It’s not official yet, but Russia tends to go by the results and she did finish behind both Alina and Stanislava. Her creditials just aren’t good enough to put her before Stanislava yet. Plus it’s clear last year that’s the federation really likes Stanislava, so I’d say it all but decided.
2018-2019 Russian Nationals Ladies FS
- Thread starter Mohacz
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It’s not official yet, but Russia tends to go by the results and she did finish behind both Alina and Stanislava. Her creditials just aren’t good enough to put her before Stanislava yet. Plus it’s clear last year that’s the federation really likes Stanislava, so I’d say it all but decided.
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- Feb 25, 2014
I really hope Mishin fights for Sofia. She's a great competitor.
I don't think Liza will show up at Euros unless RusFed forces her to compete to earn the spot for Worlds, and i don't think Medvedeva should take Sofia's place (and she finished behind here)
But being sublime isn't enough, fortunately. Because i think that someone who put on the table a layout as difficult as Trusova's should win. Alena's elements are way easier.
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- Feb 14, 2018
What I took away from RusNats wasn’t drama, but the difference between depth and breadth of talent. I have never bought the mythos that Russia has the former, as I always felt it was more the latter, and this competition solidified it for me.
There is an exceptional breadth of talent in Russian ladies — at the junior level, there are consistently 2-4 future stars waiting to break out, several more just a rung below that, and then even more talent at lower ages. There is not depth, as at the senior level, it seems one or two ladies will have an invincible season for a year and then disappear, clearing the way for one of the future stars in juniors to peak in her first senior season and win every medal she can before being replaced herself. And repeat. Depth, to me, is seniors and juniors of equal talent repeatedly vying for spots and not having just one (or if you’re Medvedeva, two) strong seasons before the jumps become laboured and inconsistent and everyone’s attention moves to someone in juniors who’s upping the technical arms race or has some It Factour. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Medvedeva had two strong seasons (three if you want to count her final junior year), but by the second half of the 16-17 season, the cracks were visible. Look at her WC17 free skate and the way she uses her upper body to push through the turns of her step sequence, especially the loop. See how the same issue is now occurring with Zagitova. There’s absolutely zero speed, as the basic skating skills haven’t been given enough attention, and the turns are literally slowing them down. Compare with Medvedeva’s loop in her step sequence here — much, much better. Her upper body isn’t being whipped around to drag her blade through the turn and she doesn’t come to a dead stop. And then there are the jumps — which Medvedeva was struggling with in the second half of the 16-17 season and outright not landing by 17-18 (she didn’t have two clean skates until the Olympics). Zagitova has had, what, two clean free skates this season? Nebelhorn and Japan Open? She wasn’t free from URs last season, but they’ve become especially noticeable this season, as it doesn’t seem her jump technique works well with her taller body. What once looked effortless now seems like a struggle — she’s visibly fighting for the jumps, and it’s not something I take joy in noticing, as I adored her skating. But it’s clear that, technically, she’s struggling, and her basic skating skills are unrefined, the transitions in and out of jumps are not being done cleanly or effortlessly, etc. Much like Medvedeva in past seasons... it all looks like a struggle.
The juniors are very good, at least technically, but with the exception of Kostornaia, everything suggests the pattern is set to repeat: dominance for a year or two, then a quiet exit. Again, the skating skills are not being trained, and Trusova and Shcherbakova have the same suboptimal posture issues that Zagitova is often critiqued for — which isn’t an aesthetic complaint but a technical one, as it causes them to need more crossovers for speed. Right now, they’re small and rotate fast, but Zagitova’s rotational speed dropped from her peak as a junior at the start of her senior season (one reason why she was prone to URs), and there are no guarantees the same won’t happen again. Their skating looks more powerful and effortless than some of the seniors’, but their centres of gravity haven’t dropped and the turns aren’t yet a struggle. And how long will they keep their jumps? I don’t know. I hesitate to say Zagitova has truly “kept” hers, given that this is a transitional season and her face conveys nothing but uncertainty before each jumping pass. If that’s good enough for you, though, then sure, the juniors will probably keep their jumps, with the quads — who knows? But by the time they’re starting to show signs of struggle, the next “3A” team will be waiting to usurp them, armed with quads and 3As and who knows what else.
