2019-20 Japanese ladies' figure skating

[zanadude]

it really boils down to not having the full spectrum of skills required of a modern day figure skater. Having exceptional technical skills combined with top notch artistry.

None of the past three grand prix event winners have "the full spectrum of skills". They are all heavily slanted to the technical side.

 

[LiamForeman]

None of the past three grand prix event winners have "the full spectrum of skills". They are all heavily slanted to the technical side.

Kostornaia????

 

[Joekaz]

You are talking as if Sakamoto, Higuchi, even Kihira are paragons of artistry. No they are not. They are powerful and fast skaters but you have to be seriously wumming if you put them on the rank of Asada in terms of interpretation, musicality, elegance, nuance. It seems quite popular here to elevate the Japanese ladies to a pedestal where people attribute qualities which on close perfection really do not exist. Honda and Miyahara have it but there technically poor so in the end it really boils down to not having the full spectrum of skills required of a modern day figure skater. Having exceptional technical skills combined with top notch artistry.

I think Sakamoto and Higuchi have the skills to be a champion, though Sakamoto isn't very graceful. But where they are lacking is the fact that they have the old school body type for good jumpers, thick legs and lower body,and as a consequence uence don't rotate quickly. Todays jumping style for 3A and quads emphasises rotation speed over jump height. That's the opposite of traditional jump style and they both have been caught in the transition.

 

[lzxnl]

You are talking as if Sakamoto, Higuchi, even Kihira are paragons of artistry. No they are not. They are powerful and fast skaters but you have to be seriously wumming if you put them on the rank of Asada in terms of interpretation, musicality, elegance, nuance. It seems quite popular here to elevate the Japanese ladies to a pedestal where people attribute qualities which on close perfection really do not exist. Honda and Miyahara have it but there technically poor so in the end it really boils down to not having the full spectrum of skills required of a modern day figure skater. Having exceptional technical skills combined with top notch artistry.

Asada wasn't perfect either. Her lutz was never very good and she was plagued by URs at the Sochi Olympics (which were, unfortunately, mostly all warranted). In comparisons with Asada, you could make a good case that Rika's artistic deficiencies are compensated by Asada's technical deficiencies, so I think comparing the two is reasonably fair.

 

[RafaelAstro]

You are talking as if Sakamoto, Higuchi, even Kihira are paragons of artistry. No they are not. They are powerful and fast skaters but you have to be seriously wumming if you put them on the rank of Asada in terms of interpretation, musicality, elegance, nuance. It seems quite popular here to elevate the Japanese ladies to a pedestal where people attribute qualities which on close perfection really do not exist. Honda and Miyahara have it but there technically poor so in the end it really boils down to not having the full spectrum of skills required of a modern day figure skater. Having exceptional technical skills combined with top notch artistry.

They don´t have the same style as Mao, artistry is more than use classical music, do ballet, look elegant, and bla bla , this sport is not only russian style, there are plenty of music genres with different forms to interpret it. If you ask me there is a lot of skaters mostly from russia that thinks they are interpretatives just because they always skate to classical and elegant music, that's so wrong, many of them doesn´t interpret nothing trough the program, and people put them in a pedestal, no matter what they are seing, just because of the nacionality. To say that all japanese skating fans always put in pedestal japanese skaters as if other countries doesn´t do that it's so stupid sorry, you are generalizing. Of course artistry is very subjetive, but its obvius what skaters have a personality in their programs along with skating skills and transitions, and that includes Sakamoto, Higuchi, and Rika, with their powerful jumps,at the same time, but with different style and music genres, so for me they are very complete skaters and not because they are japanese :noshake:, the only thing they don´t have a lot its consistency, but notice that it's not something that is scored or that should count, stop making comparisions, every skater is different. :roll5:

 

[Mishaminion]

None of the past three grand prix event winners have "the full spectrum of skills". They are all heavily slanted to the technical side.

Kostornaia has excellent skills in most areas.

But besides that the technical difficulty is why they're winning.

 

[Globetrotter]

None of the past three grand prix event winners have "the full spectrum of skills". They are all heavily slanted to the technical side.

I don’t agree. Alyona Kostornaia is quite widely accepted to be quite an all rounder in both tech and all the PCS components. Sasha Trusova is indeed heavily slanted to the tech but I personally think Anna Scherbakova has very good performance and musicality in addition to the quads, although SS is a relatively weaker area.

