2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating

skylark said:
here you go. https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?78289-2019-US-Nationals-Video-Thread/page2

They're in the 6th post down the page. I notice that Deanna/Nate's, probably among others, is the same link that I used above. But those links are working again, for some inexplicable reason. :dance2:

Have you watched my favorite younger US Pair yet? Audrey Lu and Misha Mitrofanov. They were juniors just last year. They struggled a bit on the FS with the lift (really, it was a terrible night for lifts, until Ashley and Tim came through without even a wobble, and there was air in the arena again!) ... but they skated beautifully in the SP. And in the FS, they were the only pair besides Ashley and Tim who landed a 3-3-3 combo beautifully.
Click to expand...

You mean 3-2-2?
 
Yes, of course I did. :dbana: I'm losing it.

Lu/Mitrofanov did 3S-2T-2T; and Cain/Leduc did 3S-2T-2L. Thanks for catching that.:thank:
 
skylark said:
here you go. https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?78289-2019-US-Nationals-Video-Thread/page2

ETA: The links on that page aren't working. I think NBC deleted them "for copyright reasons" but now most are working again. You're better off to use the links I gave, above. Deanna's and Nate's is working again too At least for me.

Have you watched my favorite younger US Pair yet? Audrey Lu and Misha Mitrofanov. They were juniors just last year. They struggled a bit on the FS with the lift (really, it was a terrible night for lifts, until Ashley and Tim came through without even a wobble, and there was air in the arena again!) ... but they skated beautifully in the SP. And in the FS, they were the only pair besides Ashley and Tim who landed a 3-2-2 combo beautifully.

ETA: here's Audrey and Misha's SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rxlO810qeY
Click to expand...

Yes, I have watched Audrey & Misha and I like them too... They are rookies in senior circuit so they need some time to gather an experience. So no problem in that they had some problems with lifts - thhey have time to fix them)
 
If anyone is interested, the Pairs SP (4CC) pre-program starts in 19 minutes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDW1nftLmIo.

And then, of course, the competitition itself in about 40 min. Haven and Brandon will skate first, Tarah and Danny skate 3rd, and Ashley and Tim skate next to last (7th.)
 
Reflecting on US pairs showing at 4CC, I think we definitely have some things to celebrate. :dance3: :dance3: :dance3:

Ashley and Tim have accomplished so much, with these back-to-back outings at Nationals and 4CC. They established that their nationals showing wasn't just a fluke. They skated two nearly clean programs at 4CC, and perhaps as importantly (at least almost) .... they gave audiences a feeling of security, that they have the gravitas as a pair, and the confidence, to know that they can put out good programs, and entertain audiences to boot, with their gorgeous lines, lyrical qualities, and solid pairs elements.:points:

They earned 3 Season's Best scores at 4CC. This is a big deal. Also, their components were all in the 8's in the FS (66.35) and all 8's but one in SP (32.60). To me, this seems to reflect that the International judges have noticed their fine qualities. ETA: and their improvement.

Ashley and Tim underlined and estabished that they're the U.S. champions. However that plays out in 19-20 season, for now, going into Worlds, I think it's so great! It can only help them in their quest to finish in the Top 10 at Worlds for all the US pairs' benefit ... which they've said is their goal. Also, 4CC showed that they could stand up to the pressure of being US Champs and sort of the standard-bearers for US Pairs, at least for now. We should all hope that they can sustain this for Worlds! I think they've got a good chance. Every step along the way this season has added to their sense of being on the path they wanted, except for that huge blip of GS. Even that, they used to strengthen their bonds as a team.

After all the struggles we've been through with US Pairs in the last few years, this consistent showing and improvement is so great!:yahoo: :clap: :hap93:

Thoughts?
 
I want to give this its own "box."

On Ashley and Tim's FS at nationals, after aborted lifts and other mistakes among the pairs who went before, including the top contenders.

The minute they started, you're like, oh, they're gonna take it now. They pivoted the entire energy in the arena and just made a moment when really as spectators we needed it and I think the event was in desperate need of that performance so it was really nice to see them be able to do that.​

I'm quoting Jonathan Beyer here ... but his words express exactly how I felt.

Sitting in the fourth row, and seeing lifts come down and even more of the couples' lifts looking shaky right in front of me, I would say it quadrupled the effect of C/L's skate. At the very least. :party2:
 
skylark said:
I don't know; it's a mystery. :) Back in the 80s, pairs were required to do (only) a double twist in the SP and could do double, triple or quadruple in the long. Don't know why.
Click to expand...