That’s what I mean by breadth: there are a sufficient number of talented skaters likely to peak at the right time that Russia can always choose a strong women’s team, as the law of large numbers pretty much guarantees someone is having a season in which they’re dominant. On the other hand, Japan doesn’t have as many stars and future stars, but when the weakest links in seniors are Wakaba and Mai... that’s actual depth of talent. It’s not just that one skater is having a winning season only to be replaced by a younger model — we see the same girls for more than a year or two, they grow into women, their skating skills don’t decline, etc. There isn’t always a breakout star on a hot streak every season in Japan, but even their fifth-ranked skater has stronger basic technique (both in jumps and in skating skills) than most of the Russian girls. You can mix and match the final group of Japanese ladies and create a stellar 4CC and WC team no matter what. You can’t say the same of the top six Russian seniors.
Perhaps this is why I like Liza so much — you’re not dead at 21. But nationals were rather illuminating in some other respects. Those who finished below 7th — how many of them do you think will ever go to Euros or Worlds? Maybe Tarakanova. Gubanova is buried. Konstantinova at least has superior skating skills, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Medvedeva has a resurgence next year. But Konstantinova isn’t as strong as Mai Mihara (and I’m not really a fan of Mai’s — she does nothing for me), blah blah blah 3A is coming, etc. We’ve done this before: Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, etc. You can argue special pleading (Lipnitskaya had specific troubles, Sotnikova was plagued by injury), but look how quickly they were replaced by Radionova and Elizaveta, who were then replaced themselves. The cycle continues.
Breadth versus depth. There’s a difference. And I am not optimistic about the Russian ladies developing depth of talent in seniors, just more one-season wonders.
There is an exceptional breadth of talent in Russian ladies — at the junior level, there are consistently 2-4 future stars waiting to break out, several more just a rung below that, and then even more talent at lower ages. There is not depth, as at the senior level, it seems one or two ladies will have an invincible season for a year and then disappear, clearing the way for one of the future stars in juniors to peak in her first senior season and win every medal she can before being replaced herself. And repeat. Depth, to me, is seniors and juniors of equal talent repeatedly vying for spots and not having just one (or if you’re Medvedeva, two) strong seasons before the jumps become laboured and inconsistent and everyone’s attention moves to someone in juniors who’s upping the technical arms race or has some It Factour. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Medvedeva had two strong seasons (three if you want to count her final junior year), but by the second half of the 16-17 season, the cracks were visible. Look at her WC17 free skate and the way she uses her upper body to push through the turns of her step sequence, especially the loop. See how the same issue is now occurring with Zagitova. There’s absolutely zero speed, as the basic skating skills haven’t been given enough attention, and the turns are literally slowing them down. Compare with Medvedeva’s loop in her step sequence here — much, much better. Her upper body isn’t being whipped around to drag her blade through the turn and she doesn’t come to a dead stop. And then there are the jumps — which Medvedeva was struggling with in the second half of the 16-17 season and outright not landing by 17-18 (she didn’t have two clean skates until the Olympics). Zagitova has had, what, two clean free skates this season? Nebelhorn and Japan Open? She wasn’t free from URs last season, but they’ve become especially noticeable this season, as it doesn’t seem her jump technique works well with her taller body. What once looked effortless now seems like a struggle — she’s visibly fighting for the jumps, and it’s not something I take joy in noticing, as I adored her skating. But it’s clear that, technically, she’s struggling, and her basic skating skills are unrefined, the transitions in and out of jumps are not being done cleanly or effortlessly, etc. Much like Medvedeva in past seasons... it all looks like a struggle.
The juniors are very good, at least technically, but with the exception of Kostornaia, everything suggests the pattern is set to repeat: dominance for a year or two, then a quiet exit. Again, the skating skills are not being trained, and Trusova and Shcherbakova have the same suboptimal posture issues that Zagitova is often critiqued for — which isn’t an aesthetic complaint but a technical one, as it causes them to need more crossovers for speed. Right now, they’re small and rotate fast, but Zagitova’s rotational speed dropped from her peak as a junior at the start of her senior season (one reason why she was prone to URs), and there are no guarantees the same won’t happen again. Their skating looks more powerful and effortless than some of the seniors’, but their centres of gravity haven’t dropped and the turns aren’t yet a struggle. And how long will they keep their jumps? I don’t know. I hesitate to say Zagitova has truly “kept” hers, given that this is a transitional season and her face conveys nothing but uncertainty before each jumping pass. If that’s good enough for you, though, then sure, the juniors will probably keep their jumps, with the quads — who knows? But by the time they’re starting to show signs of struggle, the next “3A” team will be waiting to usurp them, armed with quads and 3As and who knows what else.
