

[silverfoxes]

Fully agree. Although I think Samarin and Aliev were just not ready for the senior scene debut to be at World Team Trophy. You don't really want your first major competition senior debut to be World Team Trophy, which isn't even taken seriously, lol. Plus, you run the risk of very much looking a junior in a sea of seniors. It's smarter to improve over the summer and then make a statement on the Grand Prix, instead of starting at an end of season fluff fest.

Samarin already competed at Euros.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Samarin already competed at Euros.

Ah, right right. What happened there again?

 

[gmyers]

It seems people are dismissive of when he does well -- like trivializing his Euros score this year, or his 2 Grand Prix golds -- but are eager to point to where he failed - like Worlds 2013 where no Russian man (other than Plu had he been able to go) would have gotten 2 spots, and World Team Trophy (which is just a fun event that doesn't have clout and doesn't even feature the top skaters in each discipline). I know I'm defending a brat/bad boy/whatever you want to call it, but it's pretty evident that some just love to hate him, and even if he made improvements to his skating, said folks wouldn't acknowledge it because they're predisposed to just finding anything wrong with him (not to mention, they're the ones busting out the party horns whenever he messes up, because it makes them feel better about themselves). I get that he's hard to support, but the haterade from some of the bashers makes me actually root for him, just to make em rip just a tad more of their hair out in frustration.

The hating part is over! He's just a skater who doesn't get results! At euros he has been the highest ranking Russian or the lowest ranking Russian! Euros is only useful as a ranking of Russian men at that time! Two times now he has been the highest ranking Russian man at euros only to lose at worlds to Kolyada! He has no way to handle worlds. He can't mentally Handle being at a worlds! Only in 2014 could be mentally handle worlds. He's as scattershot as Sandhu or Abbott without having any of their strengths!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The hating part is over! He's just a skater who doesn't get results! At euros he has been the highest ranking Russian or the lowest ranking Russian! Euros is only useful as a ranking of Russian men at that time! Two times now he has been the highest ranking Russian man at euros only to lose at worlds to Kolyada! He has no way to handle worlds. He can't mentally Handle being at a worlds! Only in 2014 could be mentally handle worlds. He's as scattershot as Sandhu or Abbott without having any of their strengths!

I don't think it's fair to say he doesn't get results. He got personal bests in both the SP and FS this season. He won 5 GP medals (2 golds and 3 silvers) in 8 attempts - far better than any other Russian. And he's medalled the last 3 years at Euros (far better than any other Russian, since Plushenko). And he's won 3 out of the past 4 national titles (obviously, far better than any other Russian -- and he's the only Russian in 15 years to beat Plushenko). In 3 full senior seasons, he has been on the podium 15 out of 25 times (60%). Hardly "not getting results". If you want to point out this season, fair - he's been a bust. But it's not like any other Russian had a stellar season, even Kolyada.

I guarantee if it were Aliev or Kolyada or Voronov who consistently medalled at Euros the past few seasons, people would extol that and make a big deal out of it. But when Kovtun skates awesome at Euros people trivialize it as due to a weak field, or say, "Whatever, he isn't even close to challenging Javier..." (when NO other Russian is! ).

ROFLMAO at "the hating part is over"... because he's getting so much love, right? Please. There isn't a 'Sure, Jan' gif that's big enough.

 

[silverfoxes]

If Max was just a talented headcase who worked hard, without the crappy attitude, people would be much more sympathetic to him. I've defended him in the past and if he showed some maturity now, I wouldn't care less about things he did as a teenager. But no...he's proven again & again that he just doesn't care. I've seen him in person and he clearly doesn't like to practice or compete. He's in this sport because his father was a coach & because he has nothing else going on (except his budding rap career ), not because he's passionate about it. Now why would that endear him to anyone? If I were Russian, I wouldn't want such an embarrassment representing my country at the Olympics. Ever.

 

[Fish in the sea]

I guarantee if it were Aliev or Kolyada or Voronov who consistently medalled at Euros the past few seasons, people would extol that and make a big deal out of it. But when Kovtun skates awesome at Euros people trivialize it as due to a weak field, or say, "Whatever, he isn't even close to challenging Javier..." (when NO other Russian is! ).

If Aliev, Kolyada or Voronov were Russia's first men and bombed as much as Kovtun does, the importance of their Euros medals would also be downplayed.

