2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Skatesocs]

Moving forward, any and all discussions of coaches should be posted here:

Coaches' Corner

This thread is for discussions of any and all figure skating coaches, their methods, styles, etc. While not a "Fan Fest" thread, members are still expected to abide by the Terms of Use and Forum Guidelines.

www.goldenskate.com

Queen!

 

[Skatesocs]

I think Kostornaya could not take anymore to be apart from Sergei Rozanov - her favourite coach. So she joined PA. And after that Sergei could not leave her in the rain.

This isn't AO3.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

This isn't AO3.

Um, she said it herself - that he is indeed her favourite coach.
In Russian:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfKdgYoWAAAiLBc.jpg:small

And English:

Twitter

 

[Edwin]

“I don’t like the word “diet ”- you can't tell girls “ sew your mouth shut ”. A touching interview with skater Yelena Radionova

Transcript from a IG live stream:

 

[mdl]

I guess you belong to the "Two Wrongs Make A Right" school of thought.
Or is this more to do with "Whattaboutism"?

Gee, why am I not surprised that you would automatically "blame" Alina.
Not even knowing exactly what her role was in that fiasco.
But you word it as such to make it seem she gave it to them so they could publish it.

But hey, let's continue to play the "blame game" and go back to the beginning.
Who done who wrong first???? Plushy - by publicly stating how Alina sought out his advice on quads.
Surely he must have known that would cause grief for Alina with a coach who doesn't like "betrayals".

where do you see blame? But any action has its consequences.
For Plushenko this caused another backlash so why he can not explain his position?
Or he can be attacked as much as they want, but he just should keep silent and low...

For Alina's role - I just saw a private correspondence of Alina published by Team Tutberidze in Istagram.
How they got it?
If it was posted without her consent, she should have stated this, but she didn't.
And may be at first place Alina should have not reveal it to them at all and thus she would be spared from the grief, if such at all.

 

[Resa]

Moving forward, any and all discussions of coaches should be posted at the link below or in their individual Fan Fest thread:

Coaches' Corner

This thread is for discussions of any and all figure skating coaches, their methods, styles, etc. While not a "Fan Fest" thread, members are still expected to abide by the Terms of Use and Forum Guidelines.

www.goldenskate.com

Thank you! This was much needed. I hope this thread will stay on topic now. (Or at least more often)

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Interesting that the ISU considers the toe loop as the most commonly cheated and yet most of the obsession surrounding pre-rotation seems to be centred around flips and lutzes.

It’s almost as if people are conflating pre rotation with actual “cheated jump takeoff” like toe axels (a la Meissner or Nguyen).

I mean toe loop is the most commonly cheated jump. Most people have more PR on their toe loop than on flips or lutzes. Maybe because everyone knows toe loops aren't going to have 90 degrees or less PR, they don't stress so much on observing them. But flips and lutzes on the other hand can have a wide range of PR.

 

[Alex65]

I mean toe loop is the most commonly cheated jump. Most people have more PR on their toe loop than on flips or lutzes. Maybe because everyone knows toe loops aren't going to have 90 degrees or less PR, they don't stress so much on observing them. But flips and lutzes on the other hand can have a wide range of PR.

I have never understood this topic of pre-rotation. This is never not displayed in the protocols and is not even noticeable in real time on the ice. Nadia, do you like Camila's jumps? Everyone likes it. And to the judges too. And she has a noticeably greater pre-rotation than Anna.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

I think that it does not spoil the jump if it aesthetically pleasing, athletically, and looks effortless.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I have never understood this topic of pre-rotation. This is never not displayed in the protocols and is not even noticeable in real time on the ice. Nadia, do you like Camila's jumps? Everyone likes it. And to the judges too. And she has a noticeably greater pre-rotation than Anna.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

I think that it does not spoil the jump if it aesthetically pleasing, athletically, and looks effortless.