That’s what I mean by breadth: there are a sufficient number of talented skaters likely to peak at the right time that Russia can always choose a strong women’s team, as the law of large numbers pretty much guarantees someone is having a season in which they’re dominant. On the other hand, Japan doesn’t have as many stars and future stars, but when the weakest links in seniors are Wakaba and Mai... that’s actual depth of talent. It’s not just that one skater is having a winning season only to be replaced by a younger model — we see the same girls for more than a year or two, they grow into women, their skating skills don’t decline, etc. There isn’t always a breakout star on a hot streak every season in Japan, but even their fifth-ranked skater has stronger basic technique (both in jumps and in skating skills) than most of the Russian girls. You can mix and match the final group of Japanese ladies and create a stellar 4CC and WC team no matter what. You can’t say the same of the top six Russian seniors.
Perhaps this is why I like Liza so much — you’re not dead at 21. But nationals were rather illuminating in some other respects. Those who finished below 7th — how many of them do you think will ever go to Euros or Worlds? Maybe Tarakanova. Gubanova is buried. Konstantinova at least has superior skating skills, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Medvedeva has a resurgence next year. But Konstantinova isn’t as strong as Mai Mihara (and I’m not really a fan of Mai’s — she does nothing for me), blah blah blah 3A is coming, etc. We’ve done this before: Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, etc. You can argue special pleading (Lipnitskaya had specific troubles, Sotnikova was plagued by injury), but look how quickly they were replaced by Radionova and Elizaveta, who were then replaced themselves. The cycle continues.
Breadth versus depth. There’s a difference. And I am not optimistic about the Russian ladies developing depth of talent in seniors, just more one-season wonders.
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^thats what you took from today 
Excellent post and well-written per usual.
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- Feb 14, 2018
Thank you! I figured we’d agree, though.
We could have a dialogue about our specific areas of disagreement if you provide a substantive response. I like many of these skaters, including Zagitova — but I also have eyes. Again, take the loop turn from the step sequence. There’s no way you actually pulled up videos and compared given how quickly you responded, so let me grab some links:^thats what you took from today
Medvedeva WC17 FS.
Zagitova’s FS.
Medvedeva’s FS.
Look at the loop turn in Medvedeva’s WC17 skate and Zagitova’s skate at RusNats. Notice the utter lack of speed exiting the turn. Pay attention to their arm movements — not as choreography, but as a method of gaining speed and completing turns, almost as if they’re pulling forward on an invisible rope.
Compare Zagitova’s step sequence at the OWG. Notice how her upper body is much “quieter” and her arms aren’t fully extended in the direction of travel? Her edgework isn’t the most refined, in part due to her age, but she isn’t throwing her upper body forward and sideways to finish turns and steps. Consequently, her skating looks more effortless. Compare Shcherbakova and Trusova to Zagitova at nationals — do they resemble Olympics Zagitova or nationals Zagitova? Medvedeva in 2017 or Medvedeva now? Which one does the balance of probabilities suggest they’ll resemble in another year or two?
In saying I see more breadth than depth in Russia, I’m not denying the talents of any of the skaters. If you disagree with me, that’s fine. I’m open to an actual debate, but if you just want to close your eyes and cover your ears, that’s fine by me. I don’t enjoy watching skaters of phenomenal talent deteriorate and have their mistakes be pushed aside because “next year 3A will move up and three spots,” etc. Zagitova is one of my favourite skaters — watching her struggle brings me no joy.
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I wasn’t agreeing or disagreeing. My thoughts were just of a completely different nature so I figured I’d use googley eyes at your rather in depth post. You’re far deeper than I am today. I just enjoyed the show. I’m not sure how often we’ll see so many performances in one event deserving of scores over 200 so I guess I’m mostly celebrating what I saw today.
