2016 US Nationals Senior Ladies SP

[topaz emerald]

Welcome to Golden Skate! :thumbsup: Post often and long. Polina had a stand out moment here in the Short Program but earlier in the season she was not so consistent and lost levels on spins, had edge call problems etc.
Still, if she continues to be consistent she will also be able to climb the ranks, like Satoko has done this year.

thank you Interspectator......

Polina is so far my favorite US ladies skater, but I will admit I have been disappointed with her program music and choreography after her first senior nationals. That aspect of her skating has gone downhill....but her SP here tonight was lovely even though I think Beethoven is such depressing music.

 

[stella luna]

Their mistakes were big and they did cost them - they should be well ahead of skaters like Mirai and Tyler, not neck and neck. If they had skated those short programs at worlds it would have taken them out of medal contention. But this wasn't the worlds level competition - and almost everyone underperformed. I'm just saying, looking at the protocols, I honestly don't think they were unfairly gifted (at least, under the current rules. I do think that the rules don't necessarily penalize mistakes suifficisntly but that's a seperate point). Do you not see a difference between Ashley and Gracie's programs (both construction and skill in delivery) and most of the rest of the field?

I do, mostly in speed and elegance, but there are established standards that are not being met by either of these competitors.

 

[topaz emerald]

Welcome, topaz emerald. You have a lovely moniker.

Thank you Stella Luna. I really like the name Stella

 

[Skater Boy]

I watched as many programs as I could. First of all, this is the US championships where there is so much pressure because the competitionis immense probably more difficult than many international events. And skaters were tight and made mistkes.

Congrats to Polina who showed she has guts and is a real competitor and I have to give that to her - the girl can compete. I think many of us don't think her skating skills are top notch and her performance not as polished skater but remember she has been in the top ten at worlds so she is no slouch - though I do not like her fs program and that dress- ugh - and that bow it looks more like she broke wind that gone with the wind. But she has a big lead and she is a competitor so she could win the title The odds are Gracie and or AShley will beat her in the long but it may not be enough. And both Ashley and Gracie do have very high quality pcs/skating skills and performance. too bad about the jump issues though. I thought Mirai was little undermarked and it was sad about the boots. I think we know who will be going to worlds - GAP. Really disappointed about Karen Chen and Ashley Cain as well as Courtney Hicks. Idon't want to read into anything but it is almost like the judges are no longer enamoured with Mirai. This was a poorly skated sp other than Polina - Diva Ashley and Gracie are lucky everyone else tumbled like the Canadian ladies.

 

[stella luna]

Thank you Stella Luna. I really like the name Stella

 

[shaneb]

Michelle Kwan had one competition under IJS and even with not maximizing her score the way she could have or studying the system better she still placed third in the SP and LP portion and that was with what is probably her poorest Worlds LP performance ever. Polina recently scored 65+ at Rostelecom Cup for her SP. With Nationals inflation and an even better performance, it was on par. Ashley Wagner scored higher for her Nats SP here than she did at GPF SP (by more than 2 points) and 2015 Worlds (by five points for a similar skate except she had a higher BV at Worlds). Gracie scored on par with what she usually did with a mistake, but she popped a jump here which was pretty bad and still got a 62+.

Except that a perceived clean program by Polina internationally still scores lower than a perceived clean program by Ashley internationally. Those are obvious facts from this season. So what exactly is the point you are trying to prove? Nothing that I said was refuted by anything in your response. And who cares if Michelle Kwan skated only once under the IJS system in a world championships....at that point so had Sasha, and she placed higher. And even to that who cares ...my point wasn't to go in the past to throw shade on the current...it was simply to say, the greats of the past might not measure up as well even in their prime by todays standards. The sport has gotten tougher, and the participation in the sport new talent wise has dwindled in out country. So statistically speaking there is less of a pool to pull from in general. So cut all the skaters some slack in our current generation and encourage them instead. Unless you are the skater that can beat everyone we are discussing...its annoying to be so negative and stuck in the past history of US figure skating results internationally. It really doesn't change the circumstances or promote growth...In my opinion

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Is there video for me to run thru the jumpamatron that is HD? Which jumps would you like?

