2016 Europeans Men Free Skate

[Sydney Rose]

Javier's program is wonderful. Guys and Dolls is not exactly a favorite of mine but I can appreciate what he's doing, which is essentially a musical theatre number on ice. Over the top? Of course. It has to be for that type of program.

He makes it look easy but it's not. Look how much trouble Mack the Knife gave Chan.

And his skating skills are just fine.

 

[gmyers]

Considering Kovtun's disastrous LP here, the prospect on Russian men's spots for 2017 Worlds does not look good at all.

They are going to have one spot and nothing can be done about it.

 

[fujiapplepear]

For the past few years, all the men were pursuing 300 and we FS fans waited and waited, and finally Hanyu presented us with his NHK and GPF and to me they worth every single point.
And since then I was waiting for the next great performance that can break that 300 barrier - when I saw the result and protocol I was expecting something that we never seen from Javi, something that is better than his GPF performance, something that is better than Patrick's 2013 TEB performance, and then I got to watch the video... No that was not any better than Javi's 2015 GPF or Patrick's 2013 TEB. For me, this is not a performance that worth to be the 3rd performance breaking the 300 barrier.
Anyway, congratulations to Javi for his 4th EC title. Great achievement.

 

[Procrastinator]

I'm honestly stunned that someone can look at Javi's routines and a) consider them easy/cheesy b) think that they merit 7s and 8s relative to the horrendous programs that we see from literally every other man except Yuzuru and sometimes Shoma and Chan.

The FS is Guys and Dolls, essentially a musical theatre piece. It's supposed to be "overdone," as that is what the genre is like. The characterization and interpretation are perfect. I'm not sure where the comparison to Hanyu's Ballade, which lacks the choreographic nuance of either of Javi's programs (especially after re-working it to insert the second quad), is coming from.

You all bemoan his TES score, and yet you ignore the positive GOEs and bullets he fulfilled for most of the elements. You bemoan his "cooked" PCS and ignore how far ahead he is of every competitor at this championship in terms of every component besides skating skills.

I agree with the person who insightfully commented that people are afraid "he's going to beat someone." Javier will easily become the next Sotnikova if he (or anyone) ever beats a clean Hanyu, just as Gracie is being set up in other threads to be criticized for "home inflation" if Med or Mao don't win at Worlds.

 

[Sweet Dream]

They are going to have one spot and nothing can be done about it.

Maybe Kolyada can work a wonder there? Right now Russia has no other better mens' skaters to be sent to Worlds. :sad21:

 

[Interspectator]

I'm honestly stunned that someone can look at Javi's routines and a) consider them easy/cheesy b) think that they merit 7s and 8s relative to the horrendous programs that we see from literally every other man except Yuzuru and sometimes Shoma and Chan.

The FS is Guys and Dolls, essentially a musical theatre piece. It's supposed to be "overdone," as that is what the genre is like. The characterization and interpretation are perfect. I'm not sure where the comparison to Hanyu's Ballade, which lacks the choreographic nuance of either of Javi's programs (especially after re-working it to insert the second quad), is coming from.

You all bemoan his TES score, and yet you ignore the positive GOEs and bullets he fulfilled for most of the elements. You bemoan his "cooked" PCS and ignore how far ahead he is of every competitor at this championship in terms of every component besides skating skills.

I agree with the person who insightfully commented that people are afraid "he's going to beat someone." Javier will easily become the next Sotnikova if he (or anyone) ever beats a clean Hanyu, just as Gracie is being set up in other threads to be criticized for "home inflation" if Med or Mao don't win at Worlds.

Fernandez has ALREADY beaten 'someone' at worlds and people didn't turn on him. I don't think it will happen if he does it again. I'm looking forward to Worlds --best men's event ever...I'm hoping.

 

[Dlqp95]

Why do we need to pretend something? Right now, I don't see any of those three surpassing a clean Javier. Not just because he has a third quad, but because he is at least trying to capitalize on what he can do best, and not trying to impersonate a character he can't do yet, trash talking his peers or just skating a clean program per season. If he is where he is it's because he's being rewarded for the work he's done, and not because others aren't being rewarded in comparison.

