2016 Glacier Falls Summer Classic | Page 11 | Golden Skate

2016 Glacier Falls Summer Classic

Tavi...

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Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Actually, Sean did medal. We follow the US standard, he received the pewter. (For the record he was 3rd in SP, 3 in FS, but 4th overall. One of the mysteries of IJS. :-( )

Sean has really improved his skating in the past couple of years, and his big personality and enjoyment in performing just leap off the ice! He's really fun to watch - congratulations and best wishes for his continued success!
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Regarding the criticism of Jason's programs and relative lack of difficulty... I agree.

The debate has been going on for a couple of years now. I think he's an exceptionally artistic skater, a real crowd pleaser. And that's great. I like watching him skate, too. But there are other wonderful artistic skaters who deliver the technical. The men have to be BOTH artists and fearless athletes.

Beautiful as they are, the programs are simply not medal-worthy at the most prestigious international competitions. The bar is being raised, and he's not responding. I've seen him land some wonderful quads in practice videos. He has got to start bringing the goods in competition if he wants any chance at all to win the big ones. He won't gain enough advantage with beautiful spins.

And enough with the Lysacek comparisons. It's simply a different world now.
 

StitchMonkey

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Wow, that's a great score for Mariah! I know it can't exactly be taken seriously because #clubcompjudging, but the fact that she won by almost 23 points says a lot. And Paige! Good for her! All of the headcases did so well :luv17:

Speaking of, does anyone know if Paige is moving up?

She also did/attempted two triple-triples and repeats the lutz and flip (rather than 3T) which gives he a pretty good starting TES, and looks impressive as well. Off hand I am not sure I can think of any ladies doing two triple triples and repeating lutz/flip.

Actually, Sean did medal. We follow the US standard, he received the pewter. (For the record he was 3rd in SP, 3 in FS, but 4th overall. One of the mysteries of IJS. :-( )

Totally forgot club comps did the pewter thing. I am thinking for Sean it was a happy pewter.


EDIT

Channel with free skates from Brendan, Grant, Vincent... and Jason, because everyone uploads Jason.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFxEiIJwGuKkR7x9FXT_qLw
 
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TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Regarding the criticism of Jason's programs and relative lack of difficulty... I agree.

The debate has been going on for a couple of years now. I think he's an exceptionally artistic skater, a real crowd pleaser. And that's great. I like watching him skate, too. But there are other wonderful artistic skaters who deliver the technical. The men have to be BOTH artists and fearless athletes.

Beautiful as they are, the programs are simply not medal-worthy at the most prestigious international competitions. The bar is being raised, and he's not responding. I've seen him land some wonderful quads in practice videos. He has got to start bringing the goods in competition if he wants any chance at all to win the big ones. He won't gain enough advantage with beautiful spins.

And enough with the Lysacek comparisons. It's simply a different world now.

It's weird how we still keep debating the same over and over again.

No, he won't medal at Worlds or Olympics without a quad (barring a collective meltdown from all other skaters)

Yes, he needs to put a reliable quad out there if he wants to have a chance. Preferably many.

We all know this. He knows this.

However, I don't think it's fair or even accurate to say or imply that he's technically deficient overall, which is what lots of people like to do (not talking about you, TontoK, your post just inspired me ;) ). It's one jump that he doesn't have, and one jump that's beautiful when it works out but not reliable (3Axel). Apart from those two, he really is technically very, very good. His spins, steps and all other jumps regularly get very high +GOE, and so they should.

As to the complaint that we always see everywhere after he scores high: "How did he get XXX with no quad? That's not right!"

Well. What should the judges do?
He doesn't do a quad, and obviously then doesn't get points for one.
There's no mention of quads in any of the PCS criteria. So they're free to score him as high as they want to in the 2nd mark, and they often do.
For all other elements, there's no bullet point for lack of quad. How would it even work?

"This spin gets +3 GOE if the following 7 bullet points are met: x, y, z, a, b, c and d, which is "Has performed a quad in the programme at some point".

Having said that, I found the GF scores to be ridiculously high, but see no point in getting my knickers in a twist over that. Had I been a judge, he would've got maybe 88 / 175 from me, but I am not and I can only blame myself for not having studied to become one.
 