Actually...thanks to IN the videos out are terrible :hopelessness:

I thought her jumps looked great in the video I saw and I've made videos that show her flip on the wrong edge. Her flip looked good to me and the 3z-3t was very nicely done

 

[shaneb]

are you replying to me?

sorry, I am getting old. Kristi did win in Albertbille. And yes, I remember Tonya Harding and Nancing Kerrigan situation.

Well, Polina did well at her first senior nationals, think she got 2nd place. But after that, I feel USFSA really held her back in favor of Wagner and Gold. She even missed the podium at one point at Nationals...Karen Chen beat her, I couldn't believe it.

But your point was that US Figure Skating shouldn't hold her back and boost up her scores because she was better than Gracie and Ashley. My point was simply internationally that hasn't proven to be the case. And international placement isn't the U.S. holding her back...I mean, they sent her the Olympics her first year senior. I say thats extremely encouraging....

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

But your point was that US Figure Skating shouldn't hold her back and boost up her scores because she was better than Gracie and Ashley. My point was simply internationally that hasn't proven to be the case. And international placement isn't the U.S. holding her back...I mean, they sent her the Olympics her first year senior. I say thats extremely encouraging....

Winning 4CC's shouldn't be swept under the rug as if it was nothing :think:

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I was just disputing that American women hadn't been competitive under IJS before because they have. Yes, the international field has gotten tougher AND IJS evens out the playing field in terms of TES. I agree with you on that. However, it doesn't mean that Ashley and Gracie have performed up to their ability. They are probably angrier about their inability to hit routines (something within their control) than any fan. It'd be one thing if they were performing well more often (not even expecting regularly) and losing out internationally. At least they were able to handle what they can control, but it seems they can't do that and the American ladies seem, as a whole, behind internationally technically. This is a concern some are talking about.

One thing I don't get is your point about a perceived clean program by Polina internationally not scoring as well as a perceived clean program by Ashley. That isn't the case here as Ashley did not perform cleanly here. Polina was able to score 65+ for her SP at Rostelecom Cup, so it's not as if her score here was way out of whack from what the international judges had scored her in the past. She has also scored in the 120s (from 122 to 126+, even winning 4CC last season), so it's not as if the USFS judges are crazily out-of-step with the international judges when Polina skates well. For someone who wants to cut the American ladies some slack, you honed in on Polina. Maybe you have a problem with the harsh criticism Ashley and Gracie are getting, rather than the American ladies as a whole. I know your point was to say the USFS didn't hold Polina back, and I agree with that. But I don't think misconstruing what the international judges are doing is needed.

 

[delray1977]

Except that a perceived clean program by Polina internationally still scores lower than a perceived clean program by Ashley internationally. Those are obvious facts from this season. So what exactly is the point you are trying to prove? Nothing that I said was refuted by anything in your response. And who cares if Michelle Kwan skated only once under the IJS system in a world championships....at that point so had Sasha, and she placed higher. And even to that who cares ...my point wasn't to go in the past to throw shade on the current...it was simply to say, the greats of the past might not measure up as well even in their prime by todays standards. The sport has gotten tougher, and the participation in the sport new talent wise has dwindled in out country. So statistically speaking there is less of a pool to pull from in general. So cut all the skaters some slack in our current generation and encourage them instead. Unless you are the skater that can beat everyone we are discussing...its annoying to be so negative and stuck in the past history of US figure skating results internationally. It really doesn't change the circumstances or promote growth...In my opinion

yes!...thank you, kicking them while they are down is not going to help. I don't know about the rest of you but I got my tickets for Boston and I will be there to support them no matter what.

 

[topaz emerald]

I watched as many programs as I could. First of all, this is the US championships where there is so much pressure because the competitionis immense probably more difficult than many international events. And skaters were tight and made mistkes.

