2019-20 Russian Men's figure skating | Page 16 | Golden Skate

2019-20 Russian Men's figure skating

ewdokia

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Andrei Mozalev won his first event last season at the age of 15 with the quad toe, and missed the final and Junior Worlds for basically only 2 bad skates. (more understandable when you have quad in my opinion).
I see your point now. If Andrei bombed his skates, it’s because he started to do quads, if Artur skates not well at times due to that reason, he is unstable. Makes sense. :palmf:

And if we continue to compare apple and pears: when Andrei won his first JGP at age 15 his overall points were lower than Artur’s points in both JGP at age 15, as was his overall sum in points (1st + 6th vs. two 2nd place finishes). He also lost to Artur at Russian-Chinese Youth Games 2018 (and didn’t skate well there). But it’s again comparing apple with pears, when one skater already does quads and one does not. I see where last season’s instability came from in Andrei’s case. And unlike you I give the same benefit to Artur. :)

Nah i didn't peeve, and if that is how it reads that comment then sorry. I'm not judging nussnacker preferences, though not a mystery that personally among the muscovites i prefer Samsonov and in general i think SPB coaching style is better for the boys (step by step approach rather than rushing to get it done all at once)

Mine is more frustration when you watch the talented skater that "is supposed to win" because of the talent which is undeniable (he has the potential to become a star) and certainly a little bit of home push, and yet he doesn't for silly mistakes, partially his and from the coaches.
Then you might address rather Samsonov than Artur, cause it’s obviously Samsonov of whom RF wants to make the next big thing. Look at his PCS scores with two big mistakes at his short in Riga. You won’t get such scores at your first JGP ever with two mistakes unless you have heavy support from your own fed. But looks like you are not frustrated here, as like you mentioned, you prefer Samsonov, so if he is overscored due to political games - nevermind. :rolleye:

All the other russian skaters don't have these huge help, if they bomb their early events, they're almost gone for good, despite the so called "lack of depth" (which is false in my opinion).
Alexei Erohov for example would have been allowed to go to JW 2019 based on the result of RJN if he was not injured. He didn’t compete in any Junior events before that season, so what are you talking about? :confused: It’s not Artur’s fault that some boys skated better in JGP in season 2018/19, but then bombed (worse than him) at the decisive RJN so he placed ahead of them. Both times he went to JW he qualified for that based on his better placements at RJN.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I see your point now. If Andrei bombed his skates, it’s because he started to do quads, if Artur skates not well at times due to that reason, he is unstable. Makes sense. :palmf:

And if we continue to compare apple and pears: when Andrei won his first JGP at age 15 his overall points were lower than Artur’s points in both JGP at age 15, as was his overall sum in points (1st + 6th vs. two 2nd place finishes). He also lost to Artur at Russian-Chinese Youth Games 2018 (and didn’t skate well there). But it’s again comparing apple with pears, when one skater already does quads and one does not. I see where last season’s instability came from in Andrei’s case. And unlike you I give the same benefit to Artur. :)

Quads are the most difficult elements, you can read hundreds of interviews and books from current and former skaters and specialists and they all say that you can work on getting consistent all the triples every time, but the quad adds that level of uncertainty due to fast rotation required and the height and distance, and it gets even harder if it is in the second half of if it is higher than usual.

Even the best skaters in the world falls on quads, and it's not just those elements alone, keep in mind you still have the rest of the program to skate on tired legs after a fall on a quad. That's why to me after watching more than a decade of figure skating, i can understand a little more a bombed program if it has quads in it.

It's really not comparing apples vs oranges to me: they compete in the same circuit, with the same rules, and there is not much age difference between the two.

Now jumps aren't everything as we all know, and i had already said Danielian is more polished on other aspects.

Then you might address rather Samsonov than Artur, cause it’s obviously Samsonov of whom RF wants to make the next big thing. Look at his PCS scores with two big mistakes at his short in Riga. You won’t get such scores at your first JGP ever with two mistakes unless you have heavy support from your own fed. But looks like you are not frustrated here, as like you mentioned, you prefer Samsonov, so if he is overscored due to political games - nevermind. :rolleye:

Let's talk about it though, is Samsonov really that overscored?