 

[Globetrotter]

You are talking as if Sakamoto, Higuchi, even Kihira are paragons of artistry. No they are not. They are powerful and fast skaters but you have to be seriously wumming if you put them on the rank of Asada in terms of interpretation, musicality, elegance, nuance. It seems quite popular here to elevate the Japanese ladies to a pedestal where people attribute qualities which on close perfection really do not exist. Honda and Miyahara have it but there technically poor so in the end it really boils down to not having the full spectrum of skills required of a modern day figure skater. Having exceptional technical skills combined with top notch artistry.

To be fair, both Satoko and Marin are poor technically only for jumps due to their much less than stellar jump technique. Otherwise, both have strong basic SS and Satoko especially is actually very strong in the non jumps. There are very few skaters whom I can think of that can spin better and interpret while executing a complex step sequence.

 

[zanadude]

Kostornaia????

She is the best of the three in that regard, but she won because of her triple axels, not because of her artistry.

 

[eterialskater]

Asada wasn't perfect either. Her lutz was never very good and she was plagued by URs at the Sochi Olympics (which were, unfortunately, mostly all warranted). In comparisons with Asada, you could make a good case that Rika's artistic deficiencies are compensated by Asada's technical deficiencies, so I think comparing the two is reasonably fair.

I think Rika can definitely attain Mao's legendary status. Her jumping ability is already the best out of the non quad jumpers. Artistry wise though she still seems a bit raw for me but she has time. It is not only Zagitova that needs some lessons in refinement and finesse. Truth be told am not a fan of lyrical skating as it is. I find it extremely boring honestly. Jumping ability and getting high levels on step sequences and spins still win out over being elegant. Being able to skate to lyrical music though is still the ideal for skaters who aim to be considered a great(I don't agree).

 

[Globetrotter]

She is the best of the three in that regard, but she won because of her triple axels, not because of her artistry.

Hmm, if the 3A (called <, BV + GOE = 6.13) she attempted in the SP and replace it with 2A (assuming it will be Finlandia standard, BV + GOE = 4.68), the reduction in SP scores will be from 76.55 to 75.10. If there is no 3A in the FS, I am going to assume that her FS layout will be similar to what she attempted in her junior season plus a choreo sequence. Using her junior GPF FS scores as reference (TES = 74.37) and adding in the possible scres for the ChSq based on her IdF attemp (BV 3.00 + GOE 1.43), her new theoretical total TES without 3As will be 78.8 => reduction of -9.58. Assuming the PCS all stayed constant as per IDF programmes, all the reduction in tech scores for both SP and FS = (-1.45) + (-9.58) = -11.03. Which means that her total score of 236.00 will drop to 224.97. This will still put her comfortably above Alina Zagitova's 216.06.

Thus, it is not really the presence of 3As alone that allowed her to win. It is a combination of high tech GOEs coupled with way above average presentation skills that ensures the judges cannot blatantly lowball her in PCS (or at least not that obviously low), that allows her to stay competitive even as a first year senior with Zagitova and he more senior skaters.

 

[zanadude]

Hmm, if the 3A (called <, BV + GOE = 6.13) she attempted in the SP and replace it with 2A (assuming it will be Finlandia standard, BV + GOE = 4.68), the reduction in SP scores will be from 76.55 to 75.10. If there is no 3A in the FS, I am going to assume that her FS layout will be similar to what she attempted in her junior season plus a choreo sequence. Using her junior GPF FS scores as reference (TES = 74.37) and adding in the possible scres for the ChSq based on her IdF attemp (BV 3.00 + GOE 1.43), her new theoretical total TES without 3As will be 78.8 => reduction of -9.58. Assuming the PCS all stayed constant as per IDF programmes, all the reduction in tech scores for both SP and FS = (-1.45) + (-9.58) = -11.03. Which means that her total score of 236.00 will drop to 224.97. This will still put her comfortably above Alina Zagitova's 216.06.

Thus, it is not really the presence of 3As alone that allowed her to win. It is a combination of high tech GOEs coupled with way above average presentation skills that ensures the judges cannot blatantly lowball her in PCS (or at least not that obviously low), that allows her to stay competitive even as a first year senior with Zagitova and he more senior skaters.

An even simpler comparison that avoids theoreticals is to compare PES scores. Zagitova had her clearly beat in that regard, so Kostornaia had to exceed her by an even greater margin with her technical prowess.