Congrats to Polina who showed she has guts and is a real competitor and I have to give that to her - the girl can compete. I think many of us don't think her skating skills are top notch and her performance not as polished skater but remember she has been in the top ten at worlds so she is no slouch - though I do not like her fs program and that dress- ugh - and that bow it looks more like she broke wind that gone with the wind. But she has a big lead and she is a competitor so she could win the title The odds are Gracie and or AShley will beat her in the long but it may not be enough. And both Ashley and Gracie do have very high quality pcs/skating skills and performance. too bad about the jump issues though. I thought Mirai was little undermarked and it was sad about the boots. I think we know who will be going to worlds - GAP. Really disappointed about Karen Chen and Ashley Cain as well as Courtney Hicks. Idon't want to read into anything but it is almost like the judges are no longer enamoured with Mirai. This was a poorly skated sp other than Polina - Diva Ashley and Gracie are lucky everyone else tumbled like the Canadian ladies.

Hi Skater Boy....

I agree, Polina deserves a better costume as Scarlett, right? Ha. If you compare her dress and choreography and music cut to Alaine Chartrand of Canada's Gone with the Wind program, Alain's program blows Polina's away. Polina lacks a good choreographer with lacks good music choices. I think she should have Shailyn Bourne choreograph her program. It seems Canada have all the great choreographers.

 

[shaneb]

Winning 4CC's shouldn't be swept under the rug as if it was nothing :think:

The point made was that I was responding to was that Polina was being held back by the US Federation and that the poster felt she was better than Gracie and Ashley. I'm not wanting to take anything away from Polina's accomplishments. But by that standard, even then Ashley is still outranking her, since she has won 4CC and then some. Also, as I noted earlier. I am not one any one skaters side...I am for all of them to do well. I'm merely countering the bashing of other skaters to give substantiation to elevate another.

 

[Anni234]

Every time I am forced to miss a competition (in this case I was sound asleep ) and come to see the results, I am more than amazed. Here's hoping I can stay awake during the FP.

 

[topaz emerald]

But your point was that US Figure Skating shouldn't hold her back and boost up her scores because she was better than Gracie and Ashley. My point was simply internationally that hasn't proven to be the case. And international placement isn't the U.S. holding her back...I mean, they sent her the Olympics her first year senior. I say thats extremely encouraging....

No, I never said they should boost up her scores. I only said they haven't promoted her like they did with AShley and Gold. It seems Ashley and Gold did well internationally because of it despite their flawed programs. I just think it would help Polina a little internationally if the USFSA placed her ahead of Wagner and Gold nationally. However, now that I think about it, Polina doesn't need promoting. I think as long as she stays consistent, she will remain a competitive and have a chance to win.

 

[Lexiglass]

I do, mostly in speed and elegance, but there are established standards that are not being met by either of these competitors.

I really have no idea what you mean by that. They each missed elements in their short program and lost a lot of points for doing so. They're still in medal contention because (a) most of their competitors also missed elements and (b) their speed and elegance are worth PCS points under the established standards and they outscored most of their competitors on that front.

Both Gracie and Ashley are frustrating skaters. You can't rely on them to grit it out and deliver their elements. I am frustrated that they are the best that US has right now (although Polina is certainly trying to prove that statement wrong! Here's hoping she maintains her consistency and continues to improve on her URs and speed) - but to me it's clear that they definitely are the best the US has to offer. I don't really understand why people find it inexplicable that they score higher than the other American ladies. Just my two cents, I will stop beating this topic to death.

On a separate but related note, I don't understand the mentality where people seem to get mad at Gracie and Ashley for underperforming - IMO they're only hurting themselves, and it makes me feel bad for them, not angry. They have the skills to be on world podiums but they can't get it together - such a shame.

 

[shaneb]

I was just disputing that American women hadn't been competitive under IJS before because they have. Yes, the international field has gotten tougher AND IJS evens out the playing field in terms of TES. I agree with you on that. However, it doesn't mean that Ashley and Gracie have performed up to their ability. They are probably angrier about their inability to hit routines (something within their control) than any fan. It'd be one thing if they were performing well more often (not even expecting regularly) and losing out internationally. At least they were able to handle what they can control, but it seems they can't do that and the American ladies seem, as a whole, behind internationally technically. This is a concern some are talking about.

One thing I don't get is your point about a perceived clean program by Polina internationally not scoring as well as a perceived clean program by Ashley. That isn't the case here as Ashley did not perform cleanly here. Polina was able to score 65+ for her SP at Rostelecom Cup, so it's not as if her score here was way out of whack from what the international judges had scored her in the past. She has also scored in the 120s (from 122 to 126+, even winning 4CC last season), so it's not as if the USFS judges are crazily out-of-step with the international judges when Polina skates well. For someone who wants to cut the American ladies some slack, you honed in on Polina. Maybe you have a problem with the harsh criticism Ashley and Gracie are getting, rather than the American ladies as a whole. I know your point was to say the USFS didn't hold Polina back, and I agree with that. But I don't think misconstruing what the international judges are doing is needed.

My argument wasn't based in what the placement is at this point at Nationals. It was in regard to a comment about wether or not Ashley and Gracie should be on the world team because they aren't "living up to their potential" ...which who is really to know what that is besides them and the universe or what not??. I was simply pointing out that what are the better options athlete wise to make the world team. Because out of the options mentioned they still haven't out scored on average better than either Gracie or Ashley internationally. Win did I say Polina's first place standing after the short program at nationals wasn't deserved? I couldn't care less who wins...I would love for all of them to skate lights out. I was countering a point against other skaters to raise the opinion of Polina as a skater. Not that she isn't a good skater. Please don't misconstrue just for arguments sake I don't have a problem with criticism if its constructive and there are viable solutions to be had. Side note, how would one misconstrue the scores of the international judging panel? Also, relax...I was going off of results not favoritism.

 

[shaneb]

No, I never said they should boost up her scores. I only said they haven't promoted her like they did with AShley and Gold. It seems Ashley and Gold did well internationally because of it despite their flawed programs. I just think it would help Polina a little internationally if the USFSA placed her ahead of Wagner and Gold nationally. However, now that I think about it, Polina doesn't need promoting. I think as long as she stays consistent, she will remain a competitive and have a chance to win.

yes exactly...thats what it should be about

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No, I never said they should boost up her scores. I only said they haven't promoted her like they did with AShley and Gold. It seems Ashley and Gold did well internationally because of it despite their flawed programs. I just think it would help Polina a little internationally if the USFSA placed her ahead of Wagner and Gold nationally. However, now that I think about it, Polina doesn't need promoting. I think as long as she stays consistent, she will remain a competitive and have a chance to win.

I swear I remembering people posting that Ashley would/should/will break 75 with a clean skate. Why doesn't Polina get that score for delivering in the same competition if she isn't held back a bit compared to clean Ashley or Gracie. Personally...Polina's FS is a bit lackluster but her SP is the best the US Ladies have to offer. I'm glad I've seen clips of her in the last few weeks working with Rudy on her choreography. Maybe she touched up her program a bit.

Bottom line for me. I think Ashley, Gracie, and Polina should be scored evenly when at their best. Polina at least looks to be capable of raising her current level of skating.

2nd place popped a jump and only did a 3-2. That's not anything I would have expected to be possible even in a JGP event.

 

[topaz emerald]

I swear I remembering people posting that Ashley would/should/will break 75 with a clean skate. Why doesn't Polina get that score for delivering in the same competition if she isn't held back a bit compared to clean Ashley or Gracie. Personally...Polina's FS is a bit lackluster but her SP is the best the US Ladies have to offer. I'm glad I've seen clips of her in the last few weeks working with Rudy on her choreography. Maybe she touched up her program a bit.

Bottom line for me. I think Ashley, Gracie, and Polina should be scored evenly when at their best. Polina at least looks to be capable of raising her current level of skating.

2nd place popped a jump and only did a 3-2. That's not anything I would have expected to be possible even in a JGP event.

Exactly. The problem is Polina lacks the IT factor, do you know what I mean? She is quiet. Even if she is underscored, she is quiet about it and puts a smile on her face. Never complained about her scores and continues to work hard. So how does one get the judges attention? Through excellent music choices and choreography like Yuzuru Hanyu, who is the greatest skater I have ever seen in my life, btw. If POlina can challenge herself and raise her level of programs choices, she will win, or at least remain a close competitive as long as she stays consistent )