2018-2019 Russian Nationals Ladies FS

[vorravorra]

Perhaps this is why I like Liza so much — you’re not dead at 21. But nationals were rather illuminating in some other respects. Those who finished below 7th — how many of them do you think will ever go to Euros or Worlds? Maybe Tarakanova. Konstantinova at least has superior skating skills, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Medvedeva has a resurgence next year. But Konstantinova isn’t as strong as Mai Mihara (and I’m not really a fan of Mai’s — she does nothing for me), blah blah blah 3A is coming, etc. We’ve done this before: Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, etc. You can argue special pleading (Lipnitskaya had specific troubles, Sotnikova was plagued by injury), but look how quickly they were replaced by Radionova and Elizaveta, who were then replaced themselves. The cycle continues.

Breadth versus depth. There’s a difference. And I am not optimistic about the Russian ladies developing depth of talent in seniors, just more one-season wonders.

Poor Gubanova switches to Buyanova for clout precisely in the season when Buyanova decides she can't compete with Eteri in this field and will concentrate on the men. It just shows that switching coaches for politicking doesn't always pay. With her previous coach she would at least have had better programs.

 

[kurtstefan]

I think its only a russian problem, because they have too much talents and have the choice to force only the best. Many of frustrated skaters should change the nation to get thec chance for participating great events. I´m afraid that Medvedeva will suffer the same fate like Lipnitskaia. Leaving ore leaving not the Tuberitze Team doesn´t matter at all

 

[kurtstefan]

For all who didn´t lok closely here the link https://youtu.be/_MaLR46xb6Q

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

For all who didn´t lok closely here the link https://youtu.be/_MaLR46xb6Q

That’s not an under rotation though. Both jumps were fine.

 

[caballe]

What I took away from RusNats wasn’t drama, but the difference between depth and breadth of talent. I have never bought the mythos that Russia has the former, as I always felt it was more the latter, and this competition solidified it for me.

There is an exceptional breadth of talent in Russian ladies — at the junior level, there are consistently 2-4 future stars waiting to break out, several more just a rung below that, and then even more talent at lower ages. There is not depth, as at the senior level, it seems one or two ladies will have an invincible season for a year and then disappear, clearing the way for one of the future stars in juniors to peak in her first senior season and win every medal she can before being replaced herself. And repeat. Depth, to me, is seniors and juniors of equal talent repeatedly vying for spots and not having just one (or if you’re Medvedeva, two) strong seasons before the jumps become laboured and inconsistent and everyone’s attention moves to someone in juniors who’s upping the technical arms race or has some It Factour. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Medvedeva had two strong seasons (three if you want to count her final junior year), but by the second half of the 16-17 season, the cracks were visible. Look at her WC17 free skate and the way she uses her upper body to push through the turns of her step sequence, especially the loop. See how the same issue is now occurring with Zagitova. There’s absolutely zero speed, as the basic skating skills haven’t been given enough attention, and the turns are literally slowing them down. Compare with Medvedeva’s loop in her step sequence here — much, much better. Her upper body isn’t being whipped around to drag her blade through the turn and she doesn’t come to a dead stop. And then there are the jumps — which Medvedeva was struggling with in the second half of the 16-17 season and outright not landing by 17-18 (she didn’t have two clean skates until the Olympics). Zagitova has had, what, two clean free skates this season? Nebelhorn and Japan Open? She wasn’t free from URs last season, but they’ve become especially noticeable this season, as it doesn’t seem her jump technique works well with her taller body. What once looked effortless now seems like a struggle — she’s visibly fighting for the jumps, and it’s not something I take joy in noticing, as I adored her skating. But it’s clear that, technically, she’s struggling, and her basic skating skills are unrefined, the transitions in and out of jumps are not being done cleanly or effortlessly, etc. Much like Medvedeva in past seasons... it all looks like a struggle.

