2018 US Championships Sr Men SP

[Mathman]

How is Nathan *supposed* to be dressed?

The black "practice outfit" that he used at the Grand Prix Final. :yes:

 

[NoNameFace]

The question I would ask you is: what WOULD fit the music - what does the music tell you?

How is Nathan *supposed* to be dressed?

Firstly, I do think that the simpler, the better - and this previous 'costume' Nathan had with shirt and trousers was much better to the whole program's vibe, music and created definitely more 'unified', understandable impression overall with his skating/choreography etc. Then, the music for me is about some kind of edge, quirk, tension AND modernity foremost which then is well reflected in Nathan's choreography and way he performs it - and here we have a question: do we want the costume to increase the effect created by music/movement or would it be better to have it as simplistic/streamlined as it could be (all black, no extravaganza in cuts, no bedazzle etc.), just a canvas to focus on skating?

My two cents are that I do believe that there's a compromise somewhere between those two approaches, but Nathan's current costume is not it - for me, it is an antithesis of how rich, complete, and thoughtful the program is, it derails the focus and excitement over Nathan's performance, design of the program, sharpness of movement, giving too much attention to the costume itself and how confusing somewhat it looks with all of the rest. Myself, I'd source the inspiration from something more 'casual' and sleek, highlighting Nathan's physique/lines (cut and colour mainly), but spicing it all up with maybe one, two carefully thought out details: some arm details, cuffs in different shade/with little, subtle bedazzle etc., something to 'edge' up that program and to keep up with its modern flare.

To be honest, I would be perfectly fine with slim fit trousers and upper body gear as a slim-fitted turtleneck-style something, all in black, with some red details on cuffs. I would also be happy about simple dark shirts with trousers, like Nathan had so far. If there's a desire to go more avant-garde route, I think that he would look good AND still be in agreement with music/program's aesthetic if wearing some kind of de-constructed, edgy variation of suit jacket (asymmetrical, maybe with some shiny lapels, red/burgundy pop of colour underneath...). I am actually kind of baffled that there's such costume idea for Nathan who has killer silhouette to dress and such program to highlight by a costume, but it's me who often derail from things that are important and focus on costumes.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Does anyone know if Nathan has an injury or something?? I’m kinda worried that may be the case. Him and his team have been quoted with statements saying 4Loop is off the table. The way he has changed quads up this season is a bit more drastic than normal. It causes concern that maybe he is compensating for an injury not yet disclosed. I truly hope the whole “sick” narrative is just that and not a way to explain away something more severe physically. Fingers crossed he’s 100% next month!

He is simply sick, as in there is a flu bug going around here. Many of the Jr and lower level skaters caught it this week and now some of the Seniors. Karen Chen has it too.

 

[TCAngel18]

He is simply sick, as in there is a flu bug going around here. Many of thr Jr and lower level skaters caught it this week and now some of the Seniors. Karen Chen has it too.

Oh good. Well, not good that he’s sick, but glad it isn’t something worse. Someone said something earlier about it being in the whole Bay Area, probably a new strain.

 

[Ares]

I could maybe take this if you only mentioned Patrick, but Shoma? Shoma barely shows any of his skating skills with his constant 2 footed skating and crossovers. And this is not a slight on Shoma or trying to hate on him as I do like him with his musicality and natural intense aura, but I don't think he's really displaying the best of the best SS.

I agree on Shoma but on the other hand ... people here are too fixated on that 2footed skating = mediocre skating skills mantra to notice that you can display good skating skills while skating firmly on two feet also even without drawing away off the ice any of your skates*. Patrick Chan is a good example of that. Like here in this disappointing LP for him in Sochi for 2-3 seconds ... he skates on two feet, doing some turns, but it looks so smooth, butter like, on deep, clear - strongly sustained edges as well. and later on when he does cross-overs (counts as 2 footed skating too), he blends it very well.

https://youtu.be/GYZALf3vyqA?t=56s And well ... even in crossovers you can display different range of skating skill, but if you do them 95% of time it does not speak highly of SS obviously.


* I know, I know about that pivotal 1 foot skating requirement written down as well as you need to show some extent of that but my point stands. There are actually some skaters who use more 1 foot skating but whose skating skills are pretty average but people are just oblivious to that.

