2016 US Nationals Senior Ice Dance FD

[NAOTMAA]

Big kudos to Peter Tchernyshev - for bringing Shibutanis some piece of magic this season by creating this FD and for helping us realize that they are THIS good, like US Champions good (at least for now).

Peter Tchernyshev has turned out to be a magnificent choreographer. His programs for K/S in pairs the last few years are absolutely sublime and its fantastic that its spreading to ice dance as well :luv17:

He might become the go to for choreography in a few years, or at least he should.

 

[rollerblade]

Peter Tchernyshev has turned out to be a magnificent choreographer. His programs for K/S in pairs the last few years are absolutely sublime and its fantastic that its spreading to ice dance as well :luv17:

He might become the go to for choreography in a few years, or at least he should.

And stick to pairs/dance. His choreo for singles have been kinda meh.

 

[Astrid56]

...or not changing their FD

I think C/B made the mistake of sticking to a music that few can relate to. The Shibs used a piece that this generation can easily relate to _ the melody ... the theme ... the lyrics. How many times was this Coldplay piece used in dance? NUMEROUS TIMES! How many times was C/B's piece used in ice-dancing? I would say just once by the Lithuanian team and, I think, they discontinued using it. It's a very difficult piece to choreograph and dance to _ so complex and sophisticated. However, I think, C/B will one day win with it having experienced this upset. They have a tough season _ changing so many times their programs and still doing great with them - no other pair had done that successfully. They have to technically change the parts that got them lower levels - the step sequence ... their spins (I think they prematurely ended the 3rd spin). They have at least two months to work it ... and knowing their fighting spirit and talents - you can't easily dismiss them as competitors. We sure will have an exciting 4CC and World Championships! Can't wait!

 

[Astrid56]

Congratulations so the Shibs on their first title. It has been a long time coming. It's disappointing that Madison and Evan find themselves facing so much negativity they have represented the US very well on the international stage. Hopefully this loss of the title will bring out the fire that they need to make them a well-rounded team.

Evan was quoted as saying the upset will 'fuel them' ... and that's the fighting spirit of a champion. Remember, they lost it technically but 'presentation-wise', they have not even though, point-wise, the PCS advantage was somewhat insignificant. Their programs this season show their versatility and talents to perform complex and sophisticated routines which will serve them well in the world stage. This is NOT the end ... this is just the beginning - a wake-up call. The best is yet to come.

I am a huge fan because I sense their raw talents ... feel their artistry - so organic and so potent. I didn't participate in the prediction game because I felt they will lose this one, definitely not because their programs are a failure. Anyway, I believe, their FD will stand the test of time --- when musical mindsets change and another one emerges. This Rach piece is a timeless piece ....

 

[TMC]

I think C/B made the mistake of sticking to a music that few can relate to. The Shibs used a piece that this generation can easily relate to _ the melody ... the theme ... the lyrics. How many times was this Coldplay piece used in dance? NUMEROUS TIMES! How many times was C/B's piece used in ice-dancing? I would say just once by the Lithuanian team and, I think, they discontinued using it. It's a very difficult piece to choreograph and dance to _ so complex and sophisticated. However, I think, C/B will one day win with it having experienced this upset. They have a tough season _ changing so many times their programs and still doing great with them - no other pair had done that successfully. They have to technically change the parts that got them lower levels - the step sequence ... their spins (I think they prematurely ended the 3rd spin). They have at least two months to work it ... and knowing their fighting spirit and talents - you can't easily dismiss them as competitors. We sure will have an exciting 4CC and World Championships! Can't wait!