The 80s were a transitional time for pair skating. Up until then it was common for pair teams to have partners close in height making triple twists very difficult. One of Rodnina/Zaitsev's (1980) advantages was the height difference that allowed them to have a triple twist. Interestingly enough Rodnina/Zaitsev did not have any throw elements. One of the ways Babilonia & Gardner (1979) and others hoped to defeat them was by performing throw jumps. Tai & Randy were among the first to include both a throw double axel and a throw triple salchow, but not a triple twist because of being of similar height. I do know they tried it from an article (Sports Illustrated, 1980) talking about her falling, losing some teeth and talking about a trip to the dentist to put them back in. Pair girls were tough even back then.

An excerpt - "Once, when they were kids, Randy slipped and Tai dropped out of a split twist. She landed on her face and the crash knocked out one front tooth and loosened six others; the only thing that kept them in place was her braces. The tooth went skittering away on the ice and, while Tai was suiting up to go to the hospital, another skater found it in a far corner. Tai presented it to the dentist; the tooth was hammered back into place and the braces were retightened. And a few days later, through hideously puffed lips, Tai said to Randy: "Lithen, leth try that thplit twi'th again until we're thure of it." Tai, too, is tough."

Cherkasova/Shakrai (1978) and Pestova/Leonova (1979) rose to prominence as the 1 1/2 pairs with tall men and very tiny, slight girls. In fact, Cherkasova/Shakrai has a quad twist before her growth spurt. Then came Gordeeva/Grinkov again with a quad twist in their early years. Along the way it became normal to have a height difference. Also 1980 Christina Riegel Andreas Nischwitz who were age 14 & 23.

In essence Ashley & Tim are a retro pair. Perhaps they should be given more credit for executing similar elements well because of their height difference making them more difficult.
 
I am very confident the US will qualify two teams for worlds in 2020. I am less confident that beating MTM-M is such a sure thing now. I think the potential is there and I know some US skating official made it sound like that was the goal - that th ey could compete and beat the Canadians and be in the top six. Entirely possible but they have to deal with 2 Chinese teams at least, 3 Russian teams, MtM M, Italy, Australia who could contend against the US, Korea, and of course the world gold faves the French, so there could be some challenges.
 
labgoat said:
The 80s were a transitional time for pair skating. Up until then it was common for pair teams to have partners close in height making triple twists very difficult. One of Rodnina/Zaitsev's (1980) advantages was the height difference that allowed them to have a triple twist. Interestingly enough Rodnina/Zaitsev did not have any throw elements. One of the ways Babilonia & Gardner (1979) and others hoped to defeat them was by performing throw jumps. Tai & Randy were among the first to include both a throw double axel and a throw triple salchow, but not a triple twist because of being of similar height. I do know they tried it from an article (Sports Illustrated, 1980) talking about her falling, losing some teeth and talking about a trip to the dentist to put them back in. Pair girls were tough even back then.

An excerpt - "Once, when they were kids, Randy slipped and Tai dropped out of a split twist. She landed on her face and the crash knocked out one front tooth and loosened six others; the only thing that kept them in place was her braces. The tooth went skittering away on the ice and, while Tai was suiting up to go to the hospital, another skater found it in a far corner. Tai presented it to the dentist; the tooth was hammered back into place and the braces were retightened. And a few days later, through hideously puffed lips, Tai said to Randy: "Lithen, leth try that thplit twi'th again until we're thure of it." Tai, too, is tough."

Cherkasova/Shakrai (1978) and Pestova/Leonova (1979) rose to prominence as the 1 1/2 paris with tall men and very tiny, slight girls. In fact, Cherkasova/Shakrai has a quad twist before her growth spurt. Then came Gordeeva/Grinkov again with a quad twist in their early years. Along the way it became normal to have a height difference. Also 1980 Christina Riegel Andreas Nischwitz who were age 14 & 23.

In essence Ashley & Tim are a retro pair. Perhaps they should be given more credit for executing similar elements well because of their height difference making them more difficult.
Click to expand...


Yes, they are! I wonder if we could make some mileage out of that? A Retro Pair. I like it.