No, I do not like them. I like Alexia Paganini's jumps. I think that the BV of the flips and the lutzes which are not with minimal pre-rotation should be reduced by 15%. The BV of excessively pre-rotated flips and lutzes should be reduced by 30%.
Alexia should be showered with crazy GOE.
And I do not get why skaters with bad technique like Valieva are main OGM contenders.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No, I do not like them. I like Alexia Paganini's jumps. I think that the BV of the flips and the lutzes which are not with minimal pre-rotation should be reduced by 15%. The BV of excessively pre-rotated flips and lutzes should be reduced by 30%.
Alexia should be showered with crazy GOE.
And I do not get why skaters with bad technique like Valieva are main OGM contenders.

Hm, Alexia lutz is barely rotated on the landing, and has no good flow and distance. I saw her lutz live, it is certainly not the most exciting jump to watch, believe me. It can be a fine jump, but nothing more than that. Jump is not only about the takeoff, especially not when you watching it in front of you.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I have never understood this topic of pre-rotation. This is never not displayed in the protocols and is not even noticeable in real time on the ice. Nadia, do you like Camila's jumps? Everyone likes it. And to the judges too. And she has a noticeably greater pre-rotation than Anna.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

I think that it does not spoil the jump if it aesthetically pleasing, athletically, and looks effortless.

I don't really care about PR, since when I watch figure skating I don't watch for all the tiny details and URs and flaws. But PR is real, and as someone who likes stats and (sometimes) math, it's fun to try to analyze my favorite jumps further. It is noticeable on ice though, the difference between somehow who rotates 90 degrees and someone who rotates 180 degrees is relatively noticeable (especially with the "full blade" technique). Again, this brings our conversation back to the question, what are the rules for judging? The ones in the ISU handbook, or the unwritten rules that judges seem to abide by?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't really care about PR, since when I watch figure skating I don't watch for all the tiny details and URs and flaws. But PR is real, and as someone who likes stats and (sometimes) math, it's fun to try to analyze my favorite jumps further. It is noticeable on ice though, the difference between somehow who rotates 90 degrees and someone who rotates 180 degrees is relatively noticeable (especially with the "full blade" technique). Again, this brings our conversation back to the question, what are the rules for judging? The ones in the ISU handbook, or the unwritten rules that judges seem to abide by?

But it is not noticeable live, that's the whole point. What is noticeable is skater's landing, as also height and distance and how the jump 'looks' in the air

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I don't really care about PR, since when I watch figure skating I don't watch for all the tiny details and URs and flaws. But PR is real, and as someone who likes stats and (sometimes) math, it's fun to try to analyze my favorite jumps further. It is noticeable on ice though, the difference between somehow who rotates 90 degrees and someone who rotates 180 degrees is relatively noticeable (especially with the "full blade" technique). Again, this brings our conversation back to the question, what are the rules for judging? The ones in the ISU handbook, or the unwritten rules that judges seem to abide by?

Exactly. I notice the difference in real time too.
I love Alexia's lutz:

https://youtu.be/FD_f_k2iQtY

I wonder... If the BV of all of Anna's lutzes is first reduced by 15% because of her flat edge and then by additional 30% because of excessive pre-rotation. Hmmm... Then the BV of her flips should be reduced again by 30% because of excessive pre-rotaton. And finally why she receives crazy GOE If most of her jumps do not have much height or distance?
If she was judged fairly she would not be breaking any world records.

 

[moonkat]

Exactly. I notice the difference in real time too.
I love Alexia's lutz:

https://youtu.be/FD_f_k2iQtY

I wonder... If the BV of all of Anna's lutzes is first reduced by 15% because of her flat edge and then by additional 30% because of excessive pre-rotation. Hmmm... Then the BV of her flips should be reduced again by 30% because of excessive pre-rotaton. And finally why she receives crazy GOE If most of her jumps do not have much height or distance?
If she was judged fairly she would not be braking any world records.