He skates really fast, good skating skills and flow, he has difficult transitions into the elements, the technical contents are ambitious by junior standards, he has exceptionally fast spins with great positions too,... I'm not frustrated because the talent is there and they maximize the scoring potential, working on the details.

While despite Danielian's great talent, he always loses a lot of points even beyond the mistakes on the jumps, on spins, steps sequence which should be one of his strenghts: these are issues that should be addressed by coaches and choreographers if they want him to be a potential world champion one day.

If Samsonov bombed two JGP seasons in a row, never medalling but still getting the JW assignments i'd criticize that too.

Alexei Erohov for example would have been allowed to go to JW 2019 based on the result of RJN if he was not injured. He didn’t compete in any Junior events before that season, so what are you talking about? :confused: It’s not Artur’s fault that some boys skated better in JGP in season 2018/19, but then bombed (worse than him) at the decisive RJN so he placed ahead of them. Both times he went to JW he qualified for that based on his better placements at RJN

I wasn't happy about Erokhov's situation but to be fair he was the reigning junior world champion.
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
I'm not a big fan of Artur, because he never seems very happy on the ice to me...but how can anyone say he "bombed" when he lost gold by mere tenths of a point in Chelyabinsk and broke the men's SP record? And he was in 1st after the SP in Zagreb. He earned 2 silver medals. He made mistakes, it happens. There is no junior man, or senior man for that matter, who wins gold every single time. You're holding him to an impossible standard.
 

RemyRose

YOLO
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Country
United-States
Nah i didn't peeve, and if that is how it reads that comment then sorry. I'm not judging nussnacker preferences, though not a mystery that personally among the muscovites i prefer Samsonov and in general i think SPB coaching style is better for the boys (step by step approach rather than rushing to get it done all at once)

Mine is more frustration when you watch the talented skater that "is supposed to win" because of the talent which is undeniable (he has the potential to become a star) and certainly a little bit of home push, and yet he doesn't for silly mistakes, partially his and from the coaches.

I don't care who you prefer or the reasons, you came across as being petty. That comment didn't warrent such a reaction. You basically rained on that poster's parade and I didn't appreciate it.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I'm not a big fan of Artur, because he never seems very happy on the ice to me...but how can anyone say he "bombed" when he lost gold by mere tenths of a point in Chelyabinsk and broke the men's SP record? And he was in 1st after the SP in Zagreb. He earned 2 silver medals. He made mistakes, it happens. There is no junior man, or senior man for that matter, who wins gold every single time. You're holding him to an impossible standard.

When i said "bombed" i was referring to his past seasons like JGP Croatia two years ago or JGP Armenia last year, he's getting better this season, though keeping similar contents and with the flaws for the most part not addressed (i noticed a better inside edge on the flip, there's that)

I don't care who you prefer or the reasons, you came across as being petty. That comment didn't warrent such a reaction. You basically rained on that poster's parade and I didn't appreciate it.

Okay, opinions are mine, it seems you read too much into these comments.
 

ewdokia

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
You're right about him being able to deliver under pressure at the big events although i'd argue RusFed gave him the benefit of the doubt for two seasons in a row with tickets for Junior Worlds, despite not great performances at the JGP events. All the other russian skaters don't have these huge help, if they bomb their early events, they're almost gone for good, despite the so called "lack of depth" (which is false in my opinion)
Season 2018/19 Artur placed 4th and 5th at his JGP events and the overall difference in points from both JGP to Mozalev (1st and 6th), who you praise for skating so well that season in JGP was less than 6 (!!!) points. Andrei was lucky to skate in a weaker field of competitors in his first JGP-event. So I don’t understand which bombing you are talking about? In particular when Artur beat Andrei at his 2nd JGP (4th vs. 6th place). Pretending Artur bombed his JGP in season 2018/19 IMO comes close to lying. :mad:

The season before Artur admittedly skated badly in his JGP-event and as you like to argue he gets special treatment he was punished like it’s done with others and didn’t get a 2nd JGP. But he took his chance and skated well at RJN the decisive event to qualify. Feels you are just sour that your favorites didn’t make it. Andrei Mozalev placed 17th at RJN; Petr Gumenik 8th. Both didn’t even appear in JGP that season. So where is your point Artur got special treatment over them? :rolleye:


When i said "bombed" i was referring to his past seasons like JGP Croatia two years ago or JGP Armenia last year,
See above, saying Artur bombed has nothing to do with reality. :noshake:


Even the best skaters in the world falls on quads, and it's not just those elements alone, keep in mind you still have the rest of the program to skate on tired legs after a fall on a quad. That's why to me after watching more than a decade of figure skating, i can understand a little more a bombed program if it has quads in it.
Interestingly you seem to take this into consideration only in favor of your favorites. But that’s what your whole posts come across: you are biased towards your favorite skaters (or maybe some coaching teams), so you apply different standards to your liking. :rolleye:


they compete in the same circuit, with the same rules, and there is not much age difference between the two
I don't understand your point here? Nobody denies that Andrei skated better than Artur this season. Andrei was better resultwise and rightly so. However, point is Artur has a freshly learned quad, he is almost 1 year younger and given his age he did quite well. It does not take away accomplishements of other skaters. :confused:


Let's talk about it though, is Samsonov really that overscored?

He skates really fast, good skating skills and flow, he has difficult transitions into the elements, the technical contents are ambitious by junior standards, he has exceptionally fast spins with great positions too,...
Ambitious for junior standards? Your own words here: “they compete in the same circuit, with the same rules, and there is not much age difference between the two.”
So why should PCS take into account that Samsonov shows decent skills for his age? :scratch2: But yes, let’s talk about overscoring: Artur got all level 4 on his steps and spins in Tchelyabinsk. He also has good skating skills and flows, transitions, the same tech content, musicality, still he got less than 1,57 points more in PCS than Danil for a program with flaws that effected the overall performance while Artur was visibly on fire in Russia. So yes, Danil was overscored.


I wasn't happy about Erokhov's situation but to be fair he was the reigning junior world champion.
And to be fair Artur was the reigning vice-champion. Following your argumentation he also should have had a bonus. However, there is no rule which gives the reigning champions or medalists a bye to ISU Championships when they skate badly next season (though I think ISU should introduce such a rule).

And who else would you have sent? Mozalev finishing 11th at RJN that year? :confused:
 
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Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Qualified for JGP Final based on standings

Andrei Mozalev - 30 pts
Yuma Kagiyama - 28 pts
Petr Gumennik - 28 pts
Daniil Samsonov - 26 pts
Daniel Grassl - 26 pts
Shun Sato - 26 pts
 

RemyRose

YOLO
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Country
United-States
Congrats to all the skaters that participated in the JGP.
Total tally:
4 golds, 3 silvers and 4 bronzes! That's over 50% of all the medals!

Congrats to Samsonov, Gumennik and Mozalev for qualifying to not only the JGPF but also Senior nats!!!

Skate America begins in less than 2 wks! Good luck to all the senior guys!
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Congrats to all the skaters that participated in the JGP.
Total tally:
4 golds, 3 silvers and 4 bronzes! That's over 50% of all the medals!

Congrats to Samsonov, Gumennik and Mozalev for qualifying to not only the JGPF but also Senior nats!!!

Skate America begins in less than 2 wks! Good luck to all the senior guys!

Yes, it was only Gumennik last year, now three and even the others who did not qualify for the finals did not ashamed themselves. Seems that russian men's skating is finaly rising again as those weren't just solitary successes but overally good quality.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Yes, it was only GUmennik last year, now three and even the others who did not qualify for the finals did not ashamed themselves. Seems that russiam men's skating is finaly rising again as those weren't just solitary successes but overally good quality.

yes overall they all did great, better than the girls which is surprising, i can't remember the last time that happened.

There are more who didn't get the assignments (age or didn't qualify) that are also very good: i was impressed by Ugozhaev and Semenenko at the early cup of russia events.
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
yes overall they all did great, better than the girls which is surprising, i can't remember the last time that happened.

2016-17, 4 Russian boys qualified and only 3 Russian girls.

As usual they get more or less ignored, though. No fanfare for the guys who fought to make it, but 10,000 pages about the girls. I'm tired of it, honestly. Well, congratulations to Andrei, Petr, and Daniil from me.
 
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