A few months ago I was following youtube prompts and "discovered" the two Russian pairs with extreme height differences that you mentioned. What surprised me was that they did so many moves that I've before only associated with Gordeeva and Grinkov. That entry into the throw double axel, where he picks her up for one complete turn, then they go into the throw jump. And some of the lifts were identical to those G/G did ... but G/G did them much better. It made me think that those teams were part of the same Moscow school where G/G skated. It makes sense, too, because Katia has always talked about enjoying the camaraderie of other skaters, and that being an important part of her experience.

Somehow I'd always thought that G/G were the first ones who had such extreme differences, especially with Katia being so tiny and so young. Probably because I wasn't watching skating at all before G/G, but also because the American media made an even bigger deal of it. I even recall re-watching something after 1988 where Verne Lundquist or someone said that G/G had been criticized for their difference in age and size.

Which just goes to show. I've been thinking that Ashley and Tim could turn the tide again, make long lines and less height disparity cool again, and desirable in a pair.

Because it did get ridiculous. I heard Alexa telling the story about how she and Chris got together. Just before Chris's break-up with his (then) partner, Dalilah took Alexa on to work with her, but told her they'd have to look in Canada or another country for a partner, because Alexa was too tall for any of the American men. Alexa is 5'2" !

Interesting story about Tai and Randy. Were they among the first to develop throw 2Axel and throw 3Salchow? I wonder why Rodnina/Zaitsev didn't do it? Anyway, it was a good strategy.
 
skylark said:
Yes, they are! I wonder if we could make some mileage out of that? A Retro Pair. I like it.

A few months ago I was following youtube prompts and "discovered" the two Russian pairs with extreme height differences that you mentioned. What surprised me was that they did so many moves that I've before only associated with Gordeeva and Grinkov. That entry into the throw double axel, where he picks her up for one complete turn, then they go into the throw jump. And some of the lifts were identical to those G/G did ... but G/G did them much better. It made me think that those teams were part of the same Moscow school where G/G skated. It makes sense, too, because Katia has always talked about enjoying the camaraderie of other skaters, and that being an important part of her experience.

Somehow I'd always thought that G/G were the first ones who had such extreme differences, especially with Katia being so tiny and so young. Probably because I wasn't watching skating at all before G/G, but also because the American media made an even bigger deal of it. I even recall re-watching something after 1988 where Verne Lundquist or someone said that G/G had been criticized for their difference in age and size.

Which just goes to show. I've been thinking that Ashley and Tim could turn the tide again, make long lines and less height disparity cool again, and desirable in a pair.

Because it did get ridiculous. I heard Alexa telling the story about how she and Chris got together. Just before Chris's break-up with his (then) partner, Dalilah took Alexa on to work with her, but told her they'd have to look in Canada or another country for a partner, because Alexa was too tall for any of the American men. Alexa is 5'2" !

Interesting story about Tai and Randy. Were they among the first to develop throw 2Axel and throw 3Salchow? I wonder why Rodnina/Zaitsev didn't do it? Anyway, it was a good strategy.
Click to expand...

I don't believe Tai & Randy (doing throws at 15 & 17 years old here at 1976 US Nationals) were the first, I think it may have been Manuela Mager & Uwe Bewersdorf (shown here at 1980 Olympics , no idea what year. Tai & Randy both competed in singles and both finished 5th at US Nationals before concentrating solely on pairs.

Tai at Pacific Coast Championship in 1977

and a personal favorite exhibition from 1978
 
Skater Boy said:
I am very confident the US will qualify two teams for worlds in 2020. I am less confident that beating MTM-M is such a sure thing now. I think the potential is there and I know some US skating official made it sound like that was the goal - that th ey could compete and beat the Canadians and be in the top six. Entirely possible but they have to deal with 2 Chinese teams at least, 3 Russian teams, MtM M, Italy, Australia who could contend against the US, Korea, and of course the world gold faves the French, so there could be some challenges.
Click to expand...

Yes, I heard that too. On Ice Desk last week-end, they were using M-t/M as an example, saying that 2014 when they teamed up, there was much discussion that they'd never get better as a team ... but they did. And they were talking about this year specifically, how much improvement they've made together.

When you think of that .... Ashley and Tim have only been together since 2016, so two years less. Half that time. So it's remarkable how much progress they've made in that time. And what two more years might bring.

Was that skating official thinking at the time of that remark that it would be Alexa and Chris they hoped would compete at the level of M-t/M?
 
labgoat said:
In essence Ashley & Tim are a retro pair. Perhaps they should be given more credit for executing similar elements well because of their height difference making them more difficult.
Click to expand...