And not that I'm putting Javi and Yuzu at the same level, but right now Yuzuru can fall on two elements in his FS and score over 200. A year ago I doubt anyone was even expecting that. I just don't see how the judges would be overscoring him that much if the entire field wasn't suffering from the same - just evidenced by a lot of the scores at just this one competition.

I think we have to stop pretending this is just about Javi, because so far I can only hear about other skater X is not getting the scores Javi is getting, or Javi doesn't deserve 8s because his programs are cheesy while skater X is the real artist, or Javi's PCS are too high because his choreography is too easy compared to this one and that one and the third one. You might think the system is failing the skaters, but the judges are not marking placements anymore, they are scoring each skater separately. I don't think the best skater in a field doesn't deserve a 10 in PCS when none of the others can do what he can at the level of skating he is presenting.

I'm not saying every score Javi received here was deserved, but let's stop with this trend of taking points off his scores by chunks just because you don't like the way he's putting his programs out there.

I totally agree with you and, in general, I think everyone should read this. Javi today wasn't what we expected but hey! He is not the only one overscored today, hell, he is not the only one overscored this last seasons. We have to admit that maybe the judges don't only see this (as they should) but see the competitor as a whole. Javi has programs that attract people, that are fun and even make everyone interact in a tacit way. For me, this is enough to achieve a great IN just as much as a beautifully artistic FP or even SP. If you don't like it because is "cheesy", well, thats too bad. Javi as a whole is a great skater (he has proved it), a great performer and a great person who can interact with the audience freely and sometimes that, I believe, is what the judge hopes to see.

 

[Procrastinator]

For the past few years, all the men were pursuing 300 and we FS fans waited and waited, and finally Hanyu presented us with his NHK and GPF and to me they worth every single point.
And since then I was waiting for the next great performance that can break that 300 barrier - when I saw the result and protocol I was expecting something that we never seen from Javi, something that is better than his GPF performance, something that is better than Patrick's 2013 TEB performance, and then I got to watch the video... No that was not any better than Javi's 2015 GPF or Patrick's 2013 TEB. For me, this is not a performance that worth to be the 3rd performance breaking the 300 barrier.
Anyway, congratulations to Javi for his 4th EC title. Great achievement.

This is one of the quintessential problems with figure skating fans. The numbers don't mean anything in a vacuum. They are only meant to assess that skater in that segment at that specific competition. The ISU, to that end, takes care to explicitly mention that they DON'T do "world record" scores, but only record the progression of "high scores." They have to be aware that scores across comps are variable and not comparable. Your disappointment stems from not recognizing that fact and attributing an artificial significance to "barriers" like 300+ total score as well as not realizing that, in this sport, falls and stumbles are not heavily penalized and remove no more than 2-5 points from someone's score. That is why Hanyu can fall twice and still win Olympic gold but loses the world title by popping a quad salchow.

To illustrate my point about how scores are not necessarily comparable, look at the difference between how Yuna Kim was scored at 2013 Worlds in the SP AND the FS. Both performances were of extremely similar quality, but take a look at the protocol for her PCS and you'll see what I mean.

Similarly, PCS trends have changed and judges are no longer reluctant to award 9.0+. You can't demand that Javi get a 7 in interpretation when Yuzuru is now being awarded tens just for skating cleanly.

In short, scores don't exist in a vacuum and aren't comparable across competitions. Believing otherwise leads to weird rants about overinflation and "homecooking" and conspiracies, etc.

 

[jeff goldblum]

I'm honestly stunned that someone can look at Javi's routines and a) consider them easy/cheesy b) think that they merit 7s and 8s relative to the horrendous programs that we see from literally every other man except Yuzuru and sometimes Shoma and Chan.

