2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Jontor]

And Bradie Tennell WD from Skate America, which increases the chances of Daria Usacheva.

(Not that I would like to think this way, whom to remove to increase the chances of someone else. Everyone should be prepared to compete with anyone else on this level of course.)

True. It really came out wrong when I read it myself. I of course hope to see Tenell and Kihira later on.

 

[alexocfp]

Only the best athletes should compete for the top prize but that's not how figure skating is set up. The isu clearly does not agree with me.

If it makes you feel better, I’m in total agreement with you. Not that me agreeing changes anything. Haha

Quotas suck. And it not only punishes the beat countries, but also makes the competition easier for those top countries since they face lesser competition and so they defeat them easier.

What’s the closest, points wise, any non Russian has come to a Russian this year head to head? It’s been a massacre each and every time.

 

[flanker]

True. It really came out wrong when I read it myself. I of course hope to see Tenell and Kihira later on.

I don't blame you of anything wrong of course, it was just when I wrote the reply I suddenly felt bad about it.

 

[yume]

What’s the closest, points wise, any non Russian has come to a Russian this year head to head? It’s been a massacre each and every time.

Yeonjeong Park disagrees.

 

[flanker]

If it makes you feel better, I’m in total agreement with you. Not that me agreeing changes anything. Haha

Quotas suck. And it not only punishes the beat countries, but also makes the competition easier for those top countries since they face lesser competition and so they defeat them easier.

What’s the closest, points wise, any non Russian has come to a Russian this year head to head? It’s been a massacre each and every time.

In seniors Loena Hendrickx reached 212 at Finlandia, though that was very generously scored Finlandia, 6 points behind Aliona. Park Yeon-jeong also reached 212 at US Classic, 4 points behind Sasha. Alysa Liu received 219 at Lombardia, but there was no russian lady so no direct comparison.

 

[alexocfp]

Yeonjeong Park disagrees.

And she was fantastic. Everyone praised her at that event, including me. Definitely want to see more of her no doubt.

But, Trusova was a full on disaster, spend more time on the ground than on her feet, and still won by 4 points.

 

[LiamV426]

Kostornaia's odds at medalling at Skate Canada has now increased as Kihira has WD.

Poor Rika. She's clearly had a tough time. Tbh I never considered her much of a threat for the podium given the injury she's been dealing with.

Even without Rika I'm nervous for Aliona at SCI. Outside of her 2 compatriots she'll have Alysa and Wakaba contending for the podium, both of whom could have 3As ready. We've seen Wakaba do a beautiful one at Japan Open but she's never been the most consistent, whereas Alysa has been very consistent this season so far but hasn't done a clean 3A yet. It's going to pretty tense I think.

At the moment I'm still predicting a Russian sweep and hoping Aliona is in better shape than Finlandia. She needs to be on that podium or her chances of making the GPF go out the window. I hope she's ready to fight and can show a bit of the grit that Maia did at Budapest: when the first 4T didn't really work, she still went for the 2nd and added a combo. I guess the competition wasn't as intense there but Aliona needs to try and put 3*3As out at SCI, they don't all need to be clean but the BV will help her a lot.

 

[Scott512]

If it makes you feel better, I’m in total agreement with you. Not that me agreeing changes anything. Haha

Quotas suck. And it not only punishes the beat countries, but also makes the competition easier for those top countries since they face lesser competition and so they defeat them easier.

What’s the closest, points wise, any non Russian has come to a Russian this year head to head? It’s been a massacre each and every time.

That's exactly what's happened in recent years when the TT girls get out of domestic competition and get to the weaker competition internationally they dominate. The word you used was Massacre I'm not sure it will be that this season but I expect a lot of gold medals for TT ladies.

Yes I feel marginally better so thank you Alex.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I just think it’s so silly that PCS is based at all on reputation or expectation of technical elements. Kamila’s WR score was not just unexpected it was outrageous. I adore Maia but I don’t understand this scoring in comparison to a developed and artistic skater like Anna. It’s not just inconsistent across competitions, it’s inconsistent within them. That’s something the ISU should sort out but I have my doubts. I imagine that even though Anna skated better than Maia they are probably keen to leverage quads and *feminism* for some work capital and marketing at the Olympic Games and are therefore harshly punishing those who don’t complete them in competition by downgrading the other unrelated scores elements.