For me the music is not the issue. I love their music. If it had been against any other Shibs programme from previous seasons, the contrast wouldn't have been so apparent (to me personally). But this year the Shibs appear so genuine, so vulnerable, so emotional, like every single movement in their dance comes form the soul. Unfortunately, compared to that, C/B's programme can seem a bit "sterile" and their performance a bit, not exactly forced, but a bit more like they're actors in a play whereas Maia & Alex are inviting us into their real lives. If C/B had a completely different style, something light and fun, it would be a different thing altogether because you couldn't compare. I'm aware that these feelings are not what the judging is based on, but for me personally that makes all the difference.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think Chock/Bates have a more physically demanding dance but the issue is that the Shibs' skating skills and ice dance basics are stronger than Madison and Evan's and they aren't really dancers. I also think the over-choreographed style is just hiding their deficiencies. If they skated a simpler program I think it'd be more obvious who the superior dancers are.

They are well-conditioned but all of their movement seems too obviously rehearsed and it doesn't come off as genuine. Like when they add the artificially added cymbal crashes (to do the same sort of arm raising choreography they do in every program...so much for the program being a big stretch), it just comes off as choreographed with little meaning.

And Rachmanimoff is pretty easy to interpret, which is why so many skaters choose it. The music, if done correctly, is very accessible and carries a performer. See many examples. Coldplay may seem accessible but it's easier to screw up because it's hard to rise above the image that it's an exhibition or hokey program. Also, the past few seasons the Shibs have chosen harder music (the mood-heavy Memoirs of a Geisha, Strauss waltz that people are finding harder to connect with where you can't hide behind over choreographed programs to hide weaknesses) than Chock/Bates figure skating hits playlist that they've chosen for the past four years, but nobody gave the Shibs any allowances for not choosing music people can connect with. I do think it's clever that you are twisting the fact that the Shibs had standing ovations for BOTH Coppelia and Coldplay worldwide whereas Chock/Bates had muted receptions (for a few seasons now) even when their SD to Il Divo is totally audience-friendly compared to Coppelia as a negative. I admire your attempt.

With all that said, I do think Chock/Bates are improving (though all that physicality going on their dance made her sloppier in the actual footwork and steps and edges and carriage towards the end) and Rachmaninoff is a challenge for them though it's far from being this sophisticated, high-brow dance that only the cultural elite can understand as you're trying to say here.

 

[Astrid56]

For me the music is not the issue. I love their music. If it had been against any other Shibs programme from previous seasons, the contrast wouldn't have been so apparent (to me personally). But this year the Shibs appear so genuine, so vulnerable, so emotional, like every single movement in their dance comes form the soul. Unfortunately, compared to that, C/B's programme can seem a bit "sterile" and their performance a bit, not exactly forced, but a bit more like they're actors in a play whereas Maia & Alex are inviting us into their real lives. If C/B had a completely different style, something light and fun, it would be a different thing altogether because you couldn't compare. I'm aware that these feelings are not what the judging is based on, but for me personally that makes all the difference.

C/B have to be actors to emote the theme/sentiment of the music. One can't compare Coldplay's music to Rachmaninoff _ apples and oranges. One does not need to study what Coldplay's music is about _ it's so transparent in the melody, mood, and its lyrics. Why do you think so many contemporary dances were choreographed to this piece? This fact alone is a testament to how easy it is to get in the mood with his piece - one does not have to see the dance, one only has to listen to know what it is as it's extremely relatable. Now, with the Rachmaninoff piece, you have to read about the composer's background _ know of his struggles to understand the piece. Why, even Tanith Belbin didn't get it (she said 'there's no inherent storyline to follow with this Rachmaninoff [there's definitely a storyline to follow - one has just pick what stage of this composer's psychological/psychic struggle to depict _ he struggled with depression and this piece was about his struggle and triumph over it eventually allowing him to compose music again]). Igor had to be really picky choosing rhythm/beat and ice-dance elements to tell a coherent/cohesive story .... W/P have a difficult piece too but theirs much easier as the theme ... mood is much more straightforward ... a bit cerebral. The Rachmaninoff piece is very complex _ psychologically - hard to depict the ups and downs that a mind goes through ....

 

[Astrid56]

I think Chock/Bates have a more physically demanding dance but the issue is that the Shibs' skating skills and ice dance basics are stronger than Madison and Evan's and they aren't really dancers. I also think the over-choreographed style is just hiding their deficiencies. If they skated a simpler program I think it'd be more obvious who the superior dancers are.