The juniors are very good, at least technically, but with the exception of Kostornaia, everything suggests the pattern is set to repeat: dominance for a year or two, then a quiet exit. Again, the skating skills are not being trained, and Trusova and Shcherbakova have the same suboptimal posture issues that Zagitova is often critiqued for — which isn’t an aesthetic complaint but a technical one, as it causes them to need more crossovers for speed. Right now, they’re small and rotate fast, but Zagitova’s rotational speed dropped from her peak as a junior at the start of her senior season (one reason why she was prone to URs), and there are no guarantees the same won’t happen again. Their skating looks more powerful and effortless than some of the seniors’, but their centres of gravity haven’t dropped and the turns aren’t yet a struggle. And how long will they keep their jumps? I don’t know. I hesitate to say Zagitova has truly “kept” hers, given that this is a transitional season and her face conveys nothing but uncertainty before each jumping pass. If that’s good enough for you, though, then sure, the juniors will probably keep their jumps, with the quads — who knows? But by the time they’re starting to show signs of struggle, the next “3A” team will be waiting to usurp them, armed with quads and 3As and who knows what else.

That’s what I mean by breadth: there are a sufficient number of talented skaters likely to peak at the right time that Russia can always choose a strong women’s team, as the law of large numbers pretty much guarantees someone is having a season in which they’re dominant. On the other hand, Japan doesn’t have as many stars and future stars, but when the weakest links in seniors are Wakaba and Mai... that’s actual depth of talent. It’s not just that one skater is having a winning season only to be replaced by a younger model — we see the same girls for more than a year or two, they grow into women, their skating skills don’t decline, etc. There isn’t always a breakout star on a hot streak every season in Japan, but even their fifth-ranked skater has stronger basic technique (both in jumps and in skating skills) than most of the Russian girls. You can mix and match the final group of Japanese ladies and create a stellar 4CC and WC team no matter what. You can’t say the same of the top six Russian seniors.

Perhaps this is why I like Liza so much — you’re not dead at 21. But nationals were rather illuminating in some other respects. Those who finished below 7th — how many of them do you think will ever go to Euros or Worlds? Maybe Tarakanova. Gubanova is buried. Konstantinova at least has superior skating skills, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Medvedeva has a resurgence next year. But Konstantinova isn’t as strong as Mai Mihara (and I’m not really a fan of Mai’s — she does nothing for me), blah blah blah 3A is coming, etc. We’ve done this before: Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, etc. You can argue special pleading (Lipnitskaya had specific troubles, Sotnikova was plagued by injury), but look how quickly they were replaced by Radionova and Elizaveta, who were then replaced themselves. The cycle continues.

Breadth versus depth. There’s a difference. And I am not optimistic about the Russian ladies developing depth of talent in seniors, just more one-season wonders.

There isn't just a "Breadth" of talent in Russia just because whatever the reason you think there's so many talented russian female skaters there. It's the competitive environment itself that encourages these girls to skate to their maximum potential and also to develop as early as possible to compete with others. Your basic thesis is that longevity is better than a breakout season, but is it? Satoko Miyahara or Tuktamysheva will never be Olympic Champions. Alina is. She's doing everything she can to keep it going, despite her body growing rapidly, but I'm sure she wouldn't trade that gold for an eternity of careers. Thansk to the "Breath" you keep talking about, we also get to see see marvelous skating like we saw from Shcherbakova. You talk as if if someone is replaced by a younger skater, that's a bad thing. If that skater jumps better, is more talented, more consistent, then not only is that reasonable, but that is the only fair option. In other words, just for the sake of there being a "depth" (which I think is a deceptive terminology by the way) the federation shouldn't just say "You are talented but we are not gonna let you win because we already have a star and we want her to have a long career". If the senior skater struggles and gives up, it's on them (Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya). The ones that can will still fight through and see what they can. It's a sport. Not a star-making simulation.

I also don't like how you make a generalization about the climate of Russian Ladies skating, and conveniently make an exception for Kostornaia who is one of the stars. If she defies your thesis, then maybe it's your thesis that needs to be reconsidered.