I think Trusova is the real deal too and skaters like Tarakanova and Gubanova have the goods to last as long as any other skater from anywhere else. Sofia too!! And others :hap85:
Don’t blame the ladies though for a system that sees your country first and your talent second. There just isn’t room for everyone and so they are forced into this bloodbath and have to push the limits and win at all costs.
ETA:
Major highlight for me: Tarakona entry and especially the exit from her Loop
I think people often miss that these girls do the simple stuff very well and with purpose too.
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- Dec 18, 2014
Just stay well, our mental health
Of course if someone is better at one point of time, he/she will replace the someone else at that point of time. I mean, i cant even put a resonable comment on that, except the fact that this is how competitions works. Like from the begining till the end of the time.It seems that the Russian coaches train the girls to be in their prime time at their age of 14-16. Technical abilities based on their kid's body which is gone after that age and not much left ever after.
I would stop this if I was in their shoes. But of course it creates gold medals, fame and a lots of frustrated, cheated 20 years old "former competitors" (they do NOT care about them anymore).
The line getting long now after Leonova, Lipnitskaya, Radionova, Sotnikova, Pogorilaya, Sotskova, even Medvedeva, soon Zagitova (based on this and the World last year when she was 16) . It seems that only Tuktamysheva is able to get some resurrection after 4 years (but she has Mishin behind her). It is NOT good for the sport!
The very young team of Russia last Olympic this year placed 5th, 7th,16th in the Russian National at the same calendar year. Wonder kids going nowhere after 2 maximum 3 seasons. Whose interest is this??
I would stop this if I was in their shoes. But of course it creates gold medals, fame and a lots of frustrated, cheated 20 years old "former competitors" (they do NOT care about them anymore).
The line getting long now after Leonova, Lipnitskaya, Radionova, Sotnikova, Pogorilaya, Sotskova, even Medvedeva, soon Zagitova (based on this and the World last year when she was 16) . It seems that only Tuktamysheva is able to get some resurrection after 4 years (but she has Mishin behind her). It is NOT good for the sport!
The very young team of Russia last Olympic this year placed 5th, 7th,16th in the Russian National at the same calendar year. Wonder kids going nowhere after 2 maximum 3 seasons. Whose interest is this??
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- Jan 12, 2018
I stopped reading at this point...
Longevity is not the same thing as depth at all. Japanese skaters have more longevity obviously. I agree that Russian female skaters of late tend to have shorter career spans; probably has to do with the overall lower emphasis on long-lasting techniques, this is true and not a good thing. I agree that Med/Zag are not as strong as they were before.
But I think it is extremely inaccurate to say that Russia does not have immense depth in ladies right now. Low average skater longevity does not necessarily mean low depth in field, it is a major logical fallacy to assume so and your whole post is predicated on this. International depth is probably best told by the GP series (worlds each country only sends 3 each), so more of the international senior depth is illustrated. In this year's senior grand prix series results, Russia had 5 ladies in the top 10; Japan had 4. In 2017, Russia had 5 in the top 10, Japan had 3. In 2016, Russia had 5 in the top 10, and Japan had 3. How does this illustrate that Japan has more depth? DESPITE the short career lifespan of its ladies, Russia STILL manages to have the most depth in the ladies fields. Based on your definition, great depth does not imply breadth but great breadth implies depth (if I were to go extremely mathematical on you, use the pigeonhole principle LOL), and Russia's breadth is so strong (with large numbers) that it's depth isn't bad either and still the strongest of any country. The only reason why it *appears* Russia has less depth is that its top 1 or top 2 are MUCH better than the rest at times (at least this was the case during Evgenia's time) so it gave the impression of less competition at the top. But if you compare the fifth place lady side by side, Russia's would not necessarily be weaker. In the GP series, that was Evgenia Medvedeva and Mako Yamashita, respectively.
Also, Wakaba and Mai are not Japan's weakest links in seniors right now. How about Yura Matsuda etc.?
I haven't seen much discussion about depth by country but I think Russia has the strongest depth right now in Senior Ladies, Senior Pairs, Junior Ladies, Junior Dance, and Junior Pairs. US probably takes Senior Ice Dance. The other two categories have no clear winner.
By the way Russian ladies skating is far from its peak, with this season being an off year in seniors obviously despite having 5 of 10 top ladies. If you wan't to see what's to come, look at the Junior Grand Prix results (from any discipline, really). The best has yet to come.