 

[gmyers]

I don't think it's fair to say he doesn't get results. He got personal bests in both the SP and FS this season. He won 5 GP medals (2 golds and 3 silvers) in 8 attempts - far better than any other Russian. And he's medalled the last 3 years at Euros (far better than any other Russian, since Plushenko). And he's won 3 out of the past 4 national titles (obviously, far better than any other Russian -- and he's the only Russian in 15 years to beat Plushenko). In 3 full senior seasons, he has been on the podium 15 out of 25 times (60%). Hardly "not getting results". If you want to point out this season, fair - he's been a bust. But it's not like any other Russian had a stellar season, even Kolyada.

I guarantee if it were Aliev or Kolyada or Voronov who consistently medalled at Euros the past few seasons, people would extol that and make a big deal out of it. But when Kovtun skates awesome at Euros people trivialize it as due to a weak field, or say, "Whatever, he isn't even close to challenging Javier..." (when NO other Russian is! ).

ROFLMAO at "the hating part is over"... because he's getting so much love, right? Please. There isn't a 'Sure, Jan' gif that's big enough.

If Aliev, Kolyada or Voronov were Russia's first men and bombed as much as Kovtun does, the importance of their Euros medals would also be downplayed.

I think Fish is right because while euro medal might be nice worlds means more. And of course Fernandez is untouchable so it's a competion for second and third and one time kovtun - as well as all the other Russian men it's true- lost to bychenko!!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think Fish is right because while euro medal might be nice worlds means more. And of course Fernandez is untouchable so it's a competion for second and third and one time kovtun - as well as all the other Russian men it's true- lost to bychenko!!

Worlds means more for sure. But I consider Kovtun's career way more illustrious than Artur Gachinsky's career (even with the Euro silver and World bronze), for example.

Firstly, I give credit Bychenko for actually skating fairly well... second, Bychenko has had a knack for defeating the Russians -- yup, at Euros 2016 he beat all Russians, at Rostelecom this past season, he shut Russia out of the medals, including Kolyada; and he and beat Samarin (who was the new Russian silver medalist) this past season.

Interestingly, in Maxim's case, he lost WC2017 and EC2016 by less than half a point (denying him a top 10 and a silver, respectively) to Bychenko.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If Aliev, Kolyada or Voronov were Russia's first men and bombed as much as Kovtun does, the importance of their Euros medals would also be downplayed.

But Kolyada is the Russian #1 (certainly after Worlds last season, and won Russian nationals this season). Yet, Kovtun had a slightly better international medal haul. Neither won a GP medal or were a threat at Worlds.

For comparison: Kovtun got 2 GP silvers in his first Grand Prix season, and 2 GP golds in his second Grand Prix season, making the GPF twice. In Kolyada's first Grand Prix season he was 5th at Rostelecom, and in his second Grand Prix season, he was 4th and 5th. In his first two seasons of Euros, Kovtun was 5th (as a Junior, mind you) and then 2nd; Kolyada was 5th (as a senior) and then 3rd. In their first full senior seasons, Kovtun was 4th at Worlds and then 7th the next year; Kolyada was 4th and then 8th the next year. So, as it stands, while Kolyada is generally outperforming Kovtun in terms of placements, Kovtun was producing much better results in his first two full senior seasons than Kolyada has.

Don't get me wrong, I like Kolyada more, but people be acting like Kovtun's been crap, while Kolyada hasn't exactly lit it up in his first few seasons as a senior, certainly not the way Kovtun did.

 

[vorravorra]

It's very common for training a quad to mess with one's timing on a triple, though. What is there to understand?

Well, if his lutz is so easily messed up... why would a skater who was doing three salchows (at a risk of zayaking) and only one lutz in the LP be considered a good candidate to learn the quad lutz anyway? He's already cut his five quads in two programs to four and he has trouble landing those with any degree of consistency. Do they think that he will land quad lutzes with a higher frequency than quad toes/salchows? I've heard it was TAT's idea and I hope not, because she's had enough bright ideas concerning Kovtun already.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Well, if his lutz is so easily messed up... why would a skater who was doing three salchows (at a risk of zayaking) and only one lutz in the LP be considered a good candidate to learn the quad lutz anyway? He's already cut his five quads in two programs to four and he has trouble landing those with any degree of consistency. Do they think that he will land quad lutzes with a higher frequency than quad toes/salchows? I've heard it was TAT's idea and I hope not, because she's had enough bright ideas concerning Kovtun already.