The FS is Guys and Dolls, essentially a musical theatre piece. It's supposed to be "overdone," as that is what the genre is like. The characterization and interpretation are perfect. I'm not sure where the comparison to Hanyu's Ballade, which lacks the choreographic nuance of either of Javi's programs (especially after re-working it to insert the second quad), is coming from.

You all bemoan his TES score, and yet you ignore the positive GOEs and bullets he fulfilled for most of the elements. You bemoan his "cooked" PCS and ignore how far ahead he is of every competitor at this championship in terms of every component besides skating skills.

I agree with the person who insightfully commented that people are afraid "he's going to beat someone." Javier will easily become the next Sotnikova if he (or anyone) ever beats a clean Hanyu, just as Gracie is being set up in other threads to be criticized for "home inflation" if Med or Mao don't win at Worlds.

Whoa, I know this is a thread about Europeans, and most are discussing the scoring of Fernandez's LP, but I will seriously go all out like that Russian sports site someone posted did and break down exactly how nuanced the choreography in Hanyu's SP is; it is nothing short of a masterpiece, right up with Michelle Kwan's Rachmaninov circa 1998. They're just different types of programs, okay?

I will add that I would be thrilled if Fernandez beat Hanyu because I do think he is one of the few capable of it.

 

[Procrastinator]

Whoa, I know this is a thread about Europeans, and most are discussing the scoring of Fernandez's LP, but I will seriously go all out like that Russian sports site someone posted did and break down exactly how nuanced the choreography in Hanyu's SP is; it is nothing short of a masterpiece, right up with Michelle Kwan's Rachmaninov circa 1998. They're just different types of programs, okay?

I will add that I would be thrilled if Fernandez beat Hanyu because I do think he is one of the few capable of it.

I'm not saying Hanyu's ballade isn't a masterpiece (it is, or rather was last season when the jumps were more musically placed). Nevertheless, it does not have as much choreographic content, mostly because of the slowness of the music and the choreography matching that.

 

[fujiapplepear]

The ISU, to that end, takes care to explicitly mention that they DON'T do "world record" scores, but only record the progression of "high scores." They have to be aware that scores across comps are variable and not comparable.

Thank you for clarification. This is something new to me. I have to admit, it disappointed me even more because now I think something wrong with the scoring system if you can't align marks to performances.

To illustrate my point about how scores are not necessarily comparable, look at the difference between how Yuna Kim was scored at 2013 Worlds in the SP AND the FS. Both performances were of extremely similar quality, but take a look at the protocol for her PCS and you'll see what I mean.

Please do not bring Yuna to this topic. I am a super Yuna fan I have her poster on my wall for years since I was young in college. Please don't involve her or her fans into something unrelated to this Men Free Skate topic.

Similarly, PCS trends have changed and judges are no longer reluctant to award 9.0+. You can't demand that Javi get a 7 in interpretation when Yuzuru is now being awarded tens just for skating cleanly.

Javi did not only receive 9s; he got 10s (not one) for this performance, do you think it worth? In addition to PCS, I do not agree with the BV and GOE he received for that 3A - it was clearly under rotated.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I just got back from work and checked the results. Is it true? Is really true?

Alexei got silver?!

Yes he did! I'm happy! Israel's first Euros medal in a singles event!!!

 

[Procrastinator]

Thank you for clarification. This is something new to me. I have to admit, it disappointed me even more because now I think something wrong with the scoring system if you can't align marks to performances.



Please do not bring Yuna to this topic. I am a super Yuna fan I have her poster on my wall for years since I was young in college. Please don't involve her or her fans into something unrelated to this Men Free Skate topic.



Javi did not only receive 9s; he got 10s (not one) for this performance, do you think it worth? In addition to PCS, I do not agree with the BV and GOE he received for that 3A - it was clearly under rotated.

The 10s for P/E were too high (I think he only got one in this category), yes, but the 10s for interpretation and certainly for choreography are defensible.