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
I agree... even someone with one stellar quad like Patrick has little chance of winning when some have 2 or 3 quads nowadays.... I liked Jason's performance today but he even repeats the 2A twice... his 3A has improved a lot though... but yeah.... some do 3 or 4 quads.... then you have the people like Patrick with 2 quads.... then you have skaters who do 1 quad..... it's getting tough... Lysacek was lucky... weird competition there.... I don't think Brown can even podium at this point.

Another topic... I watched his program... and this is a question, not a statement : is it slow? I felt he did a lot of gorgeous positions but at the same time, it seemed stuck... like his ice coverage gets there but very slowly.... maybe it's the shooting... i wasn't in the arena but yeah... i felt he was staying in place a bit too much... Finaly, wow at the spins... those were very gorgeous...

Well, someone who was there did comment favorably on his speed in the SP:

https://twitter.com/merrycoachsedge/status/759204807949377536

As to Jason winning without a quad, I doubt that's their intention. They know what they're up against and that a World or Olympic medal is virtually impossible today without one or more quads. I just think their strategy may have changed a bit. At first I was a little surprised and disappointed that he didn't attempt a quad in either program here, but in retrospect, it makes sense.

For several years, the popular criticism about Jason - from Phil Hersh and Rafael Arutyunyan and Christine Brennan on down to posters on this board - was that not only did he lack a quad, he didn't have a reliable triple axel. I think his team has realized that with Adam's improved 3As, the rise of Nathan, Max's improvements, and the fact we only have two spots for Worlds in 2017, unless they addressed his issues with the 3A, it wasn't a given he would make the next World Team - forget about reaching the podium there.

Last year, I think they miscalculated by asking him to master two difficult new programs and incorporate the quad at the same time. It was too much for him, and it really showed up the issue with his 3A. So this year? Work more methodically. Get the programs under your belt. Solidify the 3A. And then, only after you're confident in those things, incorporate a quad / quads / a quad combo. In this competition, he showed (1) comfort with his programs; and (2) three fully-rotated and cleanly-landed 3As. His long-time nemesis - the second 3A in the FS - is in the bonus (I think, just barely). If he can repeat beautiful skates like this - with three solid 3As - at his Sr B and GP events - I think he stands at least some chance of reaching the GPF. More importantly, I think we'll start to see him add in a quad after that.
 
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Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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I think the real question is can Jason win a World Medal without a quad? :devil:
 

semosk8tfan

Medalist
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Please also remember that Jason is coming off a back injury that totally derailed his 2015-2016 season. I have read that he is going to be training smarter to avoid injury. I think they are keeping their eye on the prize (making the 2018 Olympic team) and will take it slow and steady this season in regards to the addition of quads to his programs.
 

artsciboy

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2004

I'm not normally a Caroline Zhang fan, but that was pretty impressive given her injuries.

3flip, 2lutz, 3toe, 3loop-.5-3loop (meant to be a 3loop-3loop clearly), 3flip-1toe-1loop, 2axel, 2axel.

Did she get that 3flip jump combo invalidated since the 3loop combo ended up being an unplanned three-jump series as well? If so, she would have finished second here. I wouldn't be disappointed if she got a TBA spot.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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It's weird how we still keep debating the same over and over again.

No, he won't medal at Worlds or Olympics without a quad (barring a collective meltdown from all other skaters)

Yes, he needs to put a reliable quad out there if he wants to have a chance. Preferably many.

We all know this. He knows this.

However, I don't think it's fair or even accurate to say or imply that he's technically deficient overall, which is what lots of people like to do (not talking about you, TontoK, your post just inspired me ;) ). It's one jump that he doesn't have, and one jump that's beautiful when it works out but not reliable (3Axel). Apart from those two, he really is technically very, very good. His spins, steps and all other jumps regularly get very high +GOE, and so they should.

As to the complaint that we always see everywhere after he scores high: "How did he get XXX with no quad? That's not right!"

Well. What should the judges do?
He doesn't do a quad, and obviously then doesn't get points for one.
There's no mention of quads in any of the PCS criteria. So they're free to score him as high as they want to in the 2nd mark, and they often do.
For all other elements, there's no bullet point for lack of quad. How would it even work?

"This spin gets +3 GOE if the following 7 bullet points are met: x, y, z, a, b, c and d, which is "Has performed a quad in the programme at some point".