 

[rachno2]

^^^^ I think it just comes down to a fundamental and irreconcilable difference in viewing philosophies. For me, I would rather become invested in a group of skaters and watch them develop individually both technically and artistically, go through career highs and lows, and challenge each other over the years, than watch whoever is the most technically consistent for 1-2 seasons, especially if I find the artistry lacking. Even Kostornaia, who has almost all the qualities I admire in a skater, has not fully won me over as a fan for the simple fact that I have only “known” her for two seasons. I admit that this is unfair on my part.

As this is a sport, and a nation-based one at that, I completely understand why base value, results, and consistency are favored by a lot of viewers over the development of long-term, well-rounded skaters. Nor do I think one philosophy is inherently better than the other. But since they are so fundamentally different, I think it is hard for either side to understand the other’s point of view.

There are other factors at stake, of course, like some viewers’ fears about Eteri’s technique and the ethical debate over quads, but I’m not knowledgeable enough to have a real opinion about those things tbh.

 

[Skater Boy]

Well these results in the end don't help Russia at all. Because the eligible skaters will have lost confidence. Liza is ill. Alina looks questinable and very vulnerable. Puberty has struck. Evgenia gives faint hope of recovering faded glory but is too iffy, Maria is UR queen and seems gone for this season, Yay for the juniors but again they too are vulnerable too puberty. Alina needed to show it. THe Japanese ladies must be savouring this hot mess and that hte senior Russians look like puberty has struck - Evgenia (who seems finished for the season and Alina. Now who do they send to Euros and Worlds. My guess Liza and Alina because juniors aren't eligible but they could be vulnerable even to losing three spots - remember last year they hung on w\by the skin of their teeth. Some wonderful skating by the juniors though Trusova seems a bit "tired". Puberty seems to be the key.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Well these results in the end don't help Russia at all. Because the eligible skaters will have lost confidence. Liza is ill. Alina looks questinable and very vulnerable. Puberty has struck. Evgenia gives faint hope of recovering faded glory but is too iffy, Maria is UR queen and seems gone for this season, Yay for the juniors but again they too are vulnerable too puberty. Alina needed to show it. THe Japanese ladies must be savouring this hot mess and that hte senior Russians look like puberty has struck - Evgenia (who seems finished for the season and Alina. Now who do they send to Euros and Worlds. My guess Liza and Alina because juniors aren't eligible but they could be vulnerable even to losing three spots - remember last year they hung on w\by the skin of their teeth. Some wonderful skating by the juniors though Trusova seems a bit "tired". Puberty seems to be the key.

I think you underestimate these ladies :roll5:

 

[Skater Boy]

Well I hope Sam you are right. It just seems that they aren't too consistent. I like that Leonova is still fighting and I really hope we see a refined Evgenia come back but oh my she and Alina aren't even on the podium. Most likely none of the top three will go to senior worlds right? None of the faves did well here - Alina, Maria, Sam., Evgenia and ET didn't even skate. Is it possible Japan could own the podium and earn a sweep? Or will one of the Russians break the stranglehold?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

^^^^ I think it just comes down to a fundamental and irreconcilable difference in viewing philosophies. For me, I would rather become invested in a group of skaters and watch them develop individually both technically and artistically, go through career highs and lows, and challenge each other over the years, than watch whoever is the most technically consistent for 1-2 seasons, especially if I find the artistry lacking. Even Kostornaia, who has almost all the qualities I admire in a skater, has not fully won me over as a fan for the simple fact that I have only “known” her for two seasons. I admit that this is unfair on my part.

As this is a sport, and a nation-based one at that, I completely understand why base value, results, and consistency are favored by a lot of viewers over the development of long-term, well-rounded skaters. Nor do I think one philosophy is inherently better than the other. But since they are so fundamentally different, I think it is hard for either side to understand the other’s point of view.

There are other factors at stake, of course, like some viewers’ fears about Eteri’s technique and the ethical debate over quads, but I’m not knowledgeable enough to have a real opinion about those things tbh.