 

[Skater Boy]

I think her concept was to create a costume for Nathan that would showcase his skating. Less is more, if you will. But I think there's more to that... elaborating on my previous post:

When I first saw Nathan do Nemesis (my first time hearing the song Nemesis, too), I actually thought it was some sort of jazz/blues number because of the piano riffs, and because of the rolled up sleeves/casual outfit Nathan was wearing. I thought he was trying to portray a character like some pianist in a jazz bar, perhaps a bit angsty one (yes, cliche, I know). But that's the thing about so many skating costumes. The costume is used to help with characterization, to the point where some costumes become a literal expression of music.

Then when I saw this costume, like others, I was confused - it was such a departure from the costume I'd seen before, and like others I didn't know what to make of it. But once I stopped trying to see the casual rolled jazz pianist character that I'd envisioned before when he'd done this SP earlier this season, I started looking more at the actual skating itself.And then I realized that it's not supposed to be anything specific. It's movement and interpretation of the music. And interestingly, after looking up Benjamin Clementine I learned that critics often struggle to place his music in any genre. His work is often described as avant garde or experimental.

Now that Nathan is wearing a minimalist costume with white lines on black, it's hard to define it thematically (i.e. place it in an era, or picture him as an archetype or a character or assign it a specific storyline), so weirdly enough it actually does reflect the music he's skating too by being almost open-ended and abstract and just "different". And indeed, actually kinda reflects Nathan's movements because when I first saw this program (and I think others mentioned similarly) it really does look like a different way/type of skating.

The question I would ask you is: what WOULD fit the music - what does the music tell you?

How is Nathan *supposed* to be dressed?

Not like this! I appreciate Ms. Wang's minimalist approach but this really oddly is distracting - like a bad work out outfit. Now Gordeeva and Grinkov did it right to Moonlight Sonata and those simple outfit. THis just does very little for the programme. I think minimalism can work and vera wang does a wonderful job of this usually but this falls flat.

 

[Skater Boy]

I really feel for the men well all the skaters. They so want to do their best and go to the Olympics. I appreciate Chen sick or not sick. But I am sad to see skating become so overwhelmed and dominated by jumpos really a quad is all it takes to get rid of horrific pcs or no artistry. I think though Nathan will win OGM with Hanyu injured. Shoma might battle him but I do see one skater which one I am not sure bombing due to the quad focus. My heart goes out to Max; it really seems like it is closing time for him. Just devastating. I rewatched Jason and while he is a good skater I think he is overmarked and should be in fifth behind Grant.

 

[Mrs. P]

Whoo. Can breathe now that Jason's skated. Engaging performance as usual, but he needs that triple axel. I think he got lucky with the judging. Grant should have been ahead, perhaps even in second. Hoping for a clean long from Jason.

It's kind of a shame cause he did not miss any of his 3A either in the warm-up in competition or in the warm-up prior to competition Jason was way to far away for me to argue whether the 3A was UR to the naked eye (it was definitely two-footed), but he really did do well everywhere else. I wouldn't object to switching Grant (whose perofrmance I enjoy immensly in perosn) and Jason's placements.

Jason did skate a compelling performance in spite of his mistake -- it's why he got a partial standing ovation.

Overall, the men did better than the ladies, IMO. I enjoyed most of the performances this evening.

 

[ioanablabla]

I see there's a debate about technical vs artistry. That's why I think we, the audience, should push for a mix of the two in the next generations.

 

[Anyasnake]

Caught up a bit with the competition. If you thought the judging was odd yesterday, today was some shady judging to a level.

Why was the Ur on the 3A not called when it was SO obvious ? That is bonkers to me. That is one thing to overscore, that is another to put Olympic chances of other men to rest.
Grant was REALLY good, deserved to challenge Adam a bit more on points (but I guess 3rd place was written already).
Too bad for Vincent fall, his technical is something, and he has nice lines that I hope will be used more in the future to boost his PCS.
1&2 did really well.

Anyway wishing everyone a clean long. And for everyone to be called on Ur when they do one.

 

[Jaana]

Very sorry about Aaron, but it was his own choice to finish his studies in the Olympic season. One needs to give skating the full attention if one wants to be on the US Olympic team. Of course Aaron could get further upwards with his freeskate, but he would need at least the second place overall and it does not look likely, IMO.

Brown was overscored of course, nothing new with that, but the "triple axel" UR was really claring, shame on the technical caller!!!

