2017 GP Rostelecom Cup Ladies FS

[andromache]

When? I've seen no proof of any of this...

Yeah....what???

 

[jenaj]

For once, I agreed with Tara, when she said the judges were too harsh on Mirai. Both she and Johnny thought her 3A was borderline. Unfortunately, seeing her program on TV, she did look nervous and Johnny was right when he said she was kind of robotic. By the way, I am starting to have a big problem with the criticism of Mirai (and other female skaters) for not smiling or "emoting" or "showing face." This is a standard that appararently doesn't apply to the men. Yuzuru had a serious look throughout his program but got the highest PCS. I can't remember the last time I heard a male skater criticized for not smiling or "showing face."

 

[Violet Bliss]

there are some really nice Canadian posters tho who even if they have their biases (like all of us) at least express it in an polite way

Thank you.

I've never been shy about respecting Evgenia, cheering Liza, and adoring Anna, polite or not.

And I've never disrespected a whole group of people by fandom or nationality.

 

[moriel]

just in case, i´m not bashing all the canadian posters, but a specific group that is all over the forum promoting canadian skaters in treads such as russian ladies, or this one, where it is a bit of an offtopic

 

[Aino]

From the skaters who have shown their programs this season, I can add Carolina to my list of favourites (along with Kaetlyn and Mai). Her LP is so good, it is very interesting and surprising, every part is good, including the ending.

 

[chuckm]

Carolina was superb. There was a case of a skater who completely related to her music and expressed that beautifully to the audience.

 

[andromache]

For once, I agreed with Tara, when she said the judges were too harsh on Mirai. Both she and Johnny thought her 3A was borderline. Unfortunately, seeing her program on TV, she did look nervous and Johnny was right when he said she was kind of robotic. By the way, I am starting to have a big problem with the criticism of Mirai (and other female skaters) for not smiling or "emoting" or "showing face." This is a standard that appararently doesn't apply to the men. Yuzuru had a serious look throughout his program but got the highest PCS. I can't remember the last time I heard a male skater criticized for not smiling or "showing face."

Yuzuru definitely does give face. Yuzu gives very decent face. He might not be out there giving Evgenia or Ashley levels of face, but that's because it isn't necessary for his music. But he doesn't skate with a blank face - he skates with a fierce/serious face that suits his music, and he seems to often be looking at the judges/audience. Doing Prince definitely required a different kind of face than his usual, and some performances were more successful than others at this, and it did impact how fans/judges responded to that SP.

That said, the better/more complex your skating and choreography, the less you need to give face to communicate, as the skating and the choreography does the communicating instead. Given how empty Mirai's programs are, she would definitely benefit by giving face. Like, Javier Fernandez might not have the choreography of Hanyu, but he gives better face than him, and it does go a long way. Mirai's programs don't communicate with the audience in terms of body language/choreography or face.

 

[jenaj]

Yuzuru definitely does give face. Yuzu gives very decent face. He might not be out there giving Evgenia or Ashley levels of face, but that's because it isn't necessary for his music. But he doesn't skate with a blank face - he skates with a fierce/serious face that suits his music, and he seems to often be looking at the judges/audience. Doing Prince definitely required a different kind of face than his usual, and some performances were more successful than others at this, and it did impact how fans/judges responded to that SP.

That said, the better/more complex your skating and choreography, the less you need to give face to communicate, as the skating and the choreography does the communicating instead. Given how empty Mirai's programs are, she would definitely benefit by giving face. Like, Javier Fernandez might not have the choreography of Hanyu, but he gives better face than him, and it does go a long way. Mirai's programs don't communicate with the audience in terms of body language/choreography or face.

The negative comments about "giving face" are almost invariably directed towards women. It reminds me of men who tell women to smile.

 

[Mathman]

Mirai's programs don't communicate with the audience in terms of body language/choreography or face.

I think that audiences (in the US at least) are nostalgic for the 2010 Mirai. She is grown up now -- even, by skating standards, an elder statesman. IMHO she does project to the audience, but more subtly than before. However, she has to nail the technical content for the choreography and interpretation to work.

 

[Shayuki]

The negative comments about "giving face" are almost invariably directed towards women. It reminds me of men who tell women to smile.

Hmmm... It makes quite a large difference to me. Some skaters definitely do this better than others and it does make a large impact. It's an appropriate thing to criticize, in my opinion. It could be the single most important thing about interpretation.

 

[jenaj]

Hmmm... It makes quite a large difference to me. Some skaters definitely do this better than others and it does make a large impact. It's an appropriate thing to criticize, in my opinion. It could be the single most important thing about interpretation.

It's fine to criticize it if it applies to men and women. But I only see it being applied to women. Male skaters are never expected to smile. And don't get me wrong, I like Hanyu a lot, but his demeanor while skating is pretty stoic.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Hmmm... It makes quite a large difference to me. Some skaters definitely do this better than others and it does make a large impact. It's an appropriate thing to criticize, in my opinion. It could be the single most important thing about interpretation.

Sounds like a good reason to lower the overall impact PCS has on final scores. The last thing I'm interested in seeing practiced and rewarded in an Olympic sport is the ability to fake a smile. Lol.

FWIW: I love happy smiley Mariah because it fits her natural character but I don't think she should get points for it. To me..that's just silly.

