2018 Olympic Figure Skating Team Event Day 3

[jenaj]

Completely agree. I do not understand the criticism of backloading jumps in a program. No one is restricted or limited from backloading but they choose not to do it. They see skaters like Alina and Evgenia doing it and being appropriately rewarded for taking the risk but are continuing not to do it. If Alina messes up one of the jumps in the second half of her FS, that would ruin the timing, speed and entries for the other jumps to come since they are all so back to back. She is taking a huge risk and if other skaters are choosing not to do it then it is their pill to swallow.

The tanos, I have a slightly different view. I think doing multiple tanos is okay if you do it "right". Maria Sotskova's tanos irk me to no end I hate her hand placement so I wouldn't consider it to be right. Now with that being said, I do not know if a tano is given credit simply for the fact that it is difficult to have the hand above the head during a jump or if it is supposed to also be aesthetically pleasing. I would say that it is given credit solely for the hand being above the head but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure a lot of skaters can backload if they train for it. If the system continues to reward it, backloading will become the norm, just like Biellmans.

 

[tjb]

I agree that the judging system is flawed. It isn't exactly encouraging to work so hard on making a near perfect 3A just to be still 20 pts behind a backloading skate.

solely on the backloading alina earned about 2 points of advatntage compared to mirai.
it's so heartwarming to see people who are thinking that as soon as the backloading rule will be abolished, eteri's girls will start to lose. the understanding of the system is so deep on this forum

 

[Mathman]

The great thing about Alina's program is that the first half totally holds our interest despite holding off on the jumps.

 

[shiroKJ]

I agree that the judging system is flawed. It isn't exactly encouraging to work so hard on making a near perfect 3A just to be still 20 pts behind a backloading skate.

One element shouldn't be the end all be all. Landing a ratified triple axel is a huge accomplishment in its own right. You get to be part of a legacy and that's more than enough encouragement for a lot of people.

 

[rikaquegira]

this thread is out of control..

 

[Lester]

Yes, Polina takes ballet lessons. Alina takes ballet lessons, and dances en pointe. Like I said, you should learn more about these things before you comment.

What does it matter if Alina takes ballet lessons when she performs like a robot on the ice? Does she extend her movement, hold her positions? No, it's rush to the next position.

 

[ivanja]

solely on the backloading alina earned about 2 points of advatntage compared to mirai.
it's so heartwarming to see people who are thinking that as soon as backloading rule will be abolished, eteri's girls will start losing. the understanding of the system is so deep on this forum

It's also the PCS department that was very much questionable.

Backloading is a matter of a principle for me, since it's basically going around the rules. Bonuses were given for jumps "distribution", even though all of the jumps were within 2 minutes. That's not what distribution means. If they want to give bonuses for distribution then they should only give it to those jumps that have non-jumping element both before and after.

 

[Hevari]

Completely agree. I do not understand the criticism of backloading jumps in a program. No one is restricted or limited from backloading but they choose not to do it. They see skaters like Alina and Evgenia doing it and being appropriately rewarded for taking the risk but are continuing not to do it. If Alina messes up one of the jumps in the second half of her FS, that would ruin the timing, speed and entries for the other jumps to come since they are all so back to back. She is taking a huge risk and if other skaters are choosing not to do it then it is their pill to swallow and let's be honest, skating a clean program without backloading is difficult enough for the top 10 ladies, can't imagine the mess if all of them try to backload to maximize their points..

The tanos, I have a slightly different view. I think doing multiple tanos is okay if you do it "right". Maria Sotskova's tanos irk me to no end I hate her hand placement so I wouldn't consider it to be right. Now with that being said, I do not know if a tano is given credit simply for the fact that it is difficult to have the hand above the head during a jump or if it is supposed to also be aesthetically pleasing. I would say that it is given credit solely for the hand being above the head but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

For me it seems that the criticism of backloading and "over-tanoing" has it's root (let's say so) in "revarding" it in the PCS... And from this point of view that's some reason behind the criticism...

 

[TontoK]

this thread is out of control..

Disagree.

The thread has passionate people debating the sport they love.

There's no rule that says we all must agree.

 

[skatespin]

I agree that the judging system is flawed. It isn't exactly encouraging to work so hard on making a near perfect 3A just to be still 20 pts behind a backloading skate.

I agree too. Why bother trying to learn a 3A (which most ladies are not able to ever fully master) and incur risk using it in competition, when you can just back load triple jumps that you can already do. I find Alina's 3 lutz-3 loop impressive, that is pushing the ladies technical envelope a bit, but it really ends there, everything else is just backloading and rippon arms. She does it really well, but the component score is outrageous. Have her ahead in first, that's fine based on the judging system, but why put such an insane gap between her and the scores of other skaters (even skaters who were not competing in that event) that they could never, ever close. It leads to even when they (Alina, Evgenia) have messy, flawed programs they still win, just because no one can catch up to the super inflated scores unless they happen to absolutely bomb (which almost never, ever happens). I also noticed that last night Alina's 3 loop combo looked a little UR, I'm sure some will say it's not and that's okay, but I've noticed that often 3 loop combos (that ladies do) are heavily scrutinized and often called UR, though I notice for her it almost never seems to be closely looked at, I guess because she has a reputation of doing it clean.