Hochstein was really good in sp, just hoping the fs will be on the same level...

Congratulations to Chen for sp win!!!

 

[TerpsichoreFS]

Guys Nathan cut his hair just so that by mid-february it'd be nice and curly without being messy for the big tv moment! I thought his short saw very good, bad costume not withstanding

IMHO the threat to Jason is Vincent Chou. Even if Chou under-rotatres half of his quads, his base value could still be enough to overtake Jason and his PCSs.

Vicent Chou! It'd be such a cute nickname. Vicent Chou! Be careful on those quads! (Chou is a term of endearment in French, like honey)

I saw Adam live last year at gpf, he didn't do much with his feet then. He seems to have gotten slightly better but the two foot skating is noticeable. Jason's sp is almost unwatchable. I haven't seen hamilton, so all I notice is the period costume and the kitschy skating.

 

[NoNameFace]

finally watched some performances (working and having YT booted on the phone, I know - I'm just bad like this) and vive la difference! This is why exactly I love and am so excited about US Men's field, there's literally everything for everyone, from both technical and stylistic/aesthetical standpoints: modern music, dance hits, bold choices, classics, musical, warhorses, great spins, engaging step sequences, quads, but foremost so much individuality in all of this. I can easily distinct one skater from another, not only by their tech content and musical choice, but by the way they are interpreting things, presenting the program - and what is beautiful in it is that one way of presentation does not reduce the value of another style for me.

Thank God for skaters like Sean, Ross or Grant - each one so magnificent in his own way of performance, performance TO the people. For me, it was visible that there is such strong relationship between those skaters and their programs, music, care put in projection, to reflect the vibe of the music and their personality. Sean or Ross may have no 'big tricks' or quads under their belts, but they really developed a strong and refined sense of performance abilities that keeps audience engaged and entertained, and personally I admire their guts to take on themes not traditionally connected with FS, pushing the envelope with expression, musical choice and attitude that may not get them high universal praise, but earn the interest of some and actually bring new ones to the discipline, as they are going out with their stuff, not closing themselves inside one particular aesthetic.

Grant was a real highlight - he may have his ups and downs, but boy, when he's on, he's ON everything: execution, expression, emotion. So soulful performance that really felt like a saying 'love you' to Caroline, which adds even more amazement to the whole package. For me, it's so great to witness a skater that invests his personal feelings towards other person (sharing the same passion and activity with him) and sharing it in front of whole world on ice - it taken some courage. I find Grant an amazing 'storyteller' on ice, who has technical goods, just not consistent. And I find his performances 'real' as they are: there is no sense of creation there, but more like introducing himself in a form of skating performance; those performances seem very 'approachable' for me and Grant is really a skater that I simply 'click' with, even with mistakes, because of the conviction he has over this whole effect.

Jimmy Ma - what a sensational program and a skater who is not afraid to put it out there!This is what I'm talking about: more sourcing from skaters' themselves than the traditional, perceived view on the field and discipline. Yes - it is bold, yes - it is not a cup of tea for probably most viewers, but it challenges to go outside of a comfort zone full of personal prejudices and stereotypes about 'artistry', 'relevance' or 'stylish' terms and it catches eyes by its different take and original, non-obvious choice of music.

Now, going more onto Adam and Jason - as I read this thread basically in full, what 'amazes' me (in negative, baffling sense) is the amount of discrediting them due to this bold, personal signature they have about their material, its execution and attitude presented, also off-ice. While with Jason it is mostly about how he is per se (his natural positivity, exuberance incorporated within his skating stuff and way he expresses himself in competitive/show programs, using 'trademark' abilities to set himself apart in the field, this 'niche' found in competitive area, even with not so competitive skills according to some lol), would it be better to perceive/receive Adam the way he was previously, before growing into his skin, who he is as a person and giving it out on the ice, too? I bet that would make no difference for him competition-wise (he would stay where he was, on the crossroads between what he should do to please others and he would like to do for himself) and he would never be that happy, glowing and confident like he is now.