Figure Skating as a sport is a competition based thing. It is not a persona based one. You should root for a good performance, not just for a person/skater behind it. (It is performance which matters, not the persona behind it). I mean that is what general audience do. So, i really don't get the point of discussing if one skater should be 'replaced' by someone else, when that is a fundamental premise for any competition to exist as what it is You can of course prefer certain skaters and rooting for them and think they are the best in the world (which they maybe are), but that has nothing to do with a figure skating as a competition. There, the winners will be the ones who competed the best at that exact competition, and by statistic it will be different skaters most likely. Competition as a thing would not exist if that one skater (the likeable and 'best' one) will win it all the time

 

[Ulrica]

Figure Skating as a sport is a competition based thing. It is not a persona based one. You should root for a good performance, not just for a person/skater behind it. (It is performance which matters, not the persona behind it). I mean that is what general audience do. So, i really don't get the point of discussing if one skater should be 'replaced' by someone else, when that is a fundamental premise for any competition to exist as what it is You can of course prefer certain skaters and rooting for them and think they are the best in the world (which they maybe are), but that has nothing to do with a figure skating as a competition. There, the winners will be the ones who competed the best at that exact competition, and by statistic it will be different skaters most likely. Competition as a thing would not exist if that one skater (the likeable and 'best' one) will win it all the time

That's very dehumanizing.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

That's very dehumanizing.

It's actually opposite of it i think. Take Pyeongchang as an example. If you call it Zhenya vs Alina thing that would be dehumanizing, but i would call it Zhenya's skating performance at Olympics 2018 vs Alina's skating performance at Olympic 2018. Cause their personas are a lot more than that one competition and they are a lot more than skaters. E: I mean, competition how i defined it maybe looks like that. But keep in mind that competitions are made in first place for the public/audience to watch them (not for the skaters themselves). And luckily we dont have anymore a Gladiators game, but a tennis match. But in its core, the main purpose of those is the same, to entertain the public.

 

[rachno2]

Figure Skating as a sport is a competition based thing. It is not a persona based one. You should root for a good performance, not just for a person/skater behind it. (It is performance which matters, not the persona behind it). I mean that is what general audience do. So, i really don't get the point of discussing if one skater should be 'replaced' by someone else, when that is a fundamental premise for any competition to exist as what it is You can of course prefer certain skaters and rooting for them and think they are the best in the world (which they maybe are), but that has nothing to do with a figure skating as a competition. There, the winners will be the ones who competed the best at that exact competition, and by statistic it will be different skaters most likely. Competition as a thing would not exist if that one skater (the likeable and 'best' one) will win it all the time

I get it, really I do. And I agree that performance matters more than persona. It’s just that the performances I personally prefer don’t usually come from technically consistent wunderkinds with (in my opinion) underdeveloped skating skills and immature performance quality. That is through no fault of their own; they are juniors/first-year seniors, after all, and still have room to develop. But I want to watch that development, not see them peak at 15 with technically sound performances and then disappear when they could be (again, in my opinion) even better and more complete skaters in their 20s. It’s entirely subjective, and I don’t think I’m superior for preferring older skaters over younger skaters, unlike some of the more obnoxious users here (not you).

It is interesting to me, though, how in all other disciplines being “juniorish” is an accepted quality among most of the younger skaters, but in the ladies we are supposed to see them as on the same level of performance quality as the older seniors because their tech is as good or better. You can be more advanced technically and have juniorish presentation skills. The one doesn’t negate the other.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I get it, really I do. And I agree that performance matters more than persona. It’s just that the performances I personally prefer don’t usually come from technically consistent wunderkinds with (in my opinion) underdeveloped skating skills and immature performance quality. That is through no fault of their own; they are juniors/first-year seniors, after all, and still have room to develop. But I want to watch that development, not see them peak at 15 with technically sound performances and then disappear when they could be (again, in my opinion) even better and more complete skaters in their 20s. It’s entirely subjective, and I don’t think I’m superior for preferring older skaters over younger skaters, unlike some of the more obnoxious users here (not you).