I brought Yuna up because she's competed for so long and the strange variations in her marks throughout the years (from 7.75 to 10.0) show exactly what I'm talking about, that scores across competitions can't be compared. That's why I get so frustrated seeing so many people angry at Sotnikova getting close to 150 or Medvedeva exceeding 150 at Russian Nationals; the number only means something at THAT competition.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I wish we can take our bickering aside and just be happy on the event. The event as a whole was great. I really don't whine about it because it's not worth it. This happens at every competition we see. Every competition. I've seen this. Sometimes I wish people can just be happy on the competition. It stinks for me to see everyone being negative. I like to be positive. That's how I got through. By thinking positive and improving. I couldn't mope around feeling sorry for myself that I'm different from others neurologically. I had to persevere in early intervention therapies and self-motivation. Enough rambling of this. I feel like there has to be one time where we don't bicker about the scoring system and just be happy for the skaters. I'm very happy for how the skaters placed.

I hope I don't get backlash from saying this.

 

[Procrastinator]

I wish we can take our bickering aside and just be happy on the event. The event as a whole was great. I really don't whine about it because it's not worth it. This happens at every competition we see. Every competition. I've seen this. Sometimes I wish people can just be happy on the competition. It stinks for me to see everyone being negative. I like to be positive. That's how I got through. By thinking positive and improving. I couldn't mope around feeling sorry for myself that I'm different from others neurologically. I had to persevere in early intervention therapies and self-motivation. Enough rambling of this. I feel like there has to be one time where we don't bicker about the scoring system and just be happy for the skaters. I'm very happy for how the skaters placed.

I hope I don't get backlash from saying this.

I feel similarly but I'm only being "negative" because I feel like most of the complaining about competitions comes from the misconception that scores are comparable across competitions and that numbers like 200, 300, etc. inherently "mean" something.

 

[Dlqp95]

I wish we can take our bickering aside and just be happy on the event. The event as a whole was great. I really don't whine about it because it's not worth it. This happens at every competition we see. Every competition. I've seen this. Sometimes I wish people can just be happy on the competition. It stinks for me to see everyone being negative. I like to be positive. That's how I got through. By thinking positive and improving. I couldn't mope around feeling sorry for myself that I'm different from others neurologically. I had to persevere in early intervention therapies and self-motivation. Enough rambling of this. I feel like there has to be one time where we don't bicker about the scoring system and just be happy for the skaters. I'm very happy for how the skaters placed.

I hope I don't get backlash from saying this.

HEYYY!!! You're telling the truth, we all should be happy, I should be the happiest, it was my first live competition, I was soooo excited!!! Because in my country is currently summer I was like screaming with a tub of ice-cream hating everyone in Slovakia because is so hot here. I think that good or bad is all over and we enjoyed it with every kind of performance. :giveup:

 

[edwinaskater1943]

Nicely done from TAT's grandson!

??? did he make worlds ?

 

[cheerknithanson]

I feel similarly but I'm only being "negative" because I feel like most of the complaining about competitions comes from the misconception that scores are comparable across competitions and that numbers like 200, 300, etc. inherently "mean" something.

Every competition is different. Some skaters skate better at some competitions throughout the season. We will see how it'll compare when Worlds happen and it'll be Hanyu vs. Chan vs. Fernandez vs. Ten.

They do mean something in terms of the combination of the base values, PCS, GOE, and deductions for both the SP and FP. Math math math math math. This is the one math I ENJOY.

Like I said, I have more important things to complain about. And it's not about skating. For me, it's about American Idol, but that's another conversation.

 

[carmen7077]

If hanyu did not present us 322 and 330, fernandez would never had the third best pcs in history with his crappy gpf short, and would never add a second quad into his short, a second 3a into his free, and would never score over 200 with so many 10s and a 94pcs with today's performance.

Judges ditch the old scoring system because there is an upper limit of 330 and under that they can reward fernandez with whatever score they want. Such a shame for the sport.

 

[begin]

Florent's skate was one for the ages. Going to miss him, hope he has a happy retirement!