At their last international competition Virtue and Moir came second in the short and second and in the freedance. Dean choreographed the winning short and also the winning free in the pairs competition. When it comes to "body of work" they didn't even beat him in their last competition.
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2018 Canadian Nationals Senior Free Dance
- Thread starter Mango
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2014
Are Pakhomova and Gorshkov also regarded as ice dancing greats?
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2016
I'd like to think so. First Olympic Champions.
And Bestemianova/Bukin.
Matt K, I love you! :luv17:
I'd like to think so. First Olympic Champions.
And Bestemianova/Bukin.
I've already said my piece on B/B.
Interestingly enough Pakhomova/Gorshov were the first Olympic gold winners in ice dance but Torvill and Dean were actually huge admirers of Irina Moiseeva/ Andrei Minenkov. I've never sat down and rewatched the P/G programs to compare but I have not heard of many being influenced by them.
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2016
Yeah, bloody hell, you're right! I forgot about Moiseeva/Minenkov. My mum never shuts up about them.
I remember P/G as a kid, they had a fantastic tango. Best ever to me personally were T/D, but the Russians as an ice dance power were quite something.Yeah, bloody hell, you're right! I forgot about Moiseeva/Minenkov. My mum never shuts up about them.
To my naked eye it appears that P/G were very fast but she was definitely the star. M/M seemed more evenly matched, more dramatic, and a lot more creative.
Such conceit from some Canadian fans. I really enjoy a lot of Canadian skaters, but some of their fans and broadcasters are so OTT. Debbi Wilkes is correct that Gabby and Kaetlyn have great power, speed and ice coverage. I think Kaetlyn is perhaps the best lady right now, but unfortunately she did not show it against the Russians on the GP, when she had opportunities to do so. And obviously, the pressure Gabby applied at Cdn Nationals also got to Kaetlyn in a big way. Kaetlyn can not afford to continue faltering like that with nervous lapses. I'm so impressed with how strong Gabby has come back after Skate America and a less than stellar GP season. As for Debbi Wilkes' comments, she did not need to slam other ladies in the world in order to compliment Gabby and Kaetlyn. I don't think the Russian teens should be receiving such overly high PCS, but what a huge slam for Wilkes to infer that they crawl like 'mice' over the ice. Debbi Wilkes inferred that and Ted Barton tried to help her walk back the total dis, even though Wilkes tried to avoid doing so.
And now the necessity in this thread to slam D/W who lived their Olympic dream with great determination, hard work and class. Even V/M have said that training with D/W helped them to be their best. Both teams pushed each other and pushed the ice dance discipline forward. All spoil sports who must continue with the insults against D/W, are simply showing that V/M's greatness can not stand alone and speak for itself. Their fans always find it necessary to insult other teams. People like Tracy Wilson and like some of the posters in this thread find it necessary to dis other teams in order to build up V/M. That's really uncalled for, and it smacks of desperation and feelings of uneasiness, having to brag that your favorites are better than everyone else. I can name at least two teams who have helped push V/M to where they are today. And there are plenty more teams V/M have competed with over the years that they've learned from, including their present coaches, Dubreuil/Lauzon!
There's nothing wrong with believing V/M are the best or your most favorite, but wow Tracy Wilson goes too far in how inelegant and ungracious she phrased her comments. Even Canadian homer Rod Black questioned Tracy's "greatest ever" excessiveness. V/M are great at what they do, which does not mean what they do necessarily exceeds teams who revolutionized the sport in a different era. V/M, D/W, and P/C have followed in the footsteps of the best teams who came before them.
And now the necessity in this thread to slam D/W who lived their Olympic dream with great determination, hard work and class. Even V/M have said that training with D/W helped them to be their best. Both teams pushed each other and pushed the ice dance discipline forward. All spoil sports who must continue with the insults against D/W, are simply showing that V/M's greatness can not stand alone and speak for itself. Their fans always find it necessary to insult other teams. People like Tracy Wilson and like some of the posters in this thread find it necessary to dis other teams in order to build up V/M. That's really uncalled for, and it smacks of desperation and feelings of uneasiness, having to brag that your favorites are better than everyone else. I can name at least two teams who have helped push V/M to where they are today. And there are plenty more teams V/M have competed with over the years that they've learned from, including their present coaches, Dubreuil/Lauzon!