Having said that, I found the GF scores to be ridiculously high, but see no point in getting my knickers in a twist over that. Had I been a judge, he would've got maybe 88 / 175 from me, but I am not and I can only blame myself for not having studied to become one.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I want to point out that the bar has been raised so high that even one quad is probably not going to be competitive with the top skaters. We're going to see skaters performing 2 quads in the short and three in the long. Say they get 10 points per pass, which is conservative since at least two will be in combination, that's a 50 point deficit over the course of an event. Of course, he'll make up ground with his content on corresponding passes... but good spins won't make it all up. Not even close.

I want to confirm that I like Jason... he's not my absolute favorite, but I like him a lot... and I really want to see him medal.
 

TontoK

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Please also remember that Jason is coming off a back injury that totally derailed his 2015-2016 season. I have read that he is going to be training smarter to avoid injury. I think they are keeping their eye on the prize (making the 2018 Olympic team) and will take it slow and steady this season in regards to the addition of quads to his programs.

And I concede that this is a valid point.
 

TMC

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I want to point out that the bar has been raised so high that even one quad is probably not going to be competitive with the top skaters. We're going to see skaters performing 2 quads in the short and three in the long. Say they get 10 points per pass, which is conservative since at least two will be in combination, that's a 50 point deficit over the course of an event. Of course, he'll make up ground with his content on corresponding passes... but good spins won't make it all up. Not even close.

I want to confirm that I like Jason... he's not my absolute favorite, but I like him a lot... and I really want to see him medal.

True, and I did say "chance" and "preferably many (quads)".

I personally don't care if he medals or not. I want him to place just high enough to a) make World & Olympic teams and b) secure three spots for the US team. I admit it, I'm selfish and just want to see him skate at competitions as often as possible :)
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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True, and I did say "chance" and "preferably many (quads)".

I personally don't care if he medals or not. I want him to place just high enough to a) make World & Olympic teams and b) secure three spots for the US team. I admit it, I'm selfish and just want to see him skate at competitions as often as possible :)

:agree::agree::agree:

I suppose it comes from have ubered Toller back in the day, but medals say nothing to me about skating skills, ability to interpret and put together and put out a program, and transitions and choreo and spins, all of which Jason has in many multiples.

Can he revolve four times in the air? Beats me; I have to wait and see. Do I care? Nope.

And anyone who says "but it's a sport" and "that's just show skating", :dumb:, don't stand too close, I will slap you upside the head. Maybe even with my old lady cane. That's what was said about Toller. Didn't work then, won't work now.

Just let me watch Jason. In competitions. I'm a happy camper.:biggrin:
 
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grotesm1

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
It's possible that the second axel in Jason Brown's Free Skate was a "place holder jump" at this competition. It's not unusual for top Seniors to double or use "place holder" jumps at summer competitions, where they are more concerned with giving programs a trial run and getting feedback from judges. Brown has said in a couple of interviews that he is working on the quads but he doesn't want to put them into his programs unless he feels confident that he can land them consistently. I also noted that all but two of Jason's jumping passes were in the 2nd half of his Free Skate, so he'll make up some points with bonuses. I don't know if the increased penalties on falls (2 point deduction for the 3rd and for the 4th fall) is a factor in causing him to be more cautious about adding the quads also.
 

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon
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:agree::agree::agree:

I suppose it comes from have ubered Toller back in the day, but medals say nothing to me about skating skills, ability to interpret and put together and put out a program, and transitions and choreo and spins, all of which Jason has in many multiples.

Can he revolve four times in the air? Beats me; I have to wait and see. Do I care? Nope.

And anyone who says "but it's a sport" and "that's just show skating", :dumb:, don't stand too close, I will slap you upside the head. Maybe even with my old lady cane. That's what was said about Toller. Didn't work then, won't work now.

Just let me watch Jason. In competitions. I'm a happy camper.:biggrin:

Thank you for this! You've said everything I wanted to say only better ... I am overjoyed to be watching him skate again after the long hiatus... really looking forward to his competitive season, quads or no-quads, with or without medals..
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Im glad this year's Glacier Falls thread is featuring threats by old lady cane !! :bow: :points: :points:
 

matscol

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I'm being greedy, I know, but does anyone have or have links to results sheets from yesterday's novice & intermediate FS groups and/or today's Novice & Intermediate final rounds?

...Never mind, I found them on the glacier HP (scroll down).
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I don't doubt if usfs works really hard brown can get this and higher at worlds with the same content
 
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