They are well-conditioned but all of their movement seems too obviously rehearsed and it doesn't come off as genuine. Like when they add the artificially added cymbal crashes (to do the same sort of arm raising choreography they do in every program...so much for the program being a big stretch), it just comes off as choreographed with little meaning.

And Rachmanimoff is pretty easy to interpret, which is why so many skaters choose it. The music, if done correctly, is very accessible and carries a performer. See many examples. Coldplay may seem accessible but it's easier to screw up because it's hard to rise above the image that it's an exhibition or hokey program. Also, the past few seasons the Shibs have chosen harder music (the mood-heavy Memoirs of a Geisha, Strauss waltz that people are finding harder to connect with where you can't hide behind over choreographed programs to hide weaknesses) than Chock/Bates figure skating hits playlist that they've chosen for the past four years, but nobody gave the Shibs any allowances for not choosing music people can connect with. I do think it's clever that you are twisting the fact that the Shibs had standing ovations for BOTH Coppelia and Coldplay worldwide whereas Chock/Bates had muted receptions (for a few seasons now) even when their SD to Il Divo is totally audience-friendly compared to Coppelia as a negative. I admire your attempt.

With all that said, I do think Chock/Bates are improving (though all that physicality going on their dance made her sloppier in the actual footwork and steps and edges and carriage towards the end) and Rachmaninoff is a challenge for them though it's far from being this sophisticated, high-brow dance that only the cultural elite can understand as you're trying to say here.

Totally disagree as far as skating skills. C/B has been able to adjust to different styles with ease. Can you see the Shibs dance to 'An American in Paris'? I don't think so. Can you see them performing to Dark Eyes? I don't think so. Can you see them do this Rach piece, I don't think so. But can you see C/B dance to 'Fix you'? I think so. I say this because the Shibs had done so many routines, podium-wise, were not remarkable until this season. Even their winning 2011 FD routine was remarkably forgettable. They are very accomplished skaters, of course, but they definitely are not better skaters than C/B.

Interesting that you'd single out this Rachmaninoff piece as easy to skate to. It was used in Pairs and Singles (the most famous was 1994 Lillehammer programs of the Russian silver-medalist _ but not this particular musical pattern/rhythm and arrangement).

 

[Debs122]

I think Chock/Bates have a more physically demanding dance but the issue is that the Shibs' skating skills and ice dance basics are stronger than Madison and Evan's and they aren't really dancers. I also think the over-choreographed style is just hiding their deficiencies. If they skated a simpler program I think it'd be more obvious who the superior dancers are.

That's not an accurate statement though. The Shibs have stronger skating skills and ice dance basics that Madison. I think people often overlook Evan, but to me he's a great male ice dancer and I don't see him as inferior to Alex and Maia. As a team though, yes, the Shibs are stronger and I'm happy for their win.

 

[Scovies]

Can you see the Shibs dance to 'An American in Paris'? I don't think so. Can you see them performing to Dark Eyes? I don't think so. Can you see them do this Rach piece, I don't think so.

"An American In Paris" isn't appropriate for a sibling team, so I don't think that's a fair question. But as far as the Shibutanis' stylistic range, I never would have thought they could pull off a paso doble, but it ended up being my favorite SD last year -- if they could do that, I don't think Dark Eyes would be too much of a stretch for them. Flip the question on its head, and I don't think C/B could pull off Coppelia nearly as well as the Shibs do.

For years they've been stuck with stodgy, old-fashioned programs because I don't think Marina really knew what to do with them. They've found some magic with Peter T., and I hope they stick with him for choreo.

 

[chloepoco]

Congratulations so the Shibs on their first title. It has been a long time coming. It's disappointing that Madison and Evan find themselves facing so much negativity they have represented the US very well on the international stage. Hopefully this loss of the title will bring out the fire that they need to make them a well-rounded team.