Another thing. In speaking of their working with Nina Mozer, Ashley specifically said that Nina helped them with the physics of elements, showing the different placement of Tim's hand during lifts, because of Ashley's "length."

I thought that was wonderful. To think of other coaches either not knowing that, or basically throwing up their hands and saying that if there's not height difference, it can't be done.

And I looked up Sui and Han's height difference. In Wiki, they're listed as 4'11" and 5'7", which is almost the same difference as between Ashley at 5'6" and Tim at 6'1". But the beginning of the S/H Wiki article was written a number of years ago. In the 2016 picture of Sui and Han, it didn't look like 8 inches difference in their height. It makes sense that she'd have grown.

And anyway, people who say Ashley's too tall compared to Tim are ignoring the example of several Chinese pairs. It's technique that makes the difference.

Honestly, I'd love to see someone like Charlie White create some spectacular variations on lifts for Ashley and Tim that would wow audiences ... and judges!
 
According to their ISU bio, C/L have a height difference of 18cm. Out of all teams on the GP this season, it's the second-smallest, but within the spread. The overall spread was 13, 18-32, 36, and 37cm (1-2 pairs with each difference, with one exception of 3 pairs).

I took a look at the height differences for pairs with a top 10 SB plus Y/Z (total 10 pairs). note: this is an arbitrary cutoff, just to get a better sense of the top teams.

18cm: Cain/LeDuc
19cm: Boikova/Kozlovskii, Yu/Zhang
20cm: James/Cipres, Sui/Han
21cm: Della Monica/Guarise, Peng/Jin
25cm: Zabiiako/Enbert
28cm: Tarasova/Morozov
30cm: Moore-Towers/Marinaro

So while C/L have the smallest height difference of this group, it's by so little (not even an inch) that it shouldn't be a significant factor.
Clearly, pairs can have success with both smaller and larger height differences, so it really just comes down to technique, practice, etc.
 
I'll miss Max's attitude and demeanor as a pairs skater ... but I think that happy calm will be great for the lucky students he coaches.

I hope he keeps posting his cartoons and other artwork.
 
I wrote a post about Alexa & Chris's funding issues, but it got moved to the Fan Fest section because I posted a link, which I didn't know wasn't allowed.

The issue of funding and how skaters can afford to stay in this sport is a real and relevant one, especially for US pair skaters who are adults and don't come from wealthy families. Many skaters take on side jobs to help make ends meet, but it's rather unusual to hear of higher level international skaters like the Knierims doing so. You don't want skaters to have to coach so much that it takes time and energy away from their own training. The Knierims don't have the same opportunity to participate in offseason shows like skaters in other disciplines do, even with an Olympic medal. The expense of flying back and forth to Germany for training this season (as well as flying in coaches from Germany to the US) must have been tremendous. I don't know how they even did it for a short period of time. They haven't been on a honeymoon yet, and I think it might help them mentally refresh if they at least got to go on a vacation this offseason.

US Figure Skating's criteria for funding is the same for every discipline, even though pairs is a different beast and results don't always tell the story. It was said that the Knierims have been trying to skate through a serious wrist injury, which looked very evident at Nationals. The hope is that USFS wouldn't be so rigid with their funding criteria in extenuating circumstances, especially since they do seem to provide a little additional financial assistance to skaters at random times. It seems unfortunate that a pair with a bronze medal and 4th place on this season's GP circuit that always has some of the highest international scores among US pairs might not receive any more funding than pairs who really struggled on the GP and don't really have international resumes.

The skaters themselves seem a bit shy about spreading the word about this situation, so if I can help shed additional light on this, I'm glad to do it. I love pair skating and I know how few high level pairs there are worldwide. Please consider checking out the Fan Fest portion of this site if you have a free moment. I didn't even know there was a Fan Fest section until recently. I'm sure many people feel reluctant about donating small amounts to skaters, thinking that their contribution wouldn't make a difference, but every little bit really helps and could possibly be the difference between a skater being able to train full-time or not.
 
^^^ Still my favorite US pairs team so I hope they get the funding they deserve.. if Chris's wrist heals well, they should make huge strides on the comeback road. They, along with Ashley & Tim and current competing US pairs including the up and coming Digerness/Neudecker pair will make for a strong US presence on the world stage... good luck to Ashley & Tim and here's to earning 2 spots for us next season.. we are going to need them!!

https://youtu.be/sJXiSJYStlk
 
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