There's nothing wrong with believing V/M are the best or your most favorite, but wow Tracy Wilson goes too far in how inelegant and ungracious she phrased her comments. Even Canadian homer Rod Black questioned Tracy's "greatest ever" excessiveness. V/M are great at what they do, which does not mean what they do necessarily exceeds teams who revolutionized the sport in a different era. V/M, D/W, and P/C have followed in the footsteps of the best teams who came before them.
I won't go into any detail but just as I am completely comfortable showing anyone who dare question V/M a clip of Mahler, I am also willing to do the same for D/W's Bollywood. People can talk until the cows come home about D/W's deficiencies but I'd never seen anything like that on ice before or since. It was viral in India: when do we ever hear of people of color these days actually thanking white folks for doing their culture proud?! :dev2:
Moving on 
Moving on I couldn't have said it better.
What an unecessary bashing of D/W there is in this thread ? Sochi was 4 years ago, do people still feel the need to show insecurities ? D/W are among the fiercest, craziest competitors EVER in Ice Dance. They decided to end up on an OGM and they certainly have nothing to prove to anyone. They are not "already forgotten" and never will be, as much as people would like to. Too bad (If you want that to happen, stop talking about them then).
They have been praised for their work ethic, commitment to the sport, consistency and so on. While you might not necessarily enjoy watching them, it's hard not to see why they have been beaten only twice in a whole quad, that is just mind-blowing. They also didn't make more than one mistake in their 2 last seasons. Who does that ? And their OGM is well deserved, they were crazy good in Sochi... and in Vancouver ! (Bollywood anyone ?).
While some people think they wouldn't have stand a chance artistically against V/M or P/C in this quad, I don't think so. I see D/W in shows and frankly I'm seeing a side of them that I wished I had seen on the ice. The stress gone, the freedom of getting show numbers choregraphed by people from the non-skating world, I've been enjoying them so much perhaps as equally as hen they were competiting.
Yes when someone starts to win everything, you usually follow in the footsteps to make sure you have the right recipe - they same way everyone showed up last season with lyrical music. That's why Marina gave V/M similar construction in elements where in fact they didn't need it. Ice Dance wasn't going to go all circus, but it was redefining. Nobody would like it to just stop evolving.
I don't think Tracy Wilson is helping by adding her comments, but surprisingly enough, I've never seen her so biased, especially since she did commentary on the American broadcast - most recent was Worlds 2016 (?) with Ben Agosto (that was really good). Of course she is politicking/campaigning for her skaters/team and there is nothing wrong with that. But I'm a casual canadian viewer, the Olympics are coming, how am I going to react if "the greatest team of all time" doesn't win ? Say that after the Olympics, with OGM or OSM - because, surprise : an OGM does not define you or your skating (Michelle never got one). It's not always about winning, it's about what you bring (winning and competition should be left to skaters).
All those teams : D/W, V/M, P/C, etc, just continue to bring to the sport in the footsteps of the best ID of all times. Shibutanis might be with D/W a reason to bring Ice Dance to the light of people in the US since they are great ambassadors and using platforms for it. H/D have a raw quality to their skating that could bring them all the way to the top in the quad to come.
And I can go on and on, but it's been a LONG time since we've had that many good teams at once.
I watch figure skating since 1966 and I remember very well all great ice dance teams and champions, starting with the first Olympic champions Ludmila Pohomova and Gorchkov. So, I think I have the right to give my opinion about the greatest ice dance teams. Once back in 1981 I even took a train for 3 days and 3 nights to go to Moscow for the only reason to watch in person Irina Moisseeva and Andrei Minenkov. They were and still are my personal all time favorites, even though judges didn't even give them an Olympic gold.
Although everybody has his/her own favorites, objectively I think that the ice dance World and Olympic champions had/have different influence on the development of this sport, they were on the top of the ice dancing world for a shorter or longer period, etc. That is why it makes sense to put them into different categories. There were Olympic champions who received a gold medal, but didn't influence significantly the future development of the sport. They won because they were the best at that competition/that season, or because of political reasons or other circumstances (for example Lininchuk/Karponossov, Navka/Kostomarov). There were Olympic champions who left a more significant and longer trace in the sport - Bestemyanova/Bukin, Klimova/Ponomarenko, Davis/White and a few more. And there are the greatest champions ever - I would put in this group Pohomova/Gorchkov, Moisseeva/Minenkov, Torvil/Dean and Virtue/Moir. Pohomova/Gorchkov were the first Olympic champions, Moisseeva and Minenkov transformed ice dancing from its baby steps to a mature combination of a sport and a piece of art and influenced Torvill and Dean who then fully developed in this direction and became the greatest ice dancers of the past century. And in the 21 century we have Tessa and Scott who are on the top of this sport for a decade, who influenced young ice dancers all over the world, who proved that they are equally beautiful in interpreting music like Les Parapluies de Cherbourg and Moulin Rouge. This variety in the programs is one of the reasons we can think of them as one of the greatest. Being able to look different, to dance perfectly on any kind of music and not repeat yourself over and over again - this is also one of the ultimate signs of greatness. So, I don't disagree with Tracy Wilson's statement about Tessa and Scott.
Finally, my daughter is lucky enough to skate now at the same rink with Tessa and Scott and Gabby and Guillaume and every time I had the chance to watch them in practice (both teams) they made me cry. Watching in person, not on TV - it is unbelievably beautiful,it's magical, it's another universe. I am sure one day in the future Gaby and Guillaume will fit in the group of the greatest ever champions, too.
Although everybody has his/her own favorites, objectively I think that the ice dance World and Olympic champions had/have different influence on the development of this sport, they were on the top of the ice dancing world for a shorter or longer period, etc. That is why it makes sense to put them into different categories. There were Olympic champions who received a gold medal, but didn't influence significantly the future development of the sport. They won because they were the best at that competition/that season, or because of political reasons or other circumstances (for example Lininchuk/Karponossov, Navka/Kostomarov). There were Olympic champions who left a more significant and longer trace in the sport - Bestemyanova/Bukin, Klimova/Ponomarenko, Davis/White and a few more. And there are the greatest champions ever - I would put in this group Pohomova/Gorchkov, Moisseeva/Minenkov, Torvil/Dean and Virtue/Moir. Pohomova/Gorchkov were the first Olympic champions, Moisseeva and Minenkov transformed ice dancing from its baby steps to a mature combination of a sport and a piece of art and influenced Torvill and Dean who then fully developed in this direction and became the greatest ice dancers of the past century. And in the 21 century we have Tessa and Scott who are on the top of this sport for a decade, who influenced young ice dancers all over the world, who proved that they are equally beautiful in interpreting music like Les Parapluies de Cherbourg and Moulin Rouge. This variety in the programs is one of the reasons we can think of them as one of the greatest. Being able to look different, to dance perfectly on any kind of music and not repeat yourself over and over again - this is also one of the ultimate signs of greatness. So, I don't disagree with Tracy Wilson's statement about Tessa and Scott.
Finally, my daughter is lucky enough to skate now at the same rink with Tessa and Scott and Gabby and Guillaume and every time I had the chance to watch them in practice (both teams) they made me cry. Watching in person, not on TV - it is unbelievably beautiful,it's magical, it's another universe. I am sure one day in the future Gaby and Guillaume will fit in the group of the greatest ever champions, too.
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and memories
. It is one of my favorite things about GS 
Very random: Moiseeva/Minenkov's nickname Minnie and Mo >>>>>>> Voir and Marlie
I agree and would also like something to add.
So I don’t think the opinion of the Canadian commentator given during Canadian Nationals taking place just before the Olympics can be taken too seriously.
I understand that Tessa and Scott have lots of admirers. They are great performers and fantastic ice dancers. But I don’t understand that people can really believe that their impact on ice dance is bigger than Torvill and Dean’s. T&D completely revolutionised ice dancing. Please just compare their own early programs (including the FD with which they won the worlds in 1981) with later programs. These are like completely different worlds, like completely different disciplines of sport. Even today after more than 30 years, so many of us watch with pleasure and awe routines like Mack and Mabel, Bolero or their blues OSP or paso doble OSP. Then compare how really ice dance was different before V/M era. Was is so different? Not really. Maybe the programs were not executed so well as those of V/M’s, whose quality of skating is very high, but this was the same discipline of sport.
Also notice that T&D always chose the music themselves, always did their own choreography. And look at their professional career. Actually they peaked during their professional career, when such masterpieces as Encounter, Oscar Tango, Sarabande and many other were created. On the other hand, how disappointing were V/M in shows. Instead of being more experimental, instead of pushing boundaries of art, they went with cheesy programs to pop songs. Hopefully their choices will be more interesting when they retire from competitive sport after this year Olympics.
Anyway, I’m sure they will be always considered as the sports’ greats, but calling them now the greatest is big exaggeration
IA. Marina was a disappointment that year. Both Seasons and Scheherazade were tragic choices for the Olympic season.
I wonder how much input they had when they were with Marina. Or if they had any at all. Does anyone know ? I know they choose their 2012 FD though. While I thought she was great with her material, it did felt "in a box" with both her top 2. I'm kind of happy that Shibs took care of their creative control now. Maybe it was a bit difficult for her to create for a sibling team since it was not entierely her expertise ? But it has been better since Massimo came in.
This "in a box" thing is maybe why I don't necessarily go back to watch every V/M FD pre-2014. However, their Short Dances ? Mamma Mia. I could watch them (ALL) over and over again.
I would have loved V/M on Notre-Dame de Paris though. I think it would have been SO well-fitting !
Sheherazade was awesome for D/W to be honest. They hit the jackpot with that. What I didn't get was the Seasons. Too vanilla for a team that showed us Carmen the year before. Maybe it was overthought ?
Both teams had great FDs the previous year though. If we switched both seasons, and make Carmen and NDDP in Sochi, it would have been more than incredible.
It's amazing how one season can change things.
2013 me (despite my Carmen quibbles): it is amazing that Marina can still create interesting programs for both teams. She clearly was the genius of the partnership with Igor.
2014 me: child, it's time for you guys to move on. The Seasons is looking awfully derivative and bland and Scheherazade is looking way too calculated and not heartfelt. I see nothing fresh here, just great skating.
:dev2:It's amazing how one season can change things.
2013 me (despite my Carmen quibbles): it is amazing that Marina can still create interesting programs for both teams. She clearly was the genius of the partnership with Igor.
2014: child, it's for you guys to move on. The Seasons is looking awfully derivative and bland and Scheherazade is looking way too calculated and not heartfelt. I see nothing fresh here, just great skating.
Hahaha, this is quite true ! 2014 felt like : wow amazing skating ! 2013 : AMAZING FDs ! And SDs too : D/W executed to some level of precision and V/M 2012-2013 SD is one of my favourite program ever. (Never thought I'd say that about... Polka.)
While I think some V/M ubers have been more than mean to Marina I'll admit one thing though : Scheherazade felt really nice for D/W, like it has been thought well, put well together (calculated ? perhaps yes), in comparaison to seasons which felt almost phoned in, in comparaison. Yes that sounds mean, but I did have questions
almost like : how can she gives things to her no.1 and no.2 that are so different in substance ? Is that even fair ? I think it just didn't turn the way she thought. V/M had developped at that time maybe she did not see it clearly.Plus the Olympic season is seriously not playing to everyone strength. Kudos to Marie-France for managing her teams and all their programs which they ALL decided to do.
Hahaha, this is quite true ! 2014 felt like : wow amazing skating ! 2013 : AMAZING FDs ! And SDs too : D/W executed to some level of precision and V/M 2012-2013 SD is one of my favourite program ever. (Never thought I'd say that about... Polka.)
While I think some V/M ubers have been more than mean to Marina I'll admit one thing though : Scheherazade felt really nice for D/W, like it has been thought well, put well together (calculated ? perhaps yes), in comparaison to seasons which felt almost phoned in, in comparaison. Yes that sounds mean, but I did have questions
Plus the Olympic season is seriously not playing to everyone strength. Kudos to Marie-France for managing her teams and all their programs which they ALL decided to do.
So true!
I also just had a nightmarish flashback of the horrendous version of My Fair Lady that D/W used for the Olympic season. After the perfection of Giselle (and you gotta give D/W props for winning their worlds in Moscow, and London, Ontario) I was so pissed :dev2:
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