Being happy for the Shibutani's doesn't mean anyone is being negative towards Chock/Bates.

 

[Barb]

i think it is a great result for Shibs and CB. CB now know they need to do an extra effort because they wont to win always with whatever performance. And Shibs are getting motivation because they know it is not imposible to win.

 

[Astrid56]

"An American In Paris" isn't appropriate for a sibling team, so I don't think that's a fair question. But as far as the Shibutanis' stylistic range, I never would have thought they could pull off a paso doble, but it ended up being my favorite SD last year -- if they could do that, I don't think Dark Eyes would be too much of a stretch for them. Flip the question on its head, and I don't think C/B could pull off Coppelia nearly as well as the Shibs do.

For years they've been stuck with stodgy, old-fashioned programs because I don't think Marina really knew what to do with them. They've found some magic with Peter T., and I hope they stick with him for choreo.

Coppelia? Interesting that you would single that out as something C/B could not do. Their 2012 short dance (https://youtu.be/t9KDDftADQU ) was somewhat similar to this Shib's SD. C/B's theatrical and comedic flair would suit very well with Coppelia. As for "An American in Paris", one does not need to follow the exact storyline _Alex can play Jerry Mulligan while Maia can do the female version of his friend the struggling concert pianist. There are ways to approach a program: one just needs to be creative, inventive, and resourceful. The Houghs of the DWTS did so many wonderful dance routines and they're in real life brother-sister like the Shibs. See this Hough routine ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2TzPpgrxb8 ) ... there are many more routines with romantic overtones but you don't feel funny or iffy because of the way they danced the numbers.

 

[Astrid56]

Being happy for the Shibutani's doesn't mean anyone is being negative towards Chock/Bates.

True but it seems a snide reference to C/B's skating is necessary to highlight/underscore Shibs' greatness. Hmmmm.

 

[Scovies]

Coppelia? Interesting that you would single that out as something C/B could not do. Their 2012 short dance (https://youtu.be/t9KDDftADQU ) was somewhat similar to this Shib's SD. C/B's theatrical and comedic flair would suit very well with Coppelia. As for "An American in Paris", one does not need to follow the exact storyline _Alex can play Jerry Mulligan while Maia can do the female version of his friend the struggling concert pianist. There are ways to approach a program: one just needs to be creative, inventive, and resourceful. The Houghs of the DWTS did so many wonderful dance routines and they're in real life brother-sister like the Shibs. See this Hough routine ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2TzPpgrxb8 ) ... there are many more routines with romantic overtones but you don't feel funny or iffy because of the way they danced the numbers.

I really, really disliked C/B's SD in 2012, so that probably wasn't the best example to convince me. :confused2:

I thought you were implying that the Shibs couldn't do C/B's exact "American in Paris" program -- and they really couldn't, because that'd be gross. But yes, I think they could skate to that music without a problem. Their issue, in previous years, is that their coaching team never would have even considered it. They really needed to bring in outside choreographers. They did for their FD, and it paid off. They needed another set of eyes to push them creatively.

I'm familiar with the Houghs; I mostly remember them doing cha chas and jives (which aren't sexual at all) together. The routine you linked had a lot of tricks, underarm turns, and then a lot of side-by-side stuff with a decent bit of distance between them. The only actual "sexy" part of the routine was Julianne dancing on a table by herself. These are show numbers that aren't subject to the strict requirements if the IJS. There are lots of ways that sibling teams can work in ice dance, but I don't know if the Houghs are the best example of how to go about it.

 

[whatif]

Why don't we also offer Dirty Dancing to S/S while we at that!!!! Some ubers are so nasty.

 

[Astrid56]

I really, really disliked C/B's SD in 2012, so that probably wasn't the best example to convince me. :confused2:

I thought you were implying that the Shibs couldn't do C/B's exact "American in Paris" program -- and they really couldn't, because that'd be gross. But yes, I think they could skate to that music without a problem. Their issue, in previous years, is that their coaching team never would have even considered it. They really needed to bring in outside choreographers. They did for their FD, and it paid off. They needed another set of eyes to push them creatively.