Granted my follow-up that "she won because of triple axels" was too simplistic, but my original point that all winners won by virtue of technical superiority still stands.

 

[Globetrotter]

An even simpler comparison that avoids theoreticals is to compare PES scores. Zagitova had her clearly beat in that regard, so Kostornaia had to exceed her by an even greater margin with her technical prowess.

Granted my follow-up that "she won because of triple axels" was too simplistic, but my original point that all winners won by virtue of technical superiority still stands.

Based on IdF scores, it is true that Zagitova has beaten Kostornaia in PCS. I think enough has been said about PCS. It certainly is one of the areas where the judging seriously need to be reworked. I really can't see where Zagitova is superior to Kostornaia in SS - the latter has visibly better glide, flow and holding of edges / edge changes. They are also about equal in TR. I will agree though that Zagitova has better IN - I do like the way she interpreted her music and her belief in the programme despite having to fight for her skates. In that aspect, Kostornaia can be considered (IMO) to have out PE Zagitova as she was visibly cleaner overall and had better posture and carriage (even though I personally dislike the second half of Kostornaia's music cut). You are right that Kostornaia did indeed win based on her stronger tech in this competition but I think it is also fair to say that she was not in any way deficient in PCS / artistry compared to Zagitova - although we all can debate until the earth stops rotating on PCS scoring adequacy.

 

[zanadude]

That's probably a discussion to continue in a more suitable topic.

Anyway, if the JSF wants to remain competitive, then they'll need to raise more Kihiras and less Hondas.

 

[Tolstoj]

That's probably a discussion to continue in a more suitable topic.

Anyway, if the JSF wants to remain competitive, then they'll need to raise more Kihiras and less Hondas.

I think they'll have at least to start teaching 3A earlier for all the new kids.

Eteri set a new standard in terms of technical difficulties, either you keep up or you will lag behind not only Russia but South Korea too. (and potentially US)

 

[Lunalovesskating]

I think they'll have at least to start teaching 3A earlier for all the new kids.

Eteri set a new standard in terms of technical difficulties, either you keep up or you will lag behind not only Russia but South Korea too. (and potentially US)

Considering that three Japanese Novice/Junior Ladies jumped a 3A this weekend at a national competition, Japan is doing just fine in that aspect.
https://twitter.com/figureskatingm1/status/1191217704750837761?s=20

 

[Tolstoj]

Considering that three Japanese Novice/Junior Ladies jumped a 3A this weekend at a national competition, Japan is doing just fine in that aspect.
https://twitter.com/figureskatingm1/status/1191217704750837761?s=20

Good, i hope i don't sound too harsh, but i don't think this JGP season in Ladies was a success for Japan.

Definitely not on par with the results of few years ago.

 

[Mishaminion]

Good, i hope i don't sound too harsh, but i don't think this JGP season in Ladies was a success for Japan.

Definitely not on par with the results of few years ago.

That's true.

It is unfortunate because there are plenty of very talented Japanese ladies of all ages, but they don't seem to be able to maximise their potential on the ice. Injury, nerves, tough competitions with stacked opponents, inconsistency... they're very unlucky sometimes.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

That's true.

It is unfortunate because there are plenty of very talented Japanese ladies, but they don't seem to be able to maximise their potential on the ice.

Two of the girls on the list I posted weren't on the JGP, they are still competing as Novice skaters like many more of the Japanese ladies skaters that are currently jumping 3As in national competitions.
Some of the Japanese Junior ladies that were on the JGP this season were suffering from injuries they got right before the JGP like Mana and Azusa, both were superb during the summer camp and then unfortunately injured themselves right after. Mana seems to have recovered well and had fantastic skates this week and won gold with only a fall on a fully rotated 3A in the Free but the rest of her programs was clean. Azusa also seems to have recovered slightly and skated better this week than during the JGP.

 

[Globetrotter]

I think they'll have at least to start teaching 3A earlier for all the new kids.

Eteri set a new standard in terms of technical difficulties, either you keep up or you will lag behind not only Russia but South Korea too. (and potentially US)

Actually, I had the impression that 3A has traditionally been a sort of trademark pride for the Japanese ladies, possibly a vestigial tribute to Midori Ito and Mao Asada. Somehow, the translation from juniors to seniors have recently been less than stellar. What Japan needs is more competitive nerves and less natural talent dependency. Eteri’s greatest gifts to me has always been making sure all her charges have the steely competitive fire to shape up or they are out.