There is really something to be said for 'being your own best advertisement' mind-set - Jason did it from the very beginning, not being shy of what he's on daily basis and Adam went a long route to be his natural self also in FS competitive environment, to embrace that sass he has naturally. Is it that bad to use it for his own good in performances? I do not really feel it as something forced, which would be definitely wrong if it was like that. Both Jason and Adam are capitalizing on qualities/abilities they have developed, pushing at the same time this envelope performance-wise (and progressing in that area in my opinion each season), yet there are so many accusations of them being 'one trick pony', not pushing the discipline forward, being overhyped, not worthy things they achieve, appreciation they get - while I do get that they have no array of quads in handy or programs with universal appeal, I do not get the complaint on them finding their own place in the discipline through non-traditional approach and methods/attitude that reflects more on their personal perspective that perspective typically associated with figure skating Men's field. For me, they are challenging the sport maybe not in technically revolutionary sense, but they are definitely challenging the perception of it, the appeal of actual programs presented, appeal of non-jumping element, appeal of whole package/entourage, Adam in particular I feel - his courageous, brave approach towards himself as a public figure, an athlete, strive for developing his skills/abilities (which he does constantly, the improvement is visible for me) while doing it on his own conditions makes me envious of his confidence level, how proudly he carries himself, how soundly he appears as a performer. Of course, his speeches, how he takes things, with this 'tongue-in-cheek', sassy attitude will be off-putting for traditional judges/officials - but would it make it worse for Adam than before this change/embrace of personality? I don't think so. He seems strengthened, solidified by the way he works and represents himself, which then reflects on the impact of his performances.

Both skaters - Jason and Adam - are eye-catchers in my opinion when it comes to the whole image created: there is something original, daring, different in their material and they really can defend this quality by performance. Though while Adam is using more 'strike-a-pose' technique, combined with speed and this sassy attitude aura (so well-matched to his programs actually, which should be considered as a virtue, not a failure! Adam really know how to 'sell' this kind of programs like SP to the audience that is ready to buy it), Jason I feel uses more languid, continuous and flowy way of skating/performing, full of gorgeous lines, positions and this intricacy in movement. Both equally appealing for me, because done so rightly, by right skaters.

And a bit about don't understanding the hype about Adam...Well, it depends on what 'hype' we consider, because for me Adam's 'hype' is a 'self-hype' and he's not even shy about it. He truly believes in what he does, being in opposition, off the pack of traditional perception of how Men's skating should look/be like - and people are catching upon that belief, since Adam is proving it competition by competition. He actually progressed big time for past 2-3 seasons for me, there is more attack, speed and coverage in his skating, he's working on skating skills, he's getting better and better with consistency (despite last season's injury) and he's in his very bloom as a performer - there's a lot of things to appreciate in Adam, his confidence being the leading one for me, because his start and finish is all about that. Which then can be - and should be, honestly - a source of inspiration for people, hence for me there's no wonder about 'hype' Adam gets.

Last, but not least - I am a bit confused about dragging non-US skaters to this very thread or saying that skater's x/y score is not fair for other non-US skater etc. Is it fair then to drag non-US skaters there, at US Nationals, where they did not compete? I'd rather focus on skaters we have here and eventual comparisons between them, as they are battling for US spots, not other country ones or in international competitions...

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Some people are saying Adam does not work as hard as skaters who can consistently land quads. I have to say you are insanely wrong. First of all, you do not get the physique that Adam has WITHOUT working hard. Do you see the energy Adam sustains throughout the entire program tonight? Every second of his program is filled up. He has solid, centered, beautiful spins and sit spins. He performs and engages the audience and pulls them in as if thy are part of the program.
Both Scott Hamilton and Tara Lipisnki have stated that Adam is one of the hardest working skaters out there, his consistency is a result of that.
I have learned (from this forum actually) that learning to do a quad is equivalent to learning a new jump. So, in other words, it takes years to perfect. Adam used to have problems with his 3 axel, now even when he is "off his axis" ( as the eurosport guys say) he still lands them. That doesn't happen without working hard.
Adam maximizes every point. Every step. He goes with his strengths.
You do not get his level of consistency without working very hard.
As quick as some are to banish his success because he "doesn't have a quad" do you realize how many skaters wish they could have what Adam has?? There are more than a few quad filled programs where if the quads where not there, they would be very empty and void of anything engaging.

I am not saying that quads are not impressive and something that should be highly rewarded. OR that if a skater can do different quads in their program that their program is automatically lacking in other areas. That is definitely not always the case. But I am saying that a well rounded, quadless program is not a walk in the park. It takes hard work.