I'm familiar with the Houghs; I mostly remember them doing cha chas and jives (which aren't sexual at all) together. The routine you linked had a lot of tricks, underarm turns, and then a lot of side-by-side stuff with a decent bit of distance between them. The only actual "sexy" part of the routine was Julianne dancing on a table by herself. These are show numbers that aren't subject to the strict requirements if the IJS. There are lots of ways that sibling teams can work in ice dance, but I don't know if the Houghs are the best example of how to go about it.

I am merely pointing out the possibilities. Yeah the Houghs did mostly jives and cha chas but if you listen to the lyrics of the music they danced to, you would cringe but they were such superb performers they could get away with things like that.

I didn't specifically say the Shibs should replicate the route/style C/B took in their "An American in Paris" but they certainly could dance to the music using a different approach. You don't have to like C/B's 2012 SD but the style is similar to Shibs' SD_ the humor injected in this C/B upbeat routine was on the spot and it takes good timing and wit to pull that off.

 

[Astrid56]

I don't understand the negativity towards C/B. It's mind-boggling ... bewildering! Why is there a need to cast them in an unflattering light? They could not have achieved their skating status with mediocre skills and so-so talent. As regards Madison, she skated just for one season with Kurt Lingenfelter on the intermediate level and they won the pewter medal at the 2006 U.S. Junior Championships. When she teamed up with Zuerlein, together they won the Junior Grand Prix Final, U.S. Junior Championships, and then the World Junior championship. Surely, these accomplishments speak not only of her great talent but also of her superb partnering and skating skills.

 

[NoNameFace]

I don't understand the negativity towards C/B. It's mind-boggling ... bewildering! Why is there a need to cast them in an unflattering light? They could not have achieved their skating status with mediocre skills and so-so talent. As regards Madison, she skated just for one season with Kurt Lingenfelter on the intermediate level and they won the pewter medal at the 2006 U.S. Junior Championships. When she teamed up with Zuerlein, together they won the Junior Grand Prix Final, U.S. Junior Championships, and then the World Junior championship. Surely, these accomplishments speak not only of her great talent but also of her superb partnering and skating skills.

I'm sorry if you feel so offended by some who are using Chock/Bates here as a points of comparision to Shibutanis and put them in negative light/assessment.

But the reality of the outcome produced in US Nationals is that it is inevitable to have this kind of comparision. I am not a fan of Madison and Evan myself, but I can't deny - they can be entertaining for some who like this kind of style/expression on ice. I can't deny they do have skills (they won't be able to high placements without them). But in my opinion, this year is a step back for them comparing to Shibutanis 3 steps forward, let's face it - 3 or more versions of their SD, constant deliberating, switching back and forth is never good to get a solid confidence for the ID segment where you can't win the whole competition, but you can lose it big time. And a constant re-working Rachmaninoff FD - this is a sign they are striving for perfection there, but since the beginning of the season they don't look fully comfortable with it in my eyes.

Last year - a very original, eye-catching SD (with all level 4s at Worlds) and a keeper FD to 'American in Paris' theme, totally their alley. I don't have to be a fan to appreciate good, suitable programs and good execution (if presented). This year - like above, constant switching, changing and still some troubles (I still think that they should have thought about changing their FD instead of SD - SD to Dark Eyes would be maybe difficult at the beginning, but so was their Paso Doble and we know how Worlds looked like...). Moreover - I still cannot see the confidence which was there last season in both technical execution and overall presentation of their programs.

And looking at Shibutanis this season - I see a truly different duo comparing to last season. 2 strong programs, more 'agressive', confident approach, taking a new choreographer on board for their competition program - it all paid off despite of Nepela disappointment at the beginning of the season. And that's the thing which makes me appreciate them even more - they also did have problems and mixed feedback of their programs at the beginning of the season (so many others, like Weaver/Poje), but they really stepped it up since then.

