2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

[drivingmissdaisy]

The coach is supposed to train the student's technique properly. You can hardly use a classroom analogy here. They indeed have technical issues that cause their problems, and I don't think they learned it themselves.

Out of interest though, why would you blame the student for poor rotation?

It might be the case that Vincent is spreading himself too thin training too many different quads when he'd be better off doing two well. That's where I think the lack of focused coaching shows. Jason, with no quads and not nearly maxing out on triples in the LP, has a SB around 30 points higher than Vincent. It's like when Tom posted those videos of Max doing the 4A in a harness; the whole time I'm just thinking "why don't you guys instead work on getting two quads really consistent?" The days of winning with a bunch of low-quality quads are over.

 

[princessalica]

How is Alexei doing health wise? Is he back to 100%? I feel like we haven't really seen him this fall.

He competed in 2 Grand Prix events. His trajectory seems to be upward. His scores from the Grand Prix were much higher than his regional score.

 

[Jammers]

It might be the case that Vincent is spreading himself too thin training too many different quads when he'd be better off doing two well. That's where I think the lack of focused coaching shows. Jason, with no quads and not nearly maxing out on triples in the LP, has a SB around 30 points higher than Vincent. It's like when Tom posted those videos of Max doing the 4A in a harness; the whole time I'm just thinking "why don't you guys instead work on getting two quads really consistent?" The days of winning with a bunch of low-quality quads are over.

Vincent should have been spending his time working on his skating skills and speed then slowly adding in quads since more speed helps with jumps but he saw how fast Nathan rose with them and tried to do the same thing but overdid it with the quads. Nathan had a better foundation as a skater when he started to push himself with the quads but Tom Z is all about the jumps and not about the basic skating skills you need.

 

[karne]

It's like when Tom posted those videos of Max doing the 4A in a harness; the whole time I'm just thinking "why don't you guys instead work on getting two quads really consistent?" The days of winning with a bunch of low-quality quads are over.

*annoyed sniff* Yes, but the difference is, Max never went and tried it in competition, because he couldn't rotate it. That doesn't mean he couldn't have some fun.

Max went back and reworked his quad toe technique by himself because he knew he needed a second quad to be competitive. He analysed videos from almost every other skater that could do it, went on the ice and tried different techniques until he put together one that worked for him. Max knew. He knew he needed it. So he did what was necessary, put in the man hours himself to make it happen.

Tom Z didn't teach Max the final form of his quad toe. Max made it happen on his own. Because he knew his technique was wrong and he knew he needed a second quad so he did what he had to do to make sure he was doing it right.

 

[lurkz2]

*annoyed sniff* Yes, but the difference is, Max never went and tried it in competition, because he couldn't rotate it. That doesn't mean he couldn't have some fun.

Max went back and reworked his quad toe technique by himself because he knew he needed a second quad to be competitive. He analysed videos from almost every other skater that could do it, went on the ice and tried different techniques until he put together one that worked for him. Max knew. He knew he needed it. So he did what was necessary, put in the man hours himself to make it happen.

Tom Z didn't teach Max the final form of his quad toe. Max made it happen on his own. Because he knew his technique was wrong and he knew he needed a second quad so he did what he had to do to make sure he was doing it right.

Maybe he could have had better results if he didn't need to make it "happen on his own"? Isn't that what a coach is supposed to be there for?

 

[skatenewbie]

i think its more likely to be Nathan, Jason and Vincent. but if Vincent got </<< all over protocols then Camden/Alexei might snatch #3 if squeaky clen which both yet to do.

 

[karne]

Maybe he could have had better results if he didn't need to make it "happen on his own"? Isn't that what a coach is supposed to be there for?

Not quite the point I was making, but close enough. I had mixed feelings about Max and Z for a long time.

 

[tokoyami]

re: that classroom analogy - I think it would be perfectly fair and sane to start blaming the teacher when multiple students are failing his/her course. This means the teacher isn't doing their job right if it means the students aren't passing isn't that like, obvious?

Tom Z has left a bad taste in my mouth when I found out that he forced an injured skater* to perform, they failed terribly, then had the gall to try and comfort them at the Kiss n Cry in front of all those cameras. It feel like he only cares for saving face and having a good reputation.

*I cannot for the life of me remember which skater this is, but I remember reading about it in a thread some time ago. It happened years ago IIRC

 

[karne]

re: that classroom analogy - I think it would be perfectly fair and sane to start blaming the teacher when multiple students are failing his/her course. This means the teacher isn't doing their job right if it means the students aren't passing isn't that like, obvious?

Tom Z has left a bad taste in my mouth when I found out that he forced an injured skater* to perform, they failed terribly, then had the gall to try and comfort them at the Kiss n Cry in front of all those cameras. It feel like he only cares for saving face and having a good reputation.