Well, she was the one wanting Kolyada to put the quad lutz on the SP out of nowhere after he messed up the program last year. Maybe she thinks everyone can pull out quads like Evgenia does triples...

 

[vorravorra]

Well, she was the one wanting Kolyada to put the quad lutz on the SP out of nowhere after he messed up the program last year. Maybe she thinks everyone can pull out quads like Evgenia does triples...

I've just read an interview with TAT where she is being sarcastic about Kovtun learning quad lutz when he can't even produce a triple (re: WTT). So presumably it is not her initiative. Although you can never tell with TAT.

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170422/1119456708.html

 

[vorravorra]

TAT just doesn't stop Now apparently Kolyada hasn't landed the quad lutz because he doesn't work on it enough. Will all due respect, Kolyada worked on 4Lz hard enough to overstrain his back, which led to his withdrawal from the Russian Cup Final and inability to jump any quads for some time. He stopped doing the Biellmann to ease the load on his back. I'd much rather he takes his time and does not cripple himself.

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170422/1119461567.html

 

[Tutto]

TAT just doesn't stop Now apparently Kolyada hasn't landed the quad lutz because he doesn't work on it enough. Will all due respect, Kolyada worked on 4Lz hard enough to overstrain his back, which led to his withdrawal from the Russian Cup Final and inability to jump any quads for some time. He stopped doing the Biellmann to ease the load on his back. I'd much rather he takes his time and does not cripple himself.

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170422/1119461567.html

Oh for God's sake will this woman ever shut up! Since when she became a technical specialist? And her logic is 'great' - first she says Mika can't land the lutz because of a flaw in technique and straight after directs him to repeat it more and more?

 

[Tutto]

I wouldn't say his chances of making the team event are nil. They are not good, that's for sure, but it's not like Russia has that many guys to send - although he's not doing himself any favors with those low scores, that's for sure.

Low scores are one thing but consistency & reliability are even more important for the team event. Remember, Adelina though being a Russian Champ and darling of TSKA was not in the team event in Sochi. Yulia was. Why? She was more consistent and showed a better competitive spirit than Adelina. That's why I think the WTT was a last straw for RusFed where Kovtun is concerned (and I am afraid Anna too - unfair as it is) they are just too unpredictable (well Kovtun is predictable really he bombs in most events apart from Russian Nats)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think a lot depends on how Kolyada and Kovtun skate the Grand Prix. If every result is like Euros and Kovtun regains his national title, he could get the team event, but Kolyada has better scoring potential.

People are giving waaaayyy to much relevance to WTT. It's a fun competition that has no bearing on what will happen at the Olympics - unless people believe Japan can actually beat Russia in the team event.

 

[Tutto]

I think a lot depends on how Kolyada and Kovtun skate the Grand Prix. If every result is like Euros and Kovtun regains his national title, he could get the team event, but Kolyada has better scoring potential.

People are giving waaaayyy to much relevance to WTT. It's a fun competition that has no bearing on what will happen at the Olympics - unless people believe Japan can actually beat Russia in the team event.

Well, the rules are different at the Olympics and yes Japan wont' be able to win or even medal due to their pairs and ice dance. In its spirit however WTT was the last 'rehearsal' of the team event at the Olympics and I think the RusFed took it very seriously.
WTT was of course less important than Worlds but with all the top men except Javi present there it was hardly unimportant either.
I am not sure why you think Kovtun some sort of a victim. When he is doing well he gets his credit e.g after his silver at Euros this year the general sentiment was that he'd turned the corner, his work with a psychologist started paying off etc etc which pretty much lasted till his next showing. I do feel sorry for him, I re-watched his LP in Saitama and though it was not a perfect skate (Gosh he did pop jumps even back then) he looked so much different - more assured, there was a fight & drive in him, even his posture was better. RusFed really knows how to 'break' athletes...

 

[vorravorra]

An interesting interview with Eteri where she explains why she finds boys harder to work with than girls. According to her boys need emotional support and go far as demonstratively falling hard from single and double jumps to get it. And she is just not good at any of that stuff. To girls you can give a task and they just do it and that's it.
http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170428/1119723063.html