And this difference between 2 teams has shown clearly at US Nationals - hence the whole discussion here including both teams actually. There is really no escape from comparing them head-to-head while they're competing at 'home' event, US Nationals. And this time, with almost tied SD results, FD told the story there.

And the last thing about one team taking another one's program and chances to get good with it - in my opinion this is really pointless dispute and empty argument. For me, regarding American teams - until this very season - Chock/Bates was more stylish team, with characteristic flare for musically, entertaining programs whereas Shibutanis were doing some willy-nilly non-descript programs with no sense at all (at least FDs imo). Then, Coldplay FD emerged and it changed a lot of things - I see now that Shibutanis could do wonders with that modern/contemporary style, even be the best in it.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Let me say some great things about Chock/Bates that I think they do not get credit for.

For one, I think their FD is greatly improved since its debut at Skate America. Despite my previous post directly comparing them to the Shibs in terms of skating skills and execution of elements, I commend Madison and Evan for taking their skating a notch higher. I like more every time I see it and I agree with Madison and Evan that this is the best they performed it artistically. It's a shame that they lost here in a way because this dance has their best content even though I agree that the Shibs should have won.

Secondly, they do have incredible physically-demanding choreography. This is something the Shibs had in 2012 but since Igor left I find their programs since then to be a bit easier in that context. However, I think with Fix You they're working on cleanly executing their elements and using their strengths in deep edge work, posture, unison, holds, leg line, and doubling down on their more introverted lyrical style and highlighting those things. When they have routines that highlight it, it's hard to deny their world-class quality in that aspect. However, what Chock/Bates smartly do is use their athleticism and her back flexibility to her advantage.

Thirdly, that goes into my next point. I'm in awe with the way Madison enters and exits their lifts. The way she leaps with a full turn into the first lift, the way her back is stretched out on their rotational lift on the second part, and that beautiful arabesque to insane exit on that third lift cannot be denied. I think this is where they have it over a team like Weaver/Poje (who I enjoy and respect).

Fourth, despite my skepticism about their artistic ability, their trump card has always been Madison's charisma and old-school ice dance diva expressions. This is something you can't teach. Although I don't buy it all the time, I cannot deny Madison performs out there and when it works it works. For those who like that style, I can see why they fell for Madison and Evan.

Fifth, someone correctly responded to my comment about Madison and Evan being weaker in terms of ice dance skill. Madison is (you see her pushing from her toe picks a lot in Rach and seeing Evan drag her around the ice at times), but Evan is a world-class ice dancer and things like his arm support and edge work cannot be denied. I also find Madison improved a lot from when she first started with Evan.

I also agree with Astrid that C/B have been the brunt of anger from not just Shib fans but Weaver/Poje fans and even Emily Samuelson fans for the past five years and it's unfair to them. As a huge fan of the Shibs since 2009, I should be more sympathetic to unfair criticism as I found the Shibs to not be appreciated because people could not get into their material and they go against what a lot of people accept for ice dancers in terms of temperament and style. However, I do also think they, like the Shibs, do deserve some constructive criticism because they are at the top at the moment and champions or those with champions' potential have to keep improving.

Despite my criticism of their SD music choice, I do find it to fit them very well and I like their SD. I also find they are obviously working on their ballroom holds and it shows.

The best thing about Madison and Evan is that they are hard workers and you know this result will fire them up. They are hungry and want it, and when other ice dancers might have been resigned that the Shibs were set up as the second best American ice dance team from 2011, they knew they could overtake them, and with the help of Igor's technical coaching, they did in 2013.

I think we should celebrate the fact that the U.S. has two top five world-level teams and both teams are podium-worthy with the likes of Weaver/Poje, Cappellini/Lanotte, and Papadakis/Cizeron as of right now. Many countries have trouble maintaining one team as podium threats, and here we have two who seems assured to be at least top 6 once the Russians get it together. Many countries' second-rank teams can't say they can place in the upper-half of the top ten and here we have three teams that can easily make the top ten and are getting respect from the judges.