It is interesting to me, though, how in all other disciplines being “juniorish” is an accepted quality among most of the younger skaters, but in the ladies we are supposed to see them as on the same level of performance quality as the older seniors because their tech is as good or better. You can be more advanced technically and have juniorish presentation skills. The one doesn’t negate the other.

But those juniors won because they were skating better here. If Alina or Zhenya skated clean they would win over them, i'm sure (Alina has already scored 225 in Nebelhorn this year, she would score at least 5 points more here if being clean). Or even Konstantinova will score on pair with them if she was totally clean. I would agree with you if 'seniors' skated the best they can, but they didn't, nobody of them did, so...

 

[Mathman]

But those juniors won because they were better here. If Alina or Zhenya skated clean they would win over them, i'm sure. Or even Konstantinova will score on pair with them if she was totally clean. I would agree with you if 'seniors' skated the best they can, but they didn't, nobody of them did, so...

To me, the danger is that figure skating will become more and more a sport for little girls. It has already happened to "women's" gymnastics. The way that sport is designed and scored, you peak at 14 and are through by 16. This is just the way it is. Children rigorously trained from the cradle to do amazing tricks (for instance, family trapeze acts) can perform astonishing feats -- right up to the age that they can't do them any more.

Nothing wrong with sports programs for children. (In fact, an argument can be made that all sports are essentially children's games). But when the sport is pushed more and more in a direction where adult competitors have no chance against the bounding youngsters, I think the sport risks losing a lot of its more general interest.

 

[Metis]

You talk as if if someone is replaced by a younger skater, that's a bad thing.If that skater jumps better, is more talented, more consistent, then not only is that reasonable, but that is the only fair option. In other words, just for the sake of there being a "depth" (which I think is a deceptive terminology by the way) the federation shouldn't just say "You are talented but we are not gonna let you win because we already have a star and we want her to have a long career". If the senior skater struggles and gives up, it's on them (Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya). The ones that can will still fight through and see what they can. It's a sport. Not a star-making simulation.

I don’t care about longevity for longevity’s sake. My question to you is this: do you think this is the limit of Zagitova’s technical and artistic abilities? Because I don’t. What bothers me about the constant turnover is that, at best, these girls are good for a season with shaky technique despite having clear potential, but the technique can’t withstand puberty, they’re encouraged to skate through injury and never recover, etc., and that promise they show isn’t just left unfulfilled — they don’t even get a chance to fulfill that promise. And the skaters don’t seem happy with that. It’s one thing if someone says: “Yeah, I had fun in juniors and wasn’t successful in seniors, but what it takes to be successful in seniors isn’t for me.” That’s clearly not what happened to Tsurskaya, Radionova, Sotskova.

Look, at the end of the day, my point remains: if Russia has so much “depth,” why is the issue of retaining spots even being raised? The top three seniors at nationals are all problematic: Zagitova issues from prior seasons haven’t been addressed and the jump technique is deteriorating in real time, likely exacerbated by physical injury; Konstantinova has skating skills but chronic UR issues; Samudorova has better technique but isn’t a high PCS skater, though she’s quite consistent. And right behind them is Medvedeva. That’s not amazing depth. Zagitova is the entire team, and she’s been built up as unbeatable and invincible, which is another issue for a different time, and she’s clearly not.

I also don't like how you make a generalization about the climate of Russian Ladies skating, and conveniently make an exception for Kostornaia who is one of the stars. If she defies your thesis, then maybe it's your thesis that needs to be reconsidered.

Kostornaia has noticeably different jump technique from Trusova and Shcherbakova, isn’t attempting quads, and has already progressed through a fair amount of pubertal development. Her skating skills are also very much not the norm. It’s very clear she joined Eteri’s camp much later.

 

[rachno2]

But those juniors won because they were better here. If Alina or Zhenya skated clean they would win over them, i'm sure. Or even Konstantinova will score on pair with them if she was totally clean. But they weren't, so...

And they deserved their wins. But being better/cleaner/winning isn’t going to make me or some other viewers enjoy their performances more :confused2: That’s what I was saying originally: people like what they like, and it is nearly impossible to convince them otherwise. The Russian ladies field just happens to be where a lot of these fundamental differences in taste are crystallized.