 

[rikaquegira]

Disagree.

The thread has passionate people debating the sport they love.

There's no rule that says we all must agree.

Of course. I didn't mean to say that people can't debate.
Who am I to say such a thing?

 

[tjb]

I find Alina's 3 lutz-3 loop impressive, that is pushing the ladies technical envelope a bit, but it really ends there, .

it not ends there. she's doing 3Lz-3Lo not for the sake of doing, it allows her to repeat a 3Lz and a 3F, while most of the ladies are repeating 3T. she has the highest BV among senior ladies not just because of backloading

 

[Lester]

solely on the backloading alina earned about 2 points of advatntage compared to mirai.
it's so heartwarming to see people who are thinking that as soon as the backloading rule will be abolished, eteri's girls will start to lose. the understanding of the system is so deep on this forum

I think the main reason Alina backloads is to beat Evgenia, because you cannot dethrone one overscored champion with a gimmick without your own gimmick. This is the unfortunate consequence of having Evgenia as an undisputed champion with a hefty cushion for several seasons in a row.

 

[Nikidom]

Zagitova, the arms, the sloppy, choppy movements — I just can't. The PCS should be in the basement, but instead they'll be in the clouds. So, so wrong.

So funny opinion about Zagi, this programm is probably the best staging of FS program ever, and the first half with superb difficult choreo to implement. If you check every performance ,she brings something new every time to it. But If you dont like ballet or don't understand anyting about it like some people do, it is ok. I dont know much about Hakka ballet for example

 

[TontoK]

Of course. I didn't mean to say that people can't debate.
Who am I to say such a thing?

It's possible I've misinterpreted what "out of control" means.

Awesome experiences can also be characterized as "out of control" and perhaps that's what you meant.

 

[skylark]

Backloading is a matter of a principle for me, since it's basically going around the rules. Bonuses were given for jumps "distribution", even though all of the jumps were within 2 minutes. That's not what distribution means.

Exactly right. Your 3 sentences illustrate very well why valuing intangible qualities like aesthetic beauty, balance and expression ... can't be adequately addressed by assigning a points value to everything.

 

[rikaquegira]

It's possible I've misinterpreted what "out of control" means.

Awesome experiences can also be characterized as "out of control" and perhaps that's what you meant.

What I meant, to be honest, is that these discussions can be somewhat repetitive. It seems it's always the same thing: some people complaining about scores, backloading, arms over the head, some people comparing skaters without recognizing that each has their own merits, some people just being sarcastic.
Of course everyone can speak their mind. But I guess I was just surprised because I thought that after yesterday's amazing competition people here would be a little more positive and less "oh but my fave is the best and your fave is just the worst ever". You know?
But on a second thought I agree with you. Overall it is just a passionate discussion.

 

[TontoK]

What I meant, to be honest, is that these discussions can be somewhat repetitive. It seems it's always the same thing: some people complaining about scores, backloading, arms over the head, some people comparing skaters without recognizing that each has their own merits, some people just being sarcastic.
Of course everyone can speak their mind. But I guess I was just surprised because I thought that after yesterday's amazing competition people here would be a little more positive and less "oh but my fave is the best and your fave is just the worst ever". You know?
But on a second thought I agree with you. Overall it is just a passionate discussion.

Your point is not without merit. I sometimes repeat myself on different threads on different days, and it is a habit I'm attempting to break.

Of course, I can claim advanced age, so everyone has to forgive me.

 

[Blushingheart]

So funny opinion about Zagi, this programm is probably the best staging of FS program ever, and the first half with superb difficult choreo to implement. If you check every performance ,she brings something new every time to it. But If you dont like ballet or don't understand anyting about it like some people do, it is ok. I dont know much about Hakka ballet for example

I prefer Alina to Evgenia myself. Really. Yes, it is balletic, it works but we will see next season what she will do next. What if all her programs will be balletic? I hope not. I d love to see in her something different.
I think Medviedeva should have some jump in the beginning of the program anyway. It seemed to take forever to get going. Not much happening in the first minute. I think Alinas programis better in this matter. She has better choreo. She is faster. Evgenia is slow and I mean really slow. Theres no much choreo on her step sequance. Actually at all. Poor ice coverage as well. Alina improved and I think next season Evgenia is done. Last 2 season she was just one , only skater with backloading. So she was clean winner . But there are more and better girls with backloading now.

 

[Blushingheart]

What does it matter if Alina takes ballet lessons when she performs like a robot on the ice? Does she extend her movement, hold her positions? No, it's rush to the next position.

I dont mind backloading but the biggest problem i have with those girls that they dont have nice lines , flow.