To be objective, Anna was dealing with an injury, and as an effect of that she most likely didn't skate to her full potential yet. While we sometimes think that performance is related only to the skaters inherent ability, it is really more a product of the training process. Maia (as Kamila) had much more training behind her and she is certainly better prepared for a competition at this point of the season. But the season is still young, so...

 

[bookofcharms]

Do all of the Tutberidze skaters have to get their dresses made by the same dressmaker? I assume there is an agreement for Olga to provide all the dresses for the team.

However, I do really think it would help the girls stand out from each other if they had a more distinctive style.

The dresses this year all do look very similar to each other and very clearly all made by the same designer. Almost a bit like a Tutberidze uniform.

I think at one point, there something good about clearly being dressed like a Tutberidze skater, but there’s now been a few ‘generations’ of the girls come through looking like that, so it has had its expiration date.

A Lisa McKinnon style dress or something clearly made elsewhere etc would go a long way to make Kostornaya or Shcherbakova stand out more and look more senior and unique.

However I don’t know if that’s an option. And I will say that I know the girls like Olgas dresses because they are very functional (very light, simple to put on, can’t malfunction etc)

 

[icybear]

I just think it’s so silly that PCS is based at all on reputation or expectation of technical elements. Kamila’s WR score was not just unexpected it was outrageous. I adore Maia but I don’t understand this scoring in comparison to a developed and artistic skater like Anna. It’s not just inconsistent across competitions, it’s inconsistent within them. That’s something the ISU should sort out but I have my doubts. I imagine that even though Anna skated better than Maia they are probably keen to leverage quads and *feminism* for some work capital and marketing at the Olympic Games and are therefore harshly punishing those who don’t complete them in competition by downgrading the other unrelated scores elements.

What has landing quads got to do with feminism? Men with higher tech tend to get higher pcs too. Judges have always given extra pcs for cleaner and more difficult programs. So why would judges doing the same for ladies somehow equate to some hidden feminism propaganda?

 

[bookofcharms]

Well I do think that for marketing purposes skating would LOVE for quads to win the OGM. So much fuss about the triple axel last Olympics. Just imagine the media hype about quads.

The whole sport has changed in the last 4 years. Regular folk haven’t even realised that yet!

 

[Baron Vladimir]

What has landing quads got to do with feminism? Men with higher tech tend to get higher pcs too. Judges have always given extra pcs for cleaner and more difficult programs. So why would judges doing the same for ladies somehow equate to some hidden feminism propaganda?

For cleaner and more difficult programmes of course yes, but more difficult is not only related to the jumps/quads. Ask Jason Brown for that matter, or Caro, or Sui/Han or Tarasova/Morozov etc etc If a skater can wow the audience and judges without the quads, the components will be still high. The problem with a women scoring system (and this is the greatest paradox to me) is because components don't have that much contribution to the final scores as in the men skating (because of the different factoring), when in general women more involved themselves in a programme as a whole/PCS than men. At this point of the figure skating development i don't see a reason why rules and the scoring system are not the same for both genders (and if the components are factored the same way, for example, Anna would win over Maia, or be on pair with her score).

 

[LiamForeman]

Do all of the Tutberidze skaters have to get their dresses made by the same dressmaker? I assume there is an agreement for Olga to provide all the dresses for the team.

However, I do really think it would help the girls stand out from each other if they had a more distinctive style.

The dresses this year all do look very similar to each other and very clearly all made by the same designer. Almost a bit like a Tutberidze uniform.

I think at one point, there something good about clearly being dressed like a Tutberidze skater, but there’s now been a few ‘generations’ of the girls come through looking like that, so it has had its expiration date.

A Lisa McKinnon style dress or something clearly made elsewhere etc would go a long way to make Kostornaya or Shcherbakova stand out more and look more senior and unique.