*I cannot for the life of me remember which skater this is, but I remember reading about it in a thread some time ago. It happened years ago IIRC

It was Joshua at Nationals 2011. He'd torn his hip muscle in practice, skated the SP on painkillers, suffered an anaphylactic reaction the night before the FS and was at the hospital until 2am, couldn't have painkillers the next day because of medication interactions, and broke his ankle during the FS. And then Z asked him if he was glad he'd done it and Josh just howled "NO!" straight through everyone's heart. He was sixteen at the time. Whether Z forced him to do it is a contentious issue; certainly Z's behaviour in the kiss and cry suggested he may have put some pressure on.

Perhaps Max had to work himself on the quad toe because Z was too busy with his shiny new toys Mirai and Vincent. Certainly if you followed Z's social media last season you'd start thinking those two were his only international students.

 

[century2009]

Even if Vincent or Camden wants to move to a different coach, i dont Tom Z will let them go, which is sad because they have potential like Max and just not coached well.

I dont think they has been a skater that left Tom Z and went to a different coach. I think they retired out.

 

[ice coverage]

Even if Vincent or Camden wants to move to a different coach, i dont Tom Z will let them go ...

I dont think they has been a skater that left Tom Z and went to a different coach. I think they retired out.

Vincent is an example of a skater who did leave Tom Z -- after one season, as was recently discussed in this thread.

(Vincent went back to Tammy for another season with her.

And then the following season, Vincent relocated back to Colorado Springs -- and started his phase of three coaches [Drew Meekins and Tom Z in Colorado, plus Tammy in California].

As of this season, Vincent's three coaches -- Tammy, Tom Z, and Christy -- all are based in Colorado.)

IIRC, Agnes Zawadzki left Tom Z for Christy. (And IIRC, then Agnes ended up returning to TZ as well.)

Like any coach, Tom Z cannot force a skater to stay. [ETA: At least, I do not see how a U.S. coach can force a skater to stay.]
Jeremy Abbott is another who continued his career with other coaches, after leaving TZ.

 

[Tahuu]

Vincent is better than other US men not named Nathan or Jason. World team will be these three.

 

[labgoat]

How are Tim D and Alex J doing...anyone miss Ross Miner about now...

 

[chuckm]

Both Vincent and Camden need to GET AWAY FROM TOM Z and find better coaching. Tom is the worse possible coach for both of them right now.

 

[Shani]

Jeremy Abbott went to Yuka Sato. Yebin Mok just burned out but what a phenomenal skater she was.

 

[Weathergal]

Even if Vincent or Camden wants to move to a different coach, i dont Tom Z will let them go, which is sad because they have potential like Max and just not coached well.

I dont think they has been a skater that left Tom Z and went to a different coach. I think they retired out.

Jeremy Abbott left Tom Z and went to Yuka Sato and Jason Dunjgen. He did quite well with them.

 

[musicfan80]

Maybe he could have had better results if he didn't need to make it "happen on his own"? Isn't that what a coach is supposed to be there for?

It was Joshua at Nationals 2011. He'd torn his hip muscle in practice, skated the SP on painkillers, suffered an anaphylactic reaction the night before the FS and was at the hospital until 2am, couldn't have painkillers the next day because of medication interactions, and broke his ankle during the FS. And then Z asked him if he was glad he'd done it and Josh just howled "NO!" straight through everyone's heart. He was sixteen at the time. Whether Z forced him to do it is a contentious issue; certainly Z's behaviour in the kiss and cry suggested he may have put some pressure on.

Perhaps Max had to work himself on the quad toe because Z was too busy with his shiny new toys Mirai and Vincent. Certainly if you followed Z's social media last season you'd start thinking those two were his only international students.

I will forever believe that it was a HUGE mistake for Max to have stayed with Tom Z. He should have left after 2014, IMHO.

BTW, I’m convinced that there had to be a bunch of other stuff going on with Tom Z. and him coaching Joshua because I believe he changed coaches ASAP after 2011 Nationals. It seemed like a “final straw” type of decision.
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I can’t see how the world team won’t be Nathan, Vincent, and Jason. Unless Vincent or Jason completely implodes and someone like Dolensky has nothing short of the skate of his life. I wish the U.S. senior men’s bench was a bit better right now. SIGH.

 

[mrrice]

How are Tim D and Alex J doing...anyone miss Ross Miner about now...

This is an excellent question. I really enjoy both skaters and I look forward to seeing them at Nationals.

 

[livetoskate]

Tim Dolensky looked top-notch and world-class at Eastern sectionals. Even in the warm-ups, he was landing his jumps securely, spinning as well as Jason Brown, and had a lot of speed. Maybe it was also due to the lackluster skating qualities of his other competitors, but I was really impressed with Tim's skating. Looking forward to seeing him at nationals.

 

[century2009]

Jeremy Abbott left Tom Z and went to Yuka Sato and Jason Dunjgen. He did quite well with them.

Yeah, Jeremy did well after leaving Tom Z.

Tom Z is really not a good coach. I dont say that to be mean, but it really is showing how he fail his skaters.

It feels Tom Z is after himself at the expense of his skaters, which is sad.

I just dont like where these promising skaters are just not managed well.

I dont think it will get better for Camden or Vincent.