Why? She was the only one on the World Podium after the Slutskaya, Butyrskaya era (only once in 2012.) from Russia older than 20. She never even could get close to it ever after, while she is still competing getting 12th here yesterday.
After watching this technically high level competition one thing stucked into my mind and I have to reiterate it:
now I can understand even more HOW GORGEOUS and UNIQUE Yu-Na Kim was......
She was 20 when skated like THAT in Vancouver, 24 when skated like THAT in Sochi while Medvedeva is 19 skating like THIS with the same coach...
Basic skills are VERY difficult to re-learn!
now I can understand even more HOW GORGEOUS and UNIQUE Yu-Na Kim was......
She was 20 when skated like THAT in Vancouver, 24 when skated like THAT in Sochi while Medvedeva is 19 skating like THIS with the same coach...
Basic skills are VERY difficult to re-learn!
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- Oct 21, 2017
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After watching the women competition i have a few thoughts: like the people wrote Liza off a two-three years ago, people are now running to write Medvedeva off. I bet she will come back (if the skating gods keep bad injuries from her). She has the grit, the determination to change the weakest parts of her skating and she has the talent and the help of Orser, a coach used to teach adult skaters.
For Zagitova it will depends greatly on her team, if they will take time to asses what she needs as an adult skater and will start to invest in that. She has bad posture, one of the worst in the elite field and it will show more and more if not corrected. But her team will need to pay attention and not be just happy that she still gets results. If she keeps like that she will be passed over by some other teenager wunder-baby in one-two years. Despite her winning a lot this year I am eyeing her skating with suspicion, i see now the signs there were in Medvedeva skating, and we see where Medvedeva is now. However she is also a very talented young lady, so if she works hard to change the bad habits and to evolve, to get a better choreography (man those 1 second postures annoys me and make her skating sometime very hard to watch) she can stay in higher ranks.
I like a lot of what i see in the in the top 3 juniors. But i will keep my enthusiasm in check till they are 18 and still able to do the big tricks. I am not enamored in one-year champions type of senior skaters: i like to see skaters over the year, see them improve, evolve, getting better. They also need more maturity - what is now cute, i bet it will piss off a lot of you here in forum when they will really start to win at the senior ranks. I saw THAT too oft here, including with Adelina, which a lot loved on this forum. Till she got to be a senior.
Both Sofia and Stanislava are team players. In a good day and a weak field they might run with a medal, but they are not the peak of the skating world (yet, they might get there, who knows?).
Liza - i like her a lot, her power, her determination, but don't like her programs. I am happy to see her on her way up, but i pray that she will get next years better choreography and better programs.
For Zagitova it will depends greatly on her team, if they will take time to asses what she needs as an adult skater and will start to invest in that. She has bad posture, one of the worst in the elite field and it will show more and more if not corrected. But her team will need to pay attention and not be just happy that she still gets results. If she keeps like that she will be passed over by some other teenager wunder-baby in one-two years. Despite her winning a lot this year I am eyeing her skating with suspicion, i see now the signs there were in Medvedeva skating, and we see where Medvedeva is now. However she is also a very talented young lady, so if she works hard to change the bad habits and to evolve, to get a better choreography (man those 1 second postures annoys me and make her skating sometime very hard to watch) she can stay in higher ranks.
I like a lot of what i see in the in the top 3 juniors. But i will keep my enthusiasm in check till they are 18 and still able to do the big tricks. I am not enamored in one-year champions type of senior skaters: i like to see skaters over the year, see them improve, evolve, getting better. They also need more maturity - what is now cute, i bet it will piss off a lot of you here in forum when they will really start to win at the senior ranks. I saw THAT too oft here, including with Adelina, which a lot loved on this forum. Till she got to be a senior.
Both Sofia and Stanislava are team players. In a good day and a weak field they might run with a medal, but they are not the peak of the skating world (yet, they might get there, who knows?).
Liza - i like her a lot, her power, her determination, but don't like her programs. I am happy to see her on her way up, but i pray that she will get next years better choreography and better programs.
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- Aug 25, 2017
Liza won't be ready then?
And I do wish Zhenya had a chance at Winter Universiade but I guess I do understand why not
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