However I don’t know if that’s an option. And I will say that I know the girls like Olgas dresses because they are very functional (very light, simple to put on, can’t malfunction etc)

All I know is that if I had a daughter in skating, her dresses would be made by the designer for the Korean team. Their dresses are all standouts.

 

[karina17]

Do all of the Tutberidze skaters have to get their dresses made by the same dressmaker? I assume there is an agreement for Olga to provide all the dresses for the team.

However, I do really think it would help the girls stand out from each other if they had a more distinctive style.

The dresses this year all do look very similar to each other and very clearly all made by the same designer. Almost a bit like a Tutberidze uniform.

I think at one point, there something good about clearly being dressed like a Tutberidze skater, but there’s now been a few ‘generations’ of the girls come through looking like that, so it has had its expiration date.

A Lisa McKinnon style dress or something clearly made elsewhere etc would go a long way to make Kostornaya or Shcherbakova stand out more and look more senior and unique.

However I don’t know if that’s an option. And I will say that I know the girls like Olgas dresses because they are very functional (very light, simple to put on, can’t malfunction etc)

It doesn't seem like they're only allowed to have dresses from Olga, or at least it didn't use to be that way. I remember that Kamila and Anna had one dress each made by Milena Bobkova in the 19-20 season - Kamila's Exogenesis and Anna's Firebird. And Anna once mentioned that that dress was very heavy for her to jump in, but I'm not sure if that was because of the costume-changing mechanism or because of the way Bobkova makes dresses. Either way it could be a factor, I guess.

Edit: Evgenia is currently still getting her exhibition dresses made by Bobkova, including the purple Alegria dress and the ones she's been wearing for that TV show she's on right now.

 

[Artemisa]

For cleaner and more difficult programmes of course yes, but more difficult is not only related to the jumps/quads. Ask Jason Brown for that matter, or Caro, or Sui/Han or Tarasova/Morozov etc etc If a skater can wow the audience and judges without the quads, the components will be still high. The problem with a women scoring system (and this is the greatest paradox to me) is because components don't have that much contribution to the final scores as in the men skating (because of the different factoring), when in general women more involved themselves in a programme as a whole/PCS than men. At this point of the figure skating development i don't see a reason why rules and the scoring system are not the same for both genders (and if the components are factored the same way, for example, Anna would win over Maia, or be on pair with her score).

The problem is that Anna doesn't have a wow program or is a wow skater (don't get me wrong she is one of the best russian skaterers, strong will, difficult programs, almost perfect but she isn't wow ...)...she isn't jason brown with sinnerman that makes you want to give all the PCs (and i'm not a fan of Brown but that sinnerman program is almost perfect) .. Kostner had in her time a very good difficult tech and had a "womanly" skating ... and T/M they are knowing for her difficult tech .. they are the few or only that do a quad twist lift ..
And Anna e Maia are both of the same team ... so the same way one get the PCs the other get probably the same ....

 

[Jontor]

For cleaner and more difficult programmes of course yes, but more difficult is not only related to the jumps/quads. Ask Jason Brown for that matter, or Caro, or Sui/Han or Tarasova/Morozov etc etc If a skater can wow the audience and judges without the quads, the components will be still high. The problem with a women scoring system (and this is the greatest paradox to me) is because components don't have that much contribution to the final scores as in the men skating (because of the different factoring), when in general women more involved themselves in a programme as a whole/PCS than men. At this point of the figure skating development i don't see a reason why rules and the scoring system are not the same for both genders (and if the components are factored the same way, for example, Anna would win over Maia, or be on pair with her score).

Yes, I think after this season there will be significant changes in rules. Hopefully quads will be allowed in the short (and 3A instead of 2A for juniors) and the PCS factoring will change.

However, I did some calculations last year and I found that with the same factoring as Men no results woulds be different. You have to raise it to 1.2 or even 1.4 for the PCS to be a deciding factor.

 

[sclloyd]

What has landing quads got to do with feminism? Men with higher tech tend to get higher pcs too. Judges have always given extra pcs for cleaner and more difficult programs. So why would judges doing the same for ladies somehow equate to some hidden feminism propaganda?