 

[Mathman]

Look, at the end of the day, my point remains: if Russia has so much “depth,” why is the issue of retaining spots even being raised? The top three seniors at nationals are all problematic: Zagitova issues from prior seasons haven’t been addressed and the jump technique is deteriorating in real time, likely exacerbated by physical injury; Konstantinova has skating skills but chronic UR issues; Samudorova has better technique but isn’t a high PCS skater, though she’s quite consistent. And right behind them is Medvedeva. That’s not amazing depth. Zagitova is the entire team, and she’s been built up as unbeatable and invincible, which is another issue for a different time, and she’s clearly not. ...

INMO, the posters that are concerned with losing three spots are just nervous nellies. Anything can happen of course, but to me the chances that Zagitova and Tuktamysheva will not beat the 13-placement threshold are pretty remote, even if they both have undistinguished outings and Japan sweeps the podium.

Plus, to tell the truth, I do think that a country that can field a senior team of Zagitova, Konstantinova, Samudorova, Medvedeva and Tuktamysheva, not to mention a raft of next-tier skaters like Sotskova, is pretty deep after all. Does any other nation besides Japan come close?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Kostornaia has noticeably different jump technique from Trusova and Shcherbakova, isn’t attempting quads, and has already progressed through a fair amount of pubertal development. Her skating skills are also very much not the norm. It’s very clear she joined Eteri’s camp much later.

Weird...I thought Alena progressed the least this season where as Trusova made tremendous gains in her basic skating and overall presentation. Not that Alena needs much further to progress and Sasha I believe simply gets tired but only in the FS. Alena is beyond most seniors in many aspects of skating. I think her only weakness is that she isn’t very charismatic and her programs don’t really bring character but it doesn’t really hurt her scores and it really shouldn’t.It’s also completely unecassary for her to take such an approach IMO. She (like others) are doing just fine by skating to their strengths. I think she’s on a really high level of course but pretty much the same as last year. Her jumps seem to be getting a bit tougher for her to land it seems but nothing to worry about at this point

I’d say Sasha has the strongest jumps of any of the Russian ladies with Tarakanova a close second. I’m talking technique and stability. I like Sofya’s Too but they are small and won’t ever get much GOE. Obviously Liza is best but she’s on her way out and it seems we’re discussing development and depth here.

As for longevity...the rules don’t really encourage it. There just isn’t enough room and funding to sustain this level of talent. Leonova and Tuktamasheva are really rare. Sima is still holding on and competing and improving. She’s about 19 which I’d say is the average age worldwide when skaters stop competing. As long as the sport limits the number of skaters per country and doesn’t include athletes based on skillset you are going to see this turnover of talent in nations with this type of depth.

You can say all you like that there isn’t depth but there are skaters like Gubanova and Tarakanova who aren’t getting the chance to completely demolish international competition in the big events. I think either of these girls could get medals at Euros and GP events just performing to their average potential. If that’s not depth...then I just don’t understand. To me depth is defined not only by your top 3 but far more by the potential of your lower level skaters beyond that. There are just so many skaters who if given a chance would score over 200.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

To me, the danger is that figure skating will become more and more a sport for little girls. It has already happened to "women's" gymnastics. The way that sport is designed and scored, you peak at 14 and are through by 16. This is just the way it is. Children rigorously trained from the cradle to do amazing tricks (for instance, family trapeze acts) can perform astonishing feats -- right up to the age that they can't do them any more.

Nothing wrong with sports programs for children. (In fact, an argument can be made that all sports are essentially children's games). But when the sport is pushed more and more in a direction where adult competitors have no chance against the bounding youngsters, I think the sport risks losing a lot of its more general interest.

But it was like that from the moment i can remember, from Oksana Baluil and Tara Lipinski, through YuNa Kim and Alina Zagitova. Arakawa was the only 'mature' lady who won Olympics. Its not that this Russian juniors changing something in that regard...