Adam is determined. He has had a lot of ups and downs in his career and was left off two Olympic teams. He wants this and he is working the hardest he ever has in his career to get it.
To simply shrug him off as taking the easy way out is just sort of ridiculous; spins, footwork, choreography and performance and sustaining energy and flow while engaging the audience are not just fillers between jumps. They take skill, practice and a lot of hard work.
Programs are packages, whether that package is impressive quad jumps or solidly landed triples with impressive footwork and spins or both. They are equally satisfying and equally difficult.

 

[Ylyzybyth]

^ you said it.
Adams skating gives me chills, and I can't help but feel proud to see Jason performing.

 

[Kittosuni]

Nathan needs to go back to his old SP costume or change it. it looks like the skeleton costume for Halloween.

But i have to be honest, with the name "Vera Wang" attached to it, some how it make it more acceptable but if this was done by someone unknown, this costume will be in the category of "WTH are you thinking"

 

[NoNameFace]

Some people are saying Adam does not work as hard as skaters who can consistently land quads. I have to say you are insanely wrong. First of all, you do not get the physique that Adam has WITHOUT working hard. Do you see the energy Adam sustains throughout the entire program tonight? Every second of his program is filled up. He has solid, centered, beautiful spins and sit spins. He performs and engages the audience and pulls them in as if thy are part of the program.
Both Scott Hamilton and Tara Lipisnki have stated that Adam is one of the hardest working skaters out there, his consistency is a result of that.
I have learned (from this forum actually) that learning to do a quad is equivalent to learning a new jump. So, in other words, it takes years to perfect. Adam used to have problems with his 3 axel, now even when he is "off his axis" ( as the eurosport guys say) he still lands them. That doesn't happen without working hard.
Adam maximizes every point. Every step. He goes with his strengths.
You do not get his level of consistency without working very hard.
As quick as some are to banish his success because he "doesn't have a quad" do you realize how many skaters wish they could have what Adam has?? There are more than a few quad filled programs where if the quads where not there, they would be very empty and void of anything engaging.

I am not saying that quads are not impressive and something that should be highly rewarded. OR that if a skater can do different quads in their program that their program is automatically lacking in other areas. That is definitely not always the case. But I am saying that a well rounded, quadless program is not a walk in the park. It takes hard work.

Adam is determined. He has had a lot of ups and downs in his career and was left off two Olympic teams. He wants this and he is working the hardest he ever has in his career to get it.
To simply shrug him off as taking the easy way out is just sort of ridiculous; spins, footwork, choreography and performance and sustaining energy and flow while engaging the audience are not just fillers between jumps. They take skill, practice and a lot of hard work.
Programs are packages, whether that package is impressive quad jumps or solidly landed triples with impressive footwork and spins or both. They are equally satisfying and equally difficult.

some people just focus on wondering what's behind 'Adam's hype' and blame his sassiness put too much out there - I'd say just please don't blame skaters for using what the have in abundance to make it work for their own profit. I does not mean that they work less, work less intensely - there's actually quite an underestimation over working hard on things non-obvious, not as 'in-your-face' as quads for example, such little consideration over how hard is to develop a personal style of performance, sell it and keep its integrity in both execution and expression senses.

Adam actually dares people to watch him as a centrepiece of his every performance, which then puts off some people, making him appear narcissistic and 'too much' - what is exactly wrong about having that much confidence and faith in self work put inside profession, to make people watch you? And he's proved that dogs can bark and the caravan goes on - there is nothing to be ashamed of, when it comes to Adam's dazzling looks and great talent, I totally understand his unapologetic stance on himself.

 

[demarinis5]

Congrats to Nathan, Adam and Jason, well done! A lot of really good skating from the US men. Grant's SP was wonderful and
Ross skated very well too.

Very sad about Max. I hope he is alright.

 

[da96103]

Nathan can walk to center ice, sit down and file his nails and he would still get first place.

He could win it here but in the Olympics, Shoma wins the nail-filing section, nails down.

 

[cell]

Johnson: Easily my favorite performance of all the men. Here's someone who was actually dancing along with his music with his entire body and using his blades to skate (side eye to Rippon). He mooooved so well! I'm in love with him.
.

I enjoyed him a lot. Easily the best SP music this competition too.

- - - Updated - - -

:hap93: So happy to hear that his performance was as amazing live as it was on my screen. Judges, wake up and give the man his PCS!

Yesss, we can agree on something . :thumbsup: