2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Fried]

weak knee and ankle bends for her (and Trusova) certainly figure in there.

Sasha is working on it.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBupV91KZOv/?igshid=hbqktpq2j6h6

 

[Shayuki]

I don't particularly care about Shcherbackova's jumps. I'm worried about her skating skills. She's really lacking with the way she moves her blades across the ice - very laboured, with very weak knee and ankle bends. It causes her to lag the music at times too. For a skater with clear talent in the artistic regards, that is irritating to see. It's a problem with a lot of the Eteri camp.

Anna's skating skills have always been her biggest weakness for sure. And it does take away from some of her performing, indeed.

Nevertheless, with current judging system, lvl 4 step sequences are granted for reputation and PCS scoring isn't taking skating skills into account very much at all, so I doubt it'll matter very much for her. Skating skills just are something for the viewers to enjoy, but don't really matter in modern figure skating.

I guess the current juniors you might enjoy more as both Valieva and Usacheva have significantly better skating skills than the vast majority of the older Eteri girls. Then Akatieva probably has better still.

 

[Happy Skates]

Not better than Sasha. She also won all competitions in her first junior season and, unlike Kamila landed 2 clean quads. Scores are also comparable(225.52 vs. 227.30) especially considering the different scoring systems and inflation.

I love both Sasha and Kamila, but I just think Kamila was a bit more consistent with her quad in her first junior season, and is extremely well-rounded, but yes, definitely comparable. All I'm saying is that it is very possible that Kamila will be at or above the level of the 3A come 2022.

 

[Mathman]

...PCS scoring isn't taking skating skills into account very much at all,..

I always had the opposite impression. To me, it seems like the judges give a mark for skating skills, and then just automatically repeat it 4 more times for the other components (with TR an automatic .5 lower for some reason).

 

[Mathman]

About knees, the only mention in the Skating Skills definition is "rhythmic knee action." I'm not 100% sure what that means -- I guess that the skater should not be too herky-jerky while propelling herself across the ice..I think that for the casual viewer the only time "knees" are noticible is when a skater has "soft knees" on a jump landing -- don't come down all stiff-legged with a jolt. (Although some skarters overdo it by crouching too low to the ice to save the jump.)

Here are the details of "Skating Skills" the ISU judges are supposed to be on the lookout for.

Criteria:

Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement Flow and effortless glide
Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.

Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.

Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle.

Multi directional skating
Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.

Mastery of one foot skating
No over use of skating on two feet.

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

I love both Sasha and Kamila, but I just think Kamila was a bit more consistent with her quad in her first junior season, and is extremely well-rounded, but yes, definitely comparable. All I'm saying is that it is very possible that Kamila will be at or above the level of the 3A come 2022.

In my humble opinion, Kamila is the best skater in the world right now. Tell me who can beat her jumps, skating skills, performance ability, and most of all spins. Maybe Rika or Kostornaia can beat her in SS, Sasha in jumps, many in performance ability, and the other top juniors (Alysa, Ksenia, Dasha) come close in spins but nobody can put it all together in one package like her.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

About knees, the only mention in the Skating Skills definition is "rhythmic knee action." I'm not 100% sure what that means -- I guess that the skater should not be too herky-jerky while propelling herself across the ice..I think that for the casual viewer the only time "knees" are noticible is when a skater has "soft knees" on a jump landing -- don't come down all stiff-legged with a jolt. (Although some skarters overdo it by crouching too low to the ice to save the jump.)

Here are the details of "Skating Skills" the ISU judges are supposed to be on the lookout for.

Criteria:

Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement Flow and effortless glide
Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.

Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.

Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle.

Multi directional skating
Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.

Mastery of one foot skating
No over use of skating on two feet.

The way rhythmic knee action is most effectively demonstrated is during cross overs. However, it's simply not physically possible to demonstrate the same rhythmic knee action if you want to demonstrate more of steps and turns, multi directional skating and one foot skating which are, as you wrote, also the equal criteria of skating skills. Some skaters can choose to demonstrate speed and motion during their skating (a la Joubert) instead of long lines and elegance (Lambiel). Different skaters can take different strategies to present their skating skills, as they can take different strategies to present any of other components. If skaters don't skate the same way Carolina Kostner did, that doesn't necessarily mean their SS are far worse than hers. The same way, when Caro did less connecting moves through her steps and turns that didn't necessarily mean her transition score should be that lower, if she could connect her technical elements with some simple but still effective body movement. The point is - there are multiple criteria for every of component, and skaters can be equally scored on them by 'exploit' different criteria written there. There is no only one right way to skate, like some people want to present it.

 

[starlight97]

Speaking of Kamila, does anybody by chance have a GIF or a slow mo of her layback to Bielman ? She has a very particular way of raising her leg up into Lipnitskaya position, the transition looks spectacular (and like a back injury in the making)

 

[Scott512]

In my humble opinion, Kamila is the best skater in the world right now. Tell me who can beat her jumps, skating skills, performance ability, and most of all spins. Maybe Rika or Kostornaia can beat her in SS, Sasha in jumps, many in performance ability, and the other top juniors (Alysa, Ksenia, Dasha) come close in spins but nobody can put it all together in one package like her.

Aliona is best. Kamila will challenge her when she is a senior. Is Killa Kamila eligible for senior Rusnats this year?

But I don't discount how good Valieva is. She is so good that Alysa Liu is off to a great start in her career winning two senior national championships at 13 and 14 has panicked and changed coaches. Why? Because kamila is on another level.

 

[Mathman]

Killa Kamila

 

[Amei]

Would anyone dare to call the four quads girl the weakest one just two years ago?

No, but at that time she was the only skater consistently doing quads in competition; now she's not the only skater competing multiple quad or tripe axels, and while perhaps "weakest" seems a strange word to describe someone with the quad arsenal that she has, she's 1 of the most vulnerable skaters since she has proven to be inconsistent with those quad jumps in competition (its irrelevant what she can do in practice, you don't get gold medals for practice) and at this point she has nothing else to go for in her skating, no real performance to the music and she always looks disinterested when doing anything outside of jumping. Shcherbakova was not clean at the GPF or Europeans but she has the spins and performance aspect that can help make up for any points she loses for unclean jumping passes.

 

[Skatesocs]

I always had the opposite impression. To me, it seems like the judges give a mark for skating skills, and then just automatically repeat it 4 more times for the other components (with TR an automatic .5 lower for some reason).

It doesn't take actual skating skills into account. It takes a reputation into account, the number of transitions done, and then they craft an "SS" score. This "SS" score is then repeated four more times.

About knees, the only mention in the Skating Skills definition is "rhythmic knee action." I'm not 100% sure what that means -- I guess that the skater should not be too herky-jerky while propelling herself across the ice.

If you look at the skating of Asada, especially in the step sequences, how she changes her directions so easily while on one foot, you'll see what "soft knee" means.

There is no only one right way to skate, like some people want to present it.

And yet, all the people you mentioned, and several others, demonstrate better "rhythmic knee action" in their one foot skating, transitions, and step sequences than Shcherbackova and Trusova. I do not know where you got this strange understanding of how some Eteri skaters demonstrate poor knees only because they're doing a ton of transitions.

 

[Scott512]

That's her modern-day rap name.

Hoping she can skate at senior Nationals this yea.r

 

[hanca]

In my humble opinion, Kamila is the best skater in the world right now. Tell me who can beat her jumps, skating skills, performance ability, and most of all spins. Maybe Rika or Kostornaia can beat her in SS, Sasha in jumps, many in performance ability, and the other top juniors (Alysa, Ksenia, Dasha) come close in spins but nobody can put it all together in one package like her.

Let’s wait with handing out the medals for ‘the best skater in the world’. At the moment, Kamila is still nothing. Yes, she won junior worlds, but that doesn’t mean anything. Who can guarantee that she won’t end up like Polina Tsurskaya? Ok, Polina had to withdraw from junior worlds, but then again she had junior Olympics she won, and same as Kamila she also won all her competitions in her first junior season except of senior nationals. And then .... well, we know what happened. Let’s celebrate ‘the best skater in the world’ after her first senior season.

 

[brakes]

Let's not be cocky. Chinese national champion An Xiangyi enters the junior circuit this year and we may expect Japan and Korea brings to the table some talents as well. Who'd heard about Marin Honda before her World Championship season?
It might be very competitive season for Kamila even on JGP.

 

[Mathman]

It doesn't take actual skating skills into account. It takes a reputation into account, the number of transitions done, and then they craft an "SS" score. This "SS" score is then repeated four more times.

It seems to my observation that the most important factor in SS is speed (perhaps because it is easiest to judge). Next is "effortless acceleration." As for "reputation," the skater has to build one first before she gets any benefit from the judges. No one is born with reputation. Often I think that what is decried by "reputation judging" is simply that the best skaters are the best skaters. Does Yuzuru Hanyu get high PCs because he has the reputation of being an outstanding skater or because he is an outstanding skater?

With regard to transitions, for some reason the judges almost always make this their lowest PCS mark. Again, I have supposed that this is because it is the easiest to judge objectively, so the judges are not of a mind to "give the skater the benefit of the doubt," as they are for Interpretation and Performance.

I agree that Mao Asada demonstrated beautiful one-footed skating (but so did Irina Slutskaya who was more of a power skater). Compared to Alexandra Trusova, Trusova is more interested in doing quads than in having pretty knees. And she gets lower PCSs (and higher TES scores). More than one way to skin a cat. It's all good, to me.

 

[Skatesocs]

Compared to Alexandra Trusova, Trusova is more interested in doing quads than in having pretty knees. And she gets lower PCSs (and higher TES scores). More than one way to skin a cat. It's all good, to me.

I'm fine with different approaches to skating. But I disagree that the two I mentioned get low PCS.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The way rhythmic knee action is most effectively demonstrated is during cross overs. However, it's simply not physically possible to demonstrate the same rhythmic knee action if you want to demonstrate more of steps and turns, multi directional skating and one foot skating which are, as you wrote, also the equal criteria of skating skills. Some skaters can choose to demonstrate speed and motion during their skating (a la Joubert) instead of long lines and elegance (Lambiel).

Inaccurate. Crossovers are hardly the only way to show rhythmic knee action (ex: this series of turns is literally a series of "knee action"), and it's possible to have "speed and motion" and "long lines and elegance" in the same program. The example you tried to use is way offbase too, as Lambiel didn't have particularly long lines, and used more body motion in his skating than Joubert. Long lines and elegance aren't exactly tied to skating skills to begin with; just look at Caroline Zhang for an example.

It would be relatively accurate to say it's not possible to have a program consisting mainly of long edges and, at the same time, have a program consisting of constant steps and turns. However, that doesn't mean it's not possible to see how someone is lacking in quality, just because they are doing constant steps and turns. The depth and security of the edges, the ability to transfer between movements, the ability to move across the ice with proper posture and usage of the blade and knee - all of this can be seen. You can also do deep knee bend while doing many of the transitions that Eteri skaters try to do. Her skaters simply aren't taught to do it or don't have the ability.

People are always doing crossovers in programs anyway. They are not magically extinct just because someone like Eteri is trying to clutter the programs with nonsense. Those times in the programs where the crossovers are happening, the skater's ability with that movement can still be seen. Crossovers have become sadly demonized in this recent era of skating, and it's interesting that you basically try write them off as unimportant. You tried to make it sound like your argument was "both ways to demonstrate skating skills are equally valuable", but in actuality your argument just gives skaters a free pass if you consider them to be doing more transitions. Since, to you, doing more transitions inherently means they should be excluded from other considerations.

Also important, "rhythmic knee action" does not mean "deep knees". One of the reasons why the Eteri school of ice skating is so problematic, is because many of the movements in those programs DON'T have rhythm to them. They are just transitions thrown in for the sake of it. It's easier to do transitions like that with no other purpose, with no specific dance-like timing and meaning behind them, no precise musicality. I had a similar problem with Patrick Chan and how his PCS got overscored - being able to show deep edges and ability to gain efficient power across the ice is NOT rhythm. You can do all the "turns, multi-directional skating, and one-foot skating" you want, but that doesn't mean you are showing complete or satisfying skating. With so many of the Eteri programs, the skater is lacking the depth of edge/knee, AND the rhythm, AND the posture, AND the bigger artistic purpose. This overall kind of skating being so rewarded and normalized is a HUGE problem (for over a decade now, ugh, we've been stuck here basically ever since Evan Lysacek's despicable 2010 victory). The bad judging and the narrowness of the scoring system, and people taking some things written on paper too literally, has perpetuated this hellish alternate-reality state of figure skating that needs to be fixed.

 

[Skatesocs]

Inaccurate. Crossovers are hardly the only way to show rhythmic knee action (ex: this series of turns is literally a series of "knee action"), and it's possible to have "speed and motion" and "long lines and elegance" in the same program. The example you tried to use is way offbase too, as Lambiel didn't have particularly long lines, and used more body motion in his skating than Joubert. Long lines and elegance aren't exactly tied to skating skills to begin with; just look at Caroline Zhang for an example.

It would be relatively accurate to say it's not possible to have a program consisting mainly of long edges and, at the same time, have a program consisting of constant steps and turns. However, that doesn't mean it's not possible to see how someone is lacking in quality, just because they are doing constant steps and turns. The depth and security of the edges, the ability to transfer between movements, the ability to move across the ice with proper posture and usage of the blade and knee - all of this can be seen. You can also do deep knee bend while doing many of the transitions that Eteri skaters try to do. Her skaters simply aren't taught to do it or don't have the ability.

People are always doing crossovers in programs anyway. They are not magically extinct just because someone like Eteri is trying to clutter the programs with nonsense. Those times in the programs where the crossovers are happening, the skater's ability with that movement can still be seen. Crossovers have become sadly demonized in this recent era of skating, and it's interesting that you basically try write them off as unimportant. You tried to make it sound like your argument was "both ways to demonstrate skating skills are equally valuable", but in actuality your argument just gives skaters a free pass if you consider them to be doing more transitions. Since, to you, doing more transitions inherently means they should be excluded from other considerations.

Also important, "rhythmic knee action" does not mean "deep knees". One of the reasons why the Eteri school of ice skating is so problematic, is because many of the movements in those programs DON'T have rhythm to them. They are just transitions thrown in for the sake of it. It's easier to do transitions like that with no other purpose, with no specific dance-like timing and meaning behind them, no precise musicality. I had a similar problem with Patrick Chan and how his PCS got overscored - being able to show deep edges and ability to gain efficient power across the ice is NOT rhythm. You can do all the "turns, multi-directional skating, and one-foot skating" you want, but that doesn't mean you are showing complete or satisfying skating. With so many of the Eteri programs, the skater is lacking the depth of edge/knee, AND the rhythm, AND the posture, AND the bigger artistic purpose. This overall kind of skating being so rewarded and normalized is a HUGE problem (for over a decade now, ugh). The bad judging and the narrowness of the scoring system, and people taking some things written on paper too literally, has perpetuated this hellish alternate-reality state of figure skating that needs to be fixed.

Opened link, was disappointed it wasn't Dralion.

ETA: and then you even give a reason for why I wouldn't want Chan there lol

 

[nussnacker]

Aliona is best. Kamila will challenge her when she is a senior. Is Killa Kamila eligible for senior Rusnats this year?

But I don't discount how good Valieva is. She is so good that Alysa Liu is off to a great start in her career winning two senior national championships at 13 and 14 has panicked and changed coaches. Why? Because kamila is on another level.

True, I guess we’ll see Kamila, Daria, Maia at RusNats this year! would be interesting to see them go up against all other girls, that’s going to be one exciting competition, that for sure.