Eh at the end of the day everthing just needs to look landed

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

For any skaters, or people who understand physics of figure skating - does using PR make the jump easier? It does seem unfair to reward someone doing 3 revolutions and 2.25 revolutions the same amount of points, but if both are equally difficult then I guess it doesn't matter save for aesthetics.

 

[lesnar001]

When I think of lutzes that make me sit up and take notice....
I think of Karen Chen and Polina T.
It's just too bad the delayed rotation tends to make them prone to UR which in turn, kills their scores.

Alexia and Liza T may have "textbook" lutzes, but to me (just my opinion) they are just that.
Nothing that really stands out for me above and beyond being a textbook example.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

For any skaters, or people who understand physics of figure skating - does using PR make the jump easier? It does seem unfair to reward someone doing 3 revolutions and 2.25 revolutions the same amount of points, but if both are equally difficult then I guess it doesn't matter save for aesthetics.

It is not just the exact degree of a revolution what it is rewarded. For example, it is also more difficult to do a jump with preceding steeps or intricate entry, it is also more difficult to make a jump part of the programme in terms of music and the skating pattern, it is also more difficult to land a jump with the same flow as it is the start of the jump, it is also more difficult to have variations in the air positions etc etc So while a higher degree of the same number of revolutions is certainly a more difficult thing to do, besides that there are other things regarding jumps more difficult to do too. Simply saying, to jump above 2.5 revolutions (nobody is doing whole 3 revolutions in the air for a triple) outside of any context is difficult as to jump above 2.25 revolutions in the context of many other things.

 

[sparklestan]

For any skaters, or people who understand physics of figure skating - does using PR make the jump easier? It does seem unfair to reward someone doing 3 revolutions and 2.25 revolutions the same amount of points, but if both are equally difficult then I guess it doesn't matter save for aesthetics.

As a skater (doing double jumps), for me doing too much PR sometimes makes the jump easier, sometimes harder lol. Easier because there is less to rotate in the air of course. Harder because waiting too long on the take off, which is what causes too much PR, caused me to feel “tangled” in my own limbs. I feel stuck on the ice and I don’t get the height I usually would in a jump with a proper take off.

Of course, every skater will find whatever they practice with and learn and train on the easiest. If a skater learns their jump with lots of PR they will find that easiet. If they learn to jump with less PR they would probably find it awkward to try to jump with extra PR.

All jumps have some degree of PR built in, it’s just a matter of how much. This depends on the type of jump.

Hopefully this made sense and helped lol.

 

[Tolstoj]

When I think of lutzes that make me sit up and take notice....
I think of Karen Chen and Polina T.
It's just too bad the delayed rotation tends to make them prone to UR which in turn, kills their scores.

Alexia and Liza T may have "textbook" lutzes, but to me (just my opinion) they are just that.
Nothing that really stands out for me above and beyond being a textbook example.

Liza T deserves the praise among the russians to have still today one of the best jumping technique. The proper toe pick on the toe jumps, the big height, the almost lack of prerotation, the proper edge on the lutz.

Unfortunately she's not getting the marks cause that's her strenght but judges nowadays pretend it's all good, despite sea of flutzes not getting called, wrong toe picks, change of edge in between a combo,...

So if you take out that from her, the rest of her skating is not as good as the others, despite still being enjoyable to watch.

 

[YuBluByMe]

But it is not noticeable live, that's the whole point. What is noticeable is skater's landing, as also height and distance and how the jump 'looks' in the air

It is noticeable, though. It won’t be noticed by the average Joe Schmoe who doesn’t know a 3S from a 3Lo, but you best believe a bad jump will be noticed as such by one who’s been watching the sport for a while. As an example, I know full well what a 4Lz is supposed to look like. I also know what it’s not supposed to look like: shortened, cut off, butchered...as if missing an important piece. It’s like running 400m, but starting at the 200m mark. And so you only ran half the distance.