In terms of facial expressions in general...seems pretty far removed the skills I want to see rewarded in figure skating. Obviously YMMV.

 

[Shayuki]

It's fine to criticize it if it applies to men and women. But I only see it being applied to women. Male skaters are never expected to smile. And don't get me wrong, I like Hanyu a lot, but his demeanor while skating is pretty stoic.

It's not only about smiling. Well, smiling of course is included as well, but it really depends on the program. Sometimes a wondering look, sometimes smiling, sometimes more serious. Whatever works with the music.

When I think about Hanyu and Fernandez for example - They both have their own style but they both certainly connect with the music and express it, though in a very different manner.

Personally, I prefer it to seem a little more genuine rather than over-the-top. Of course, Shcherbakova is far and away my favorite when it comes to expression as a reference to the style I would enjoy.

 

[Mathman]

It's fine to criticize it if it applies to men and women. But I only see it being applied to women. Male skaters are never expected to smile.

Men have their own burden:

"His nose should pant and his lip should curl
His cheeks should flame and his brow should furl
His bosom should heave and his heart should glow
And his fist be ever ready for a knock-down blow"

Second verse, same as the first, a little bit louder and a little bit worse:

"His foot should stamp and his throat should growl
His hair should curl and his face should scowl
His eyes should flash and his breast protrude
And this should be his customary attitude. (*manly pose*)

 

[andromache]

I think that audiences (in the US at least) are nostalgic for the 2010 Mirai. She is grown up now -- even, by skating standards, an elder statesman. IMHO she does project to the audience, but more subtly than before. However, she has to nail the technical content for the choreography and interpretation to work.

I'm inclined to disagree, but then I haven't seen her live to make a complete assessment on that. I'm less bothered by her face (I think a stoic expression is fine for her music, especially Miss Saigon) than I am by the lack of choreography - it's easier to "sell" choreographically simple programs if you're going all in on your facial expressions. Lack of overt facial expression notwithstanding, I just don't get a sense of intention/emotion behind the little choreography there is, such as during the StSq. More of an impression of going through the motions. Gracie Gold has a very similar quality, though her programs usually have more / more impressive choreography, which partially makes up for her weaknesses.

 

[jenaj]

Sounds like a good reason to lower the overall impact PCS has on final scores. The last thing I'm interested in seeing practiced and rewarded in an Olympic sport is the ability to fake a smile. Lol.

FWIW: I love happy smiley Mariah because it fits her natural character but I don't think she should get points for it. To me..that's just silly.

In terms of facial expressions in general...seems pretty far removed the skills I want to see rewarded in figure skating. Obviously YMMV.

I agree, but the problem is, smiling, miming, emoting etc., are being taken into account in awarding points, at least for female skaters.

 

[beki]

I think the AK program is a great change for Med and I'm looking forward to watching it develop. This time, I felt it was a little too light and bright throughout. I would like to see some moments where she shows greater seriousness and even melancholy.

 

[jenaj]

I'm inclined to disagree, but then I haven't seen her live to make a complete assessment on that. I'm less bothered by her face (I think a stoic expression is fine for her music, especially Miss Saigon) than I am by the lack of choreography - it's easier to "sell" choreographically simple programs if you're going all in on your facial expressions. Lack of overt facial expression notwithstanding, I just don't get a sense of intention/emotion behind the little choreography there is, such as during the StSq. More of an impression of going through the motions. Gracie Gold has a very similar quality, though her programs usually have more / more impressive choreography, which partially makes up for her weaknesses.

There is no longer a score for choreography, so the alleged lack of it (I don't agree that there is no choreography) shouldn't affect her PCS. And it's still early in the season. She just needs to commit more to the choreography she has, which should develop in time, like it did for her in 2016, when she had her best performances at Worlds.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Patrick Chan used to be habitually criticized for his lack of facial expressions. In figure skating, the feet should get get most of the attention, and body movements are part of skating skills as well as artistic expression. Facial expressions are only obvious on close ups for video viewers and are usually debated heatedly only when there is not much else to pick on legitimately.

That said, I find Evgenia's facial acting a bit too choreographed, over-used, and similar. Still, I don't think it should have much or any bearing on her scores. I do much prefer artistry expressed via skating and body movements a la Carolina Kostner and Patrick Chan.

 

[andromache]

I agree, but the problem is, smiling, miming, emoting etc., are being taken into account in awarding points, at least for female skaters.

Trust me, they're being taken into account for male skaters as well as female. Otherwise I do not think Javier Fernandez would earn such high scores/

Emotional/intellectual involvement and projection, expression of the music's character, and demonstrating an inner feeling for the music have always been a part of evaluating PCS (I stole this language from the IJS), or in ye olden times, artistic impression. I personally wouldn't have it any other way.

It's so much more than fake smiling.

There is no longer a score for choreography, so the alleged lack of it (I don't agree that there is no choreography) shouldn't affect her PCS. And it's still early in the season. She just needs to commit more to the choreography she has, which should develop in time, like it did for her in 2016, when she had her best performances at Worlds.

Saying "there is no longer a score for choreography" is blatantly false. Just because they changed the name doesn't mean choreography doesn't matter. The composition bullets clearly describe choreography. As far as "an intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern and structure" go, I find Mirai to be lacking, most notably due to the frequency with which she is skating from point A to point B with a lack of body movements relating to the music or otherwise performative/intentional body movements.