The Olympic Games have as of late become an exceptional ground for promoting political ideologies. This is not lost on Trusova who is frequently asked to relate her jumping expertise back to her experience as a woman— I mean maybe I missed something but I don’t think baby Trusova was trying to hammer out quads because she wanted to be one of the men. From my interpretation she wants to break records and if that includes putting her on par with men, then there you go. I wouldn’t put it past the ISU promotional team to be like “how do we say these girls are not breaking the barriers of their own sport, but rather, sticking it to the men!” Especially I think this because Sasha has tons of quads but never got such favorable PCS boosts for them and in the past it’s been a discussion of “oh her PCS are that low because she fell” when now Kamila and Maia have given performances which are not clean technically and have not been penalized the same way. They are clearly promoting ultra-c for the Olympics, whether that comes at the cost of artistic and choreographic abilities.

Edit: I’ll also add that while they are jumping more rotations the quality of them is not exactly “high”. Sasha I think is the only one who has really good quads that actually look like the rest of her jumps. Anna is a close second, followed by Samodelkina on a good day. I’ll leave Veronika out for now because I think her technique is still evolving and she has some pretty rough landings. Maia lands really rough too, and her and Kamila both have axis issues. Never mind the bad combo wobbles. Rika has axis issues also, but there is some flow out of her jumps so that’s good I suppose. Point being: the one who should be getting the PCS boost for her quads, Sasha, has not! So I don’t think that we can say “it’s just a boost for a more complex program being executed well”. We’d have to see how Sasha is scored against other Russian ladies and how Daria is this season, though, before analyzing much further.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yes, I think after this season there will be significant changes in rules. Hopefully quads will be allowed in the short (and 3A instead of 2A for juniors) and the PCS factoring will change.

However, I did some calculations last year and I found that with the same factoring as Men no results woulds be different. You have to raise it to 1.2 or even 1.4 for the PCS to be a deciding factor.

My point was that components should matter at least the same as in the men skating, when (to my subjective opinion) women skaters in general are invested more in a programme as a whole than men. But 'reality' is different. If you are looking at the free skating protocols, men components are usually on pair or even higher than their TES and bringing them more points to the final score, while with the women is usually quite the opposite. It looks like men are more of a program components skaters, while women are more of a technical elements skaters I'm not against women jumping quads, that's for sure, but you need to value their components too.

 

[Amei]

Good details and I agree with most of it. In 2018 Alina was on the way up. Now Maia is on the way up. Kamila is still on the way up. It will be hard for the other Russian ladies as fantastic as they are to overcome both of these 15 year old phenomenon's this year. now Liza certainly has another contender to deal with for the Olympic team 3rd spot. That's not what she needed.

In a sense she came out a bit of a loser on the Budapest trophy with Shcherbakova's score. Finlandia had generous judging especially compared to Budapest. Shcherbakova had her jumps gone over by that panel with a fine tooth comb (and a bit ridiculous on some of the calls) and got several edge calls, q's and the fall on her opening quad flip - her TES after GOEs (which there weren't a lot of) was 76.17, 75.17 if you want to account for the 1 point deduction on the quad fall. Tutkamysheva at a generous Finlandia was only given 1 q on her opening triple axel, her TES after GOEs was 78.55. It really highlights how difficult a layout Shcherbakova truly has and how easy of a layout Tuktamysheva has in comparison.

Well, I think Maiia can say goodbye to the Olympic spot if she can't go to the GPF. So then it won't matter. Still, at least the scoring trends will be interesting through the GP series... 70 debut PCS is HUGE.

Given the depth of the ladies field in Russia, I kinda wonder if they use the GPF participants to whittle down the field of candidates for the Olympic Team, where no GPF means no Olympics unless they win Nationals.

And Maia took a lot of crap last season let’s not forget. She had responded well.

Regardless of who you are rooting for you had to be cheering that she stepped out of the first quad toe and had the guts to go for the combo with the second quad toe because if she faltered on the quad toe and couldn't get a second jump off she would